Teachers' Work-To-Rule

[Skytrain]

Originally posted by sexualchocolate
Don't ruin a good forum

+SC

For once I will agree with SC

Tiner,

Anymore from your point of view on teachers, etc...

[tiner]

well said SC...unlike others i enjoy a good debate and am pleased to have paricipated in this one................................

BUT:

1. nothing new. have heard all this shit that has been said against teachers here at home and in BC. used the same arguments here as at home.

2. lets widen it and get a little philosophical.dollar terms in our society determine value.what does this tell us about what our society values? the ability to sue? the imperativeness of having working computers? hockey? baseball? football? i am by no means suggesting that this money should be(or could be) shifted i am not that niave.

i do , however, suffer from being an idealist and an optimist.decide what society you want to be in. one that operates as a community or a group of individuals who dont care about each other and only the almighty dollar(yay the economic rationalists)

BTW am leaving vancouver in 3 hours byeall!!!!

[deb]

I haven't added anything to this thread thus far because, like Tiner, I have heard all the arguments before. I have been a teacher for almost 10 years and have worked in a number of different facets of the profession.

I would like to see teaching given the respect other professions are given. Unfortunately, Skytrain, you are right. Society does indeed measure success and professionalism using money as its yardstick. That being said, I'm sure you can appreciate that, given that people know how little teachers are paid in comparison to other professionals, the little respect they have for the job. Society equates earning potential with usefulness.

On a similar note, society wishes to measure output and then pay accordingly. I would like to know how you would go about determining a fair and accurate scale that takes into account intellectual development, maturity levels, social status, parental support, peer influence, puberty, as well as reflecting teacher competence. Personally, I would applaud such a scale. There are far too many teachers and administrators in the field who are incredibly incompetent. Of course, these are the ones who were often attracted to teaching because of the holidays........

[Skytrain]

All being said about withholding of services by teaching staff, is it true that sports teams (ie basketball) are not allowed to use the Gym in their own school? Because they don't have a school teacher coaching? Someone clarify. OK, teachers have temp. stopped coaching, volunteer coaches are stepping up and now the use of the Gym (or other school facilities) are being taken away. Are teachers worried that job action on 'extra activities' won't have any affect?

skytraininthedarkwaitingforthelight

[Regs]

Skytrain,

I believe the use of gyms and such hinges on insurance and liability stuff... that's what I recall reading the last couple of days anyhow.

~TB.

[Skytrain]

Originally posted by Regs
Skytrain,

I believe the use of gyms and such hinges on insurance and liability stuff... that's what I recall reading the last couple of days anyhow.

~TB.

Makes sense, but could also be taken as a loop hole for leverage in instances such as this.

[Keeper]

I don't think so. It's very straight-forward: if some kid plays basketball and breaks his ankle, or better yet, damages the building, who's going to be around from the school admin to witness and document the event? Liabilty, plain and simple -- leverage doesn't come into it.

[deb]

I'm not sure what the law dictates in BC, but I know in Western Australia teachers are deemed to have duty of care over students from the minute they step out of their front door to go to school (if their own parent/s is not present) to the moment they get back home when school has finished. If they are on the premises outside normal school hours, teachers (or more accurately, the Education Department of Western Australia) can still be held liable. This has obviously presented more than its fair share of problems, but it is as the law is interpreted. I don't deem this to be a loophole at all - it is a very serious matter and could result in large lawsuits. I would assume that, if a similar stance is taken, teachers in BC would be wise to limit the use of the schools' facilities.

[Regs]

I think the point being made is that it isn't the teachers decision, at least not here in BC.

~TB.

[tiner]

skytrain
you still seem to be under the impression that teachers actually want the kids to be adversely effected.
the action is only taken due to a lake of reasonable negotiation and if activities could continue with volunteers then that would be great.
liability is not loophole but a reality.teachers resent needing to use this kind of leverage but are given no alternative.

do you get this point yet?
let me clarify.........teachers LIKE kids and helping. we also LIKE earning a respectable wage and being treated with respect by our employer with decent bargaining that does not deteriorate like this.
ok????? please return when you GET THIS and when you have something that i have not heard before to say!

[Dude]

I think the problem with Skytrain is that he thinks we're talking about the garbage strike.

One comment he's made continues to get my back up, and that was:

Everyone's replaceable! Whether you like it or not, if you leave your job someone else is going to scoop it up.

The big problem here is that he's correct. To clarify: that is a bad thing in this situation, not a good thing. In the cases of most other civil servants jobs, you can recycle employees without having a great deal of negative effect- if any- on the operation of the sector. On the flip side, let's assume we loose some of our better teachers to the US through aggressive recruiting methods, what is in line to replace them? The likely answer is that an inexperienced teacher will fill the void. That teacher may turn out to be as good as the quality of teacher we just lost, or that replacement could turn out to be a dud who doesn't inspire our kids.

My point is, we are already in a shortage here. We can't use the laws of "supply & demand" in negotiating with this profession.

It really seems British Columbians have a mentality that says "why should I have to pay more...I don't get paid that much!". We seem to have the deepest pockets in North America. Perhaps it's because we've been witness to some of the worse examples of project spending / wasting the whole continent has seen. I don't know. I do know this: the site worker down at Vancouver Wharves (owned by BC Rail, a Provincial crown corporation) pulls in over $50K / year- and that's if they have fairly low seniority. Can you honestly tell me that a guy who drives a loader should be paid higher than a teacher?

[Keeper]

An aspect of this whole issue which really suprises me, is the lack of parents' concern over their children's academic education. I mean, they seem to have no problem in giving it lip service, however, they don't seem to get really concerned until their children aren't able to play basketball after school.

Parents haven't received report cards or spoken to their children's teachers (unless they've visited the school during school hours, of course) since November. Many parents have no idea how their children are doing academically. But now that extracurricular activities are yanked, talk shows are filled with nervous parents, newspapers shout headlines "DAY 8: Students affected action", and students walk out of classes.

And people wonder why professional athletes make more than healthcare providers. Look at the examples that are being made: refuse to send report cards and we'll hum-and-haw; prevent my kids from throwing a ball around, and we'll scream bloody murder.

[Yoda]

I have a general question to any teachers, or even those who know teachers.
How many sick days does a teacher get in a year?
I had heard that they get 200 paid sick days a year.
Is that true?
Does the number of sick days depend on seniority or does everyone get that many?

[Screw You Captain]

How many sick days does a teacher get in a year?

Yoda, you have been misled. The school year is actually slightly less than 200 days, so even our esteemed union leaders would find that a bit excessive.

I think the norm in BC is about 15 days per year. The 200 day figure might refer to the fact that they accumulate from year to year, very helpful if you break your back or get cancer. If you need more time than your sick days allow, you can go on long-term disability which is paid for by the union.

Cheers,

SYC

[tiner]

keeper, when i was working in vancouver and the action started i was dying to see the reaction because i was at school that had VERY interested parents (ie those who think they can tell YOU if their child failed or not) and ........ nothing..

amazing. perhaps this means the time we (i) take to write meaningful , individualised comments for their kids is wasted. hmmmmm

[Yoda]

Thanks for the info.
I kind of figured that was a little excessive. I obviously didn't get the full story.
I did hear though that teachers get 1 sick day for every 18 teaching days and they can be accumulated.
I guess after long enough someone could accumulate 200 days.

Cheers.

[Reccos]

Although you acted quite lejune the other night, I do agree with your observations concerning how we value the non-academic and how this translates into professional sports.

I think it is generally getting better but we still worship pro athletes and actors/actresses far too much relative to their societal contribution. It has always amazed me that we don't place a higher economic value on the people and professions who work with youth from day care and early childhood educators through high school.

Just an observation.

[Reccos]

What I failed to say is that extra-curricular activities are still a major part of what kids do in and after school. Some of this stuff affects their careers later and it is more than just sports which kids can still get at the community level with some exceptions.

I think kids and parents have a right to be disappointed if the kids' activities in plays, drama and music get cancelled as many of these kids will go onto higher level studies in these areas.

It may be misplaced for some kids, but the total package is what kids remember long after graduation from high school. It is good if they don't forget the value of the education at the same time.

[tiner]

on top of that for some kids sport in particular may be the only time they experience success at school and so it is what keeps them going.

this is one of the reasons i enjoy running sporting activities, often you get to see kids in a completely different light. it is really satisfying but time consuming!!!!

[Skytrain]

Any thoughts on the Government stepping in to settle the dispute?