FVSL vs VMSL - the traditional comparison volume #3

Guinness · 10-18-2006, 08:23 PM

Quote:

posted in another thread by:LION
Most of the top players in the Valley move on to the VMSL.
period.
it might never change.

I wouldn't say it's as cut and dry as that...
From the early 90's most of the top talent from the Valley (in youth) went to the College or Uni ranks first... Then from there, they would filter into the VMSL... UBC and SFU players (if from the Valley?) were now accustomed to going into Vancouver/Bby for top flight football... Their school teammates (if not from the Valley) would end up there, so the best talent from the sticks would stay "in town" to play...
Ex. 1996 Langara's best players were all from ND (Skinner, AK, Tish, etc.) Previously they all played for Delta Metro under John Mantai (sp) in the FVSL, but then all went to Firemen VMSL with John...
This type of filtering into the VMSL from Valley grown talent was very typical and made the Metro League a higher caliber league... Back then the best teams were made up of many Valley players...
Metro Ford - Keith Izzat & Graham Brown
Firemen - Ritchie Pasqua, Neil Wilkenson, Todd Bailey & Steve Millar
North Shore Pegasus - Rob Reed, Nial Thompson, Regs & Troy Wood
To name a few of the Provincial Cup winners in the 90's...

1998-99 the FVSL's top two teams were awarded VMSL berths... Surrey United and Surrey FC... United stayed up and is now one of the perenial powerhouses each year (90% Valley talent)... FC went down finishing ahead of three teams, but bottom of their side...
Since 2000 the better Valley players are staying closer to home... Surrey United has just been a place to go for young players looking to play at the highest level locally... Others have been choosing teams in the Valley like Langley, PAU, Delta & ND Lions as FVSL teams looking to keep more talent at home...

IMO, the balance of the league's will shift over the next 10 years as housing is a joke in the greater Vancouver area and expansion is rapid all over the Valley... It wouldn't be a stretch to suggest a super league of sorts or a team like SU coming back to play in the FVSL...

The FVSL must be better, after all our allstar squad beat the Whitecaps!!! Did the VMSL's??? (even with Valley boys Millar, Skinner, Blakeway and Dormer in the line up)

Dude · 10-19-2006, 09:43 AM

The fact is that you can't dispute results: until a FVSL team makes a good run in Provincials while beating the top VMSL and Island teams, our best teams will always be considered second fiddle. Like LFC2 stated last year: the best teams in the Valley simply don't have the top flight competition week-in, week-out. It doesn't matter what the talent is on paper if the bar isn't raised as high.

Plus, you can't argue that the VMSL has been a better un league under Azzie. Hopefully our new execs can pave the way for similar results.

I agree with a lot of what you say regarding the future, I'm just reserving optimism. Valley youth is getting stronger and stronger. Clubs like Port Moody and Abbotsford will be very good for the Valley. The player develops at the club level, goes off to University, then has a place to come home to play. These younger clubs and players will hopefully be around the Valley for a while, and help actually raise the bar, instead of what we have now: a second tier Premier division.

**Regs** · 10-19-2006, 11:11 AM

I too subscribe to the belief that the balance of 'power' will eventually shift to the valley but a couple of recent trends are beginning to eat away at that...

TEAMS are leaving the valley to join the VMSL (Hurricanes last year, Delta Metro this year).

bored · 10-19-2006, 12:09 PM

For whatever reason the Valley has not improved. It is strange to me that it doesn't but I don't see any great improvement. I always hated that the Valley accepted being not as good. Example of this is after an all-star game a few years back we were happy that we kept it close. That annoyed the shit out of me but guys were happy we didn't get beat badly when I think we could have won the game. I haven't seen any games this year but last year Poco had a bunch of young guys starting that 5 years ago could barely make the second team - these guys hadn't improved the level had dropped.

I too believe the balance of power will shift, it has to, because of monetary reason and geograhpical reason but I don't get why the level just doesn't improve out in the valley.

I could be wrong as I am removed from the league and I am basing my thoughts on my experiences and watching only a few games. Year after year there are a few good teams and a bunch of mediocre ones and a couple of shit teams. The league should get stronger and stronger. As mentioned above hopefully Port Moody and Abbotsford will help to improve the overalll competition. More good teams should make everyone better.

Gurps · 10-19-2006, 01:08 PM

Anyone know how the Cloverdale Rowdies are doing this year?

Sage · 10-19-2006, 01:18 PM

Jesus titty-fcuking, can't we just wait till it's BC's again before we start this debate?!!! Then we can get KNVB to tell us how really really really bad we are.

Moderators, lock it up!

**knvb** · 10-19-2006, 01:23 PM

See, do you all see how this always fcuking happens? Gurps started this bullshit. Gurps god dammit, Gurps. I've said nothing.

Fcuk'n hell...

Sage · 10-19-2006, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by knvb

Gurps started this bullshit. I've said nothing.

Except you've posted about it 6 times since Gurps brought it up

Gurps · 10-19-2006, 01:43 PM

KNVB told me to bring this topic up last time I saw him and Walks at the Roxy.

**Regs** · 10-19-2006, 01:53 PM

Actually there was some good, mature points being discussed until each of you fcuked it up.

Kudos.

**italian_stallion21** · 10-19-2006, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gurps

Anyone know how the Cloverdale Rowdies are doing this year?

They suck

badknees7 · 10-19-2006, 11:21 PM

The tough battles every week can only improve oneself playing football.The valley teams just don't have enough quality players.We see it every year during the BC's.Fvsl out 1st round!!(unless it's anotherfvsl opponent)The high calibre football week in and week out keeps you sharp.Hopefully the gap can close up in the future,but time will tell.

Osame bin madden · 10-20-2006, 10:17 AM

Every year we (FVSL) hope one of the fvsl teams makes it all the way but it never happens, no-one can dispute that. Clearly the vmsl has been a lot better over all. It seems like the fvsl has 2 or 3 teams that could compete from week to week in the vmsl but in recent memory I cannot think of fvsl team that won 3 or 4 games in a row in a short tournament like the B.Cs. How did Chilliwack do last year? My guess is with the population growing fast out in the valley and with some good youth programs that now exist, some good young players will stay. I think the key is the senior program has to have a good relationship with the youth program, that way players can slowly see where one day they will end up. Poco has that now and that is crucial if you want to keep the good talent. Of course if your senior program is not any good, they (kids) will leave..

Guinness · 10-20-2006, 10:38 AM

Quote:

posted by:Badknees7
The high calibre football week in and week out keeps you sharp.

I couldn't agree more, but that trend is changing... Most teams could take a point from most others on any given day in the VMSL... However, the talent pool is not as deep as it was and teams are very thin... You no longer have teams with 18 starters battling it out in training...
IMO, the VMSL is made up of 2 sides, but could easily be divided into 2 divisions...
Premier "A" - SU, Clanbus, MF, Sporting, Inter, Sap & AFC.
Premier "B" - Indo, Norvan, Van Olympics, West Van, Temple, Firetown & Croatia.
Obviously, Sap, AFC, Firetown and Croatia are all comparable, but a line needed to be drawn in the sand... Sorry

Teams like AFC and Croatia will struggle one year and re-emerge the next... Depnding on who comes and goes... Fcuking saloon doors... I like the youth at Croatia, but even they can't be loyal!!! The younger generation are not willing to work hard without immediate reward (playing time)... They've been spoon fed and been told they are "great players" from youth soccer... We are seeing more suitcases in that league (ie) Larrson, Millar & AK... Those guys used to be an exception and now the loyalties are gone...
My point, the FVSL is improving over all and the VMSL is slowly withering... You will see the shift occur within 5-10 years... Fields are horrible, they don't have perminant (or adaquate) training facilities and the stability of clubs are a joke (except a few)...

Today the VMSL is still a more competitive league.

Sandman · 10-20-2006, 12:30 PM

Guinness,

In order for there to be a "shift", there has to be momentum from "the other side". You've eloquently stated the incompetencies of the VMSL - But what about telling us why the grass will be so greener in the valley? Why are players and teams moving to the VMSL? What is the FVSL doing that in five years will make them best amateur soccer league around? After all that's what you are saying. It has to be more than training facilities and nicer fields

Sandman

LION · 10-20-2006, 03:50 PM

I think he said before,,
-cost of housing
-travel time
-travel expenses (gas,time)
-youth and mens tied together (so after college, they go back to there club)

I can't agree with Guinness 100 % though. I could see this possibly happening... maybe..
but we would have to see the "shift" now to see this happen in 5 years or so.
And if it is a shift.. it really is going unoticeable.

with the likes of Rizal graduating on, The whole prem. side of Delta Metro, The young up and comers, the Hurricanes.

for example/
Stedman, Omerod, and you could maybe say the Greensides from Sporting maybe even the Dormers are from the valley here. and these are guys who have made this decision just in the last 3 years or so. (to stay/play in the VMSL)
As well as guys on many teams.

Just the Delta Prem. move killed the "Shift".
They had tons of young talent coming up. There cat side is now .500 in the Valley prem. league. With the top scorer now scoring for Surrey United.

for the valley to be the top soccer around. The clubs in the top 10 have to be first class. or at least 80% of them. Not 40%. Facilities. Paid coaches/serious coaches. Serious goals.
These clubs/coaches have to sell this to there guys.. as to have them stay in the valley.

Or the league itself wanting to be there. as to do everything in there power to keep teams like Delta Metro around. And sell the "shift" to teams like Delta Metro.

wow. I just went off.

LION

**Regs** · 10-20-2006, 05:13 PM

Wow that was painful.
Lion must stick to haikus.
Seriously..

(had to add a dot to get the magic 5-7-5 combo)

Aside from that, I agree. I think.

**knvb** · 10-20-2006, 05:54 PM

That's a whole new level of Haikus...

Lion my brain hurts

your post was very painful

Fcuk I need a beer

LION · 10-20-2006, 05:57 PM

was it that bad.
i don't get it.
really.

Guinness · 10-20-2006, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Sandman
It has to be more than training facilities and nicer fields.

LION, summed it up in an Italian dialec, so I try to elaborate...
Osame made a fair comment about club structure... In the Valley many Youth Soccer Clubs are also represented in the mens divisions... Not just playing under the same umbrella anymore, but having their U-18 or U-21's training together/beside the top team in the club...
They've spend thousands of dollars on professional coaching introducing their youth players to more than just soccer acadamies, but modern technical training... Individually and team based systems with structure in defence and in attack...
SU (technically still in the Valley) pay Tony Waiters and Derek Posse to direct their youth... The Abbotsford club have had Colin Miller their for a few years now... Randy Samual has done a great job with Delta Metro...PAU have the Ajit Briach soccer Acadamy, the list goes on...

My point, soon enough clubs will be filling their mens roster with players from their youth system... SU took Metro Fords model years ago and now it has been more than duplicated all across the board...
Columbus have a functional relationship with SFU, but where is Sporting, Inter, AFC, Firemen or Sapperton getting their players from???
Investing in our youth today, building for a strong future tomorrow... (I heard that from KNVB's mom).

View Poll Results: FVSL or VMSL... Is the balance shifting???
Yes, the Valley is clearly improving	10	26.32%
Yes, the Metro League is clearly deteriorating	7	18.42%
No chance, the Valley is brutal	12	31.58%
No, the Metro League is still miles ahead	18	47.37%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 38. You may not vote on this poll

10-19-2006, 09:43 AM	#2 (permalink)
Dude Member Joined: Jul 2001 Location: Where my kids are Posts: 8,296 Images: 66 TTP Friends: (3)	Re: FVSL vs VMSL - the traditional comparison volume #3 The fact is that you can't dispute results: until a FVSL team makes a good run in Provincials while beating the top VMSL and Island teams, our best teams will always be considered second fiddle. Like LFC2 stated last year: the best teams in the Valley simply don't have the top flight competition week-in, week-out. It doesn't matter what the talent is on paper if the bar isn't raised as high. Plus, you can't argue that the VMSL has been a better un league under Azzie. Hopefully our new execs can pave the way for similar results. I agree with a lot of what you say regarding the future, I'm just reserving optimism. Valley youth is getting stronger and stronger. Clubs like Port Moody and Abbotsford will be very good for the Valley. The player develops at the club level, goes off to University, then has a place to come home to play. These younger clubs and players will hopefully be around the Valley for a while, and help actually raise the bar, instead of what we have now: a second tier Premier division. __________________ Om nom nom nom... Last edited by Dude; 10-19-2006 at 09:48 AM.

10-19-2006, 11:11 AM	#3 (permalink)
Regs Respect & Honour A Total Bastard Joined: Jun 2001 Location: TTP Headquarters Posts: 12,083 Blog Entries: 1 Images: 233 TTP Friends: (12)	Re: FVSL vs VMSL - the traditional comparison volume #3 I too subscribe to the belief that the balance of 'power' will eventually shift to the valley but a couple of recent trends are beginning to eat away at that... TEAMS are leaving the valley to join the VMSL (Hurricanes last year, Delta Metro this year). __________________ Take the piss (out of someone) vb. British -- to mock, deride, poke fun (at). This vulgarism has been in widespread use since the late 1940s. The original idea evoked by the expression was that of deflating someone, recalling the description of a self-important blusterer as 'all piss and wind.'

10-19-2006, 12:09 PM	#4 (permalink)
bored Member Joined: Oct 2001 Location: Parts Unknown Posts: 916 TTP Friends: (0)	Re: FVSL vs VMSL - the traditional comparison volume #3 For whatever reason the Valley has not improved. It is strange to me that it doesn't but I don't see any great improvement. I always hated that the Valley accepted being not as good. Example of this is after an all-star game a few years back we were happy that we kept it close. That annoyed the shit out of me but guys were happy we didn't get beat badly when I think we could have won the game. I haven't seen any games this year but last year Poco had a bunch of young guys starting that 5 years ago could barely make the second team - these guys hadn't improved the level had dropped. I too believe the balance of power will shift, it has to, because of monetary reason and geograhpical reason but I don't get why the level just doesn't improve out in the valley. I could be wrong as I am removed from the league and I am basing my thoughts on my experiences and watching only a few games. Year after year there are a few good teams and a bunch of mediocre ones and a couple of shit teams. The league should get stronger and stronger. As mentioned above hopefully Port Moody and Abbotsford will help to improve the overalll competition. More good teams should make everyone better.

10-19-2006, 01:08 PM	#5 (permalink)
Gurps Member Joined: Mar 2002 Location: SFU West Mall Posts: 901 TTP Friends: (1)	Re: FVSL vs VMSL - the traditional comparison volume #3 Anyone know how the Cloverdale Rowdies are doing this year?

10-19-2006, 01:18 PM	#6 (permalink)
Sage Member Joined: Jan 2002 Location: All over the shaaaap Posts: 442 Images: 1 TTP Friends: (0)	Re: FVSL vs VMSL - the traditional comparison volume #3 Jesus titty-fcuking, can't we just wait till it's BC's again before we start this debate?!!! Then we can get KNVB to tell us how really really really bad we are. Moderators, lock it up!

10-19-2006, 01:23 PM	#7 (permalink)
knvb Kick'n it old school... A Total Bastard Joined: Aug 2001 Location: Langley Posts: 10,593 Images: 229 TTP Friends: (6)	Re: FVSL vs VMSL - the traditional comparison volume #3 See, do you all see how this always fcuking happens? Gurps started this bullshit. Gurps god dammit, Gurps. I've said nothing. Fcuk'n hell...

10-19-2006, 01:43 PM	#9 (permalink)
Gurps Member Joined: Mar 2002 Location: SFU West Mall Posts: 901 TTP Friends: (1)	Re: FVSL vs VMSL - the traditional comparison volume #3 KNVB told me to bring this topic up last time I saw him and Walks at the Roxy.

10-19-2006, 01:53 PM	#10 (permalink)
Regs Respect & Honour A Total Bastard Joined: Jun 2001 Location: TTP Headquarters Posts: 12,083 Blog Entries: 1 Images: 233 TTP Friends: (12)	Re: FVSL vs VMSL - the traditional comparison volume #3 Actually there was some good, mature points being discussed until each of you fcuked it up. Kudos. __________________ Take the piss (out of someone) vb. British -- to mock, deride, poke fun (at). This vulgarism has been in widespread use since the late 1940s. The original idea evoked by the expression was that of deflating someone, recalling the description of a self-important blusterer as 'all piss and wind.'

10-19-2006, 11:21 PM	#12 (permalink)
badknees7 Member Joined: Sep 2006 Posts: 166 TTP Friends: (1)	Re: FVSL vs VMSL - the traditional comparison volume #3 The tough battles every week can only improve oneself playing football.The valley teams just don't have enough quality players.We see it every year during the BC's.Fvsl out 1st round!!(unless it's anotherfvsl opponent)The high calibre football week in and week out keeps you sharp.Hopefully the gap can close up in the future,but time will tell.

10-20-2006, 10:17 AM	#13 (permalink)
Osame bin madden Member Joined: Feb 2002 Location: kids games Posts: 443 TTP Friends: (0)	Re: FVSL vs VMSL - the traditional comparison volume #3 Every year we (FVSL) hope one of the fvsl teams makes it all the way but it never happens, no-one can dispute that. Clearly the vmsl has been a lot better over all. It seems like the fvsl has 2 or 3 teams that could compete from week to week in the vmsl but in recent memory I cannot think of fvsl team that won 3 or 4 games in a row in a short tournament like the B.Cs. How did Chilliwack do last year? My guess is with the population growing fast out in the valley and with some good youth programs that now exist, some good young players will stay. I think the key is the senior program has to have a good relationship with the youth program, that way players can slowly see where one day they will end up. Poco has that now and that is crucial if you want to keep the good talent. Of course if your senior program is not any good, they (kids) will leave..

10-20-2006, 12:30 PM	#15 (permalink)
Sandman Member Joined: Jul 2001 Location: Cameron Indoor Arena Posts: 517 TTP Friends: (2)	Re: FVSL vs VMSL - the traditional comparison volume #3 Guinness, In order for there to be a "shift", there has to be momentum from "the other side". You've eloquently stated the incompetencies of the VMSL - But what about telling us why the grass will be so greener in the valley? Why are players and teams moving to the VMSL? What is the FVSL doing that in five years will make them best amateur soccer league around? After all that's what you are saying. It has to be more than training facilities and nicer fields Sandman

10-20-2006, 03:50 PM	#16 (permalink)
LION Member Joined: Mar 2002 Location: East Van Posts: 655 TTP Friends: (0)	Re: FVSL vs VMSL - the traditional comparison volume #3 I think he said before,, -cost of housing -travel time -travel expenses (gas,time) -youth and mens tied together (so after college, they go back to there club) I can't agree with Guinness 100 % though. I could see this possibly happening... maybe.. but we would have to see the "shift" now to see this happen in 5 years or so. And if it is a shift.. it really is going unoticeable. with the likes of Rizal graduating on, The whole prem. side of Delta Metro, The young up and comers, the Hurricanes. for example/ Stedman, Omerod, and you could maybe say the Greensides from Sporting maybe even the Dormers are from the valley here. and these are guys who have made this decision just in the last 3 years or so. (to stay/play in the VMSL) As well as guys on many teams. Just the Delta Prem. move killed the "Shift". They had tons of young talent coming up. There cat side is now .500 in the Valley prem. league. With the top scorer now scoring for Surrey United. for the valley to be the top soccer around. The clubs in the top 10 have to be first class. or at least 80% of them. Not 40%. Facilities. Paid coaches/serious coaches. Serious goals. These clubs/coaches have to sell this to there guys.. as to have them stay in the valley. Or the league itself wanting to be there. as to do everything in there power to keep teams like Delta Metro around. And sell the "shift" to teams like Delta Metro. wow. I just went off. LION Last edited by LION; 10-20-2006 at 03:56 PM.

10-20-2006, 05:13 PM	#17 (permalink)
Regs Respect & Honour A Total Bastard Joined: Jun 2001 Location: TTP Headquarters Posts: 12,083 Blog Entries: 1 Images: 233 TTP Friends: (12)	Re: FVSL vs VMSL - the traditional comparison volume #3 Wow that was painful. Lion must stick to haikus. Seriously.. (had to add a dot to get the magic 5-7-5 combo) Aside from that, I agree. I think. __________________ Take the piss (out of someone) vb. British -- to mock, deride, poke fun (at). This vulgarism has been in widespread use since the late 1940s. The original idea evoked by the expression was that of deflating someone, recalling the description of a self-important blusterer as 'all piss and wind.'

10-20-2006, 05:54 PM	#18 (permalink)
knvb Kick'n it old school... A Total Bastard Joined: Aug 2001 Location: Langley Posts: 10,593 Images: 229 TTP Friends: (6)	Re: FVSL vs VMSL - the traditional comparison volume #3 That's a whole new level of Haikus... Lion my brain hurts your post was very painful Fcuk I need a beer

10-20-2006, 05:57 PM	#19 (permalink)
LION Member Joined: Mar 2002 Location: East Van Posts: 655 TTP Friends: (0)	Re: FVSL vs VMSL - the traditional comparison volume #3 was it that bad. i don't get it. really.