Fvsl Discipline And Fines 2004/2005

[Coach]

After another terrible decision but our old and out dated dicipline board, I would love to know what other players and coaches think of our current system and board.
Our player was recently in a tackle during the first 30 seconds of a game.(the player recieves a red card)
Our player slid in and got the ball and also got a bite on the player.
Yes it was a hard tackle and yes he did get a bite on the player but here is my troubles begin.
The player in question should have recieved a yellow or possibly a red for the agressive tackle,but once again the FVSL discipline board goes over board on the suspention.
First time for this player in the FVSL to recieve a red card and the player gets 5 games.. That's right 5 games.
The ref's report says the player in question kicked the player in the stomach.
Once again false as the player who was kicked says," he was kicked in the shin and ankle area".
The player that is tackled gets up and plays the rest of the game without any seen limp.
Here is my question.
How can the league hand out such insane suspentions for players, and expect us to take them serious?
1)first red card
2)player is not hurt thank god, and plays on.
3)refs report is false and a lie. (both players atest to the foul being a low ankle tackle)
4)no linesman or any other league officials there.

Am i saying the foul should go unpunished, no 1 maybe 2 games.
But 5 games for a tackle that we saw happen twice more during our game.
I did some researching on the VMSL and the Island League, take a look at some of the reports.
The Island lists the foul and the penalty right on thier website.
(example- player 2259 is booked for dangerous tackle Red card- 2 games)
There are dozens of these just like this on the Island Website.
VMSL - a young Peg player knees a player in the bollocks and recieves-- two games.

I asked the league to re look at the case due to the False Ref Report and the insane Suspention.--------Case closed.

What happened to this new board that agrees that refs sometimes blow it and they are willing to work with the players and coaches.
Again another bunch of b.s.

What do coaches and players in our league think of our discipline system.

The system is a joke and what kind of player in England would ever recieve a suspention like this. We play by the same laws gentlemen.

Skip, Cainy, Dude, lfc2, Craftey, and so on. Please let your thoughts be known.

[crafty cokcney]

It does appear here, as in the past, that we in FVSL are subject to no rhyme or reason as to what to expect under the current discipine guidelines as set out by the league. I must agree that there is no consistency as to the punishments handed out from week to week. There are obviously guidelines that the FVSL follow, however it is their interpretation of the rules and associated punisments/suspensions that seem to lack clarity. BCSA is an option for you Coach with this particular case, however there is a cost.

The FVSL has codes for each infringement, be it yellow or red, and suspensions are handed out accordingly. Any intent to injure is an automatic 2 game with an open window to add games on depending on the severity, history etc. This is the bit that pisses everybody off, because is it a 2 or a 5 game suspension. Add some fisty cuffs during the fracus and your up to possibly 7 games. There is such a large window for interpretation that I believe, as you do Coach, that we and the league do need to revist this issue to give us all some clarity on what we can expect based on their interpretations.

Cheers


Cheers

[Coach]

Well said Craftey, it is the consistency that i am the most upset with.
They have no clue.

Yes we have gone to B.C. SOCCER on this one.

[crafty cokcney]

I don't blame you. When your trying to make run for a league title, Provincial berth etc. you can not lose quality players unnecessarily. I didn't see the tackle, but based on the info you have posted you probably have a case worth pursuing. If at all possible get a statement from both players involved regarding the incident. Be careful not to discredit the league too much as that will only piss off BCSA. Everybody makes mistakes.!

Good luck

Cheers

[Skip]

Coach,

You're obviously disgruntled, and it sounds like you have good reason to be.
I will comment on this matter later.....no time right now. Need a pre-game nap.

~Skip

ZzZzZzZzzzzzz............

[Stepchild]

Coach, I bitched last year when 2 guys attacked poor little me from behind. We all got tossed and the league gave everyone 3 games. No punishment for 3rd player in or for attacking me from behind (not in an internal violating way).
My beaf, we pay these guys to ref and expect a decent job. That includes a decent ref report, too many times does the report show up to the board inaccurate and incomplete. Could you imagine handing in a report at work in pencil and rubbish...........can you say fired. Ref's have 3 days to hand it in (I think) and then the board has a week to make a decision.

It is time the ref's become accountable as they demand us to be.

[Regs]

I've heard that the challenge in question was pretty nasty. Your mention of the player getting up and playing the rest of the match is a moot point.

5 games is pretty harsh but let's not make Studs out to be an angel here... he'd probably be the first to take issue with you attempting to paint him as some sort of pufta... "getting a bite"...



~Regs.

[Coach]

I hear you Regs, but 5 games is exactly my point.
This league has no consistancy and this suspention would not have been given out in any other league.
And yes he is an angel, first red in two years of playing in this league.

Point being is these fine gentlemen blew it as usual.

[Yoda]

I think as most have mentioned, interpretation is the key. The ref it going to write down whatever he sees or, after 3 days remembers, about the incident. I know in the past, if the ref really doesn't see what happens, his first interpretation of the incident is what he gets from the fouled players teammates yelling in his ear. "It was from behind, late, and studs up in his stomach". He obviously has no linesman to confer with so is left with whatever he can get out of what he thinks happened.

What was the carded players reaction? Could he have gotten more games for decent?

I imagine if the league got a report that said, "Joe Blow" committed a dangerous slide tackle on an opposing player, with studs up, from behind. He then began yelling and complaining at me and telling me i sucked and was shit and spit on my shoes." I'd say he was due a few more games than just a slide tackle would have gotten him.

Once again it's all in how the ref reports it.
Having the fouled player talk on your behalf is great, but i doubt the board wants people coming in with thier buddy from the other team and saying, "this is the guy i fouled and look, he's fine and said it wasn't a bad tackle". They would rather rule on it and be done with it.

I also agree with Regs about the player being able to continue to play. Once in a co-ed game i got sucker punched by a huge bohemeth, nearly broke my nose and i could bearly see out of either eye due to the swelling and red eye that came of it in meer seconds. But i continued to play. It was definately worth 3-7 games for sure, but because i was able to continue playing, the ref just pretended to not see it.
My point here is that you can't base suspension on whether you break a bone or not. Most guys play with the injury (at least at our age anyways), so it's hard to take that into account

[Yoda]

Wow, did i type that much?

[Coach]

Yoda, not that it matters but the fine young fellow walked off the park with not one word said.
He then walked up to me and said "Sorry"
He just got tossed 30 seconds into a big match.

[Skip]

Originally Posted by Yoda

i got sucker punched by a girl, nearly broke my nose and i could bearly see out of either eye due to the swelling and red eye that came of it in meer seconds. But i continued to play. It was definately worth 3-7 games for sure

hmmm....this is good piss-take material me thinks. In fact, it might be worthy of it's own thread: Yoda's Experiences with Gender Issues on the Pitch . What do you think boys?


Coach,

I never saw the tackle, but I have heard conflicting reports on it's severity from various sides of the fence. 5 games sounds harsh to me, especially if it's his first red in years. Unfortunately, some players have 'reputations' and histories that follow them around. Referees are more free with a card for those who are in this situation IMO. I'm not sure whether this might have been a factor in this player's card, and/or punishment.
I do think that the fact that the other guy got up after the tackle should have nothing to do with determining the number of games the guy sits though. Personally, I think if the tackle is ugly, and the intent to injure was there, the fine should reflect it regardless of the damage done to the player.

~Skip Out

[Dial 9-1-1]

Originally Posted by Yoda

Once again it's all in how the ref reports it.
Having the fouled player talk on your behalf is great, but i doubt the board wants people coming in with thier buddy from the other team and saying, "this is the guy i fouled and look, he's fine and said it wasn't a bad tackle". They would rather rule on it and be done with it.

Yoda...I can't believe I'm saying this, but....I disagree with you. Things happen so quickly that often refs miss something or think something was worse than it really was. On TV, how often have you seen a hit or foul at full speed and thought it was brutal, but then in slo-motion, you see that it really wasn't that bad or vice versa? If you can get the fouled person to come in and speak on your behalf, I think that speaks volumes. It would reinforce the fact that maybe the ref didn't see what he thought he did.

Originally Posted by Yoda

Once in a co-ed game i got sucker punched by a girl, nearly broke my nose and i could bearly see out of either eye due to the swelling and red eye that came of it in meer seconds. But i continued to play. It was definately worth 3-7 games for sure, but because i was able to continue playing, the ref just pretended to not see it.

Yoda...some things are best left unsaid. NEVER admit to such things just to make a point! Why couldn't you say that the above event happened to TheRob? I would have supported you and said that I saw it happen as well!
You're a moderator now...maybe you can go back and edit that post of yours.

For the record, from what I've heard (no prior history for molesting young boys; did not complain when he left the field in handcuffs; and molested boy was willing to speak on his behalf without the aid of a psychologist) I think 5 games is too harsh. Maybe we could set up a candle-lit vigil outside the discipline office. Or a sit in? Yes, sit ins always seem to work. I know Captain Shamrock organized both of these events in order to bring back Fastshow to TTP and he was...er...never mind.

[Aves]

Originally Posted by Yoda

Once in a co-ed game i got sucker punched by a girl,

I hope you took note of her number for future reference.

Coach, 5 games seems harsh - I didn't see the tackle though, but from what you said earlier you questioned it even being a red so you might be looking through some rose-coloured glasses. Ballbaby saw it and rebutted coach , anyone else (SU, Rangers,spectator) see it? Since coach brought it up, just how bad of a tackle was it?
I heard something about a scissor type tackle...were there any reasons given?
Not much can be done now I suspect, but you may succeed in raising the scrutiny on discipline consistency.
I always found it odd that dirty, reckless tackles (not saying this is one) have always seemed to get less than telling the ref where to go in a momentary loss of the heed.
but then again, I'm a little biased

[Red Dragon]

5 GAMES...not to bring up the past, but the guy who put me out with a tackle from behind "scizzor chop", broke a bone in my leg and tore up all the liagaments in my ankle only got three games! Makes you wonder...

[cainy]

I was at the game in question, however I didn't see the tackle, I arrived shortly after kickoff. Ian did play the rest of the match and didn't seem to have any lingering effects. From what the lads said, it was a bad tackle and a red was deserved, however five games if very harsh. My problem with the league/ disipline/ refs is that our games are refereed and lined by the same guys who run the league ie... Bobby Brown, JB, Niel Fuge, Kevin Upal, Peter Thomas, Denis Mortensen,Andy Pinter who runs the Knight league,and so on. These guys also are on the Disipline comitee. Further more they are the schedualers of all the games. So it is a complete waste of time to appeal, they are not going to tell the guy whom the have pints with on the tailgate or on the back of JBs motorcycle that they fckued up. We continue to see the same officials over and over because there is a clique ( jobs for the boys). I know a number of good quality refs with all there levels who can't break the inner circle and get a game Schedualer give games to the guys who have been loyal to them, so they return the favour. What i have tried to do over the last 5 years is to never end up in front of the discipline board, you never know what to expect.
I appreciate the jobs these guys do, and realize that knowone else is stepping up to the plate, however there is a conflict of interest here, I can't get involved at this point in my life, maybe after I'm through playing/coaching. I guess in closing my point is, they get paid to ref, paid in the form of an hounorariam to be on the executive, and they police themselves. At the very least they should be required to hand in truthful and elegible game reports.

[LFC2]

I like Cainy's reasoning for the most part. The little I can say from sitting in front of the board (sorry Marcus) and other teammates that go, you are literally at the mercy of what the referee writes up, or how he describes the offense. I am guessing that it was written up quite harshly, and unfortunately whoever this guy was/is can sit and defend himself till he is blue in the face, but it would make no difference. I tell all my guys, go in, say your peace, shut up and take your punishment, nothing else will help your case.
I agree that there is a conflict of interest. I agree we need to change it, but who is going to step up and get involved?

[Dial 9-1-1]

Originally Posted by LFC2

I agree we need to change it, but who is going to step up and get involved?

I recommend STD since he has been on the back of JB's bike on a number of occasions and was last heard of on the FVSL Div 1 thread looking for a beating!

I kid! I kid!

[bulljive]

I also never saw this tackle but I rather see a large suspension for a nasty tackle then all the large suspension for saying thats f***en bullsh*t in a moment of frustration. I recieved a two footed sliding studs up tackle from behind while I was shielding the ball no card was given, I turned to the ref and said how is that not a fu**en card and got the straight red. Yes abuse towards an official cannot be tolerated but they need to have a bit thicker skin for it is a game of emotion, and over the top suspension are common place. Once you head to the board its a kangaroo court they have made up there mind on suspension before you even go there so there is no point showing up. Best you can do is play fair keep your mouth shut and play the game and hope you never have to deal with any of it.

[blindman]

Warning: This post comes in chapters!
Discipline is a joke at most levels and in most leagues...this is not something that is unique to the Fraser Valley. Each referee sees things differently and has different tollerance levels so what is a sendoff in one game, might be a caution in another, might be a talking to in another. I know that frustrates the heck out of players but thats just the way it is and its never going to change unless you clone us as referees.
Those who are brave enough to sit on discipline boards have an impossible job of trying to figure out what occured when they can't actually see video of it and have to rely on a written report. Having gone to discipline as a coach with players I know the games we play to twist and cast doubt into the referee's report, whether it is correct or not, and that doesn't make the job of discipline committees any easier. Again, an area your not going to be able to fix.
The major problem with discipline is simply the insane fifty something page BC Soccer discipline policy that each affiliated league is supposed to follow. If you've ever read the policy cover to cover you'd literally be afraid to step onto a pitch because the policy sets mimimal penalties for all offenses that are set in stone and nothing is left to interpretation. It absolutly handcuffs discipline boards who want to use common sense and make decisions that are just and fair to both sides. It has no links to any of modern ideas towards discipline, would never be tollerated in the real working world, and if I tried to use it in my classroom I'd be out of kids by lunch most days....hmmmm.
One of the so called "modern ideas" about discipline is that in order for discipline to be effective it must discourage the undesired behaviour from occuring in the future, which in this case are yellow/red card offences. If the harsh discipline policy was working we should logically see a reduction in yellows/reds and calmer games where everyone abides by the rules. I'm too young to be able to make a historical comparision to how many cards there used to be but something tells me that cards are not going down and may even be climbing. My per game average is certainly not going down. If this is the case, the policy is not only harsh and unjust it isn't even working to achive the goals it was set out to achieve.
So while most people point the finger at the FVSL guys, the blame for the insanity of discipline over the last few years should be placed directly at BC Soccer's door. Unlike other leagues who just do whatever they want, the guys running the FVSL are first class people who won't ignore a policy that comes from a higher governing body even if they disagreed with it. And you can't blame them for having integrety. I guess as players/coaches you have two choices...elect a FVSL board that will ignore the policy and see if BC Soccer could ever do anything about it or encourage the people that currently run the FVSL to use their power, influence, and votes to go through the proper channels to get the policy changed.
Either way, if you avoid red, you have no worries!!