[vBookie] 2007 Saturday Night Football - New England vs New York Giants (Week 17)

[BJB]

Will the Pats go 16 and 0?????

Bets good till 5pm Saturday.....

[italian_stallion21]

Bellichek wants the record, and he'll get it. Let's hope Moss doesn't.

[BJB]

Pats go 16 & 0.... Brady gets Passing TD's record, Moss gets Receiving TD's record, Pats get most points scored in one season record.... a bunch of records....

Can they get the superbowl now??

Event Settled.

[italian_stallion21]

Stupid Moss. Too bad Rice only had 12 games.

[The Franchise]

Originally Posted by italian_stallion21

Stupid Moss. Too bad Rice only had 12 games.

I am glad Moss got it, he has been by far (except in Oakland) the best receiver to play the game....(I think he is better then Rice) but a receiver is only as good as his quarterback and Brady is currently the best qb in the game and when he retires the best quarterback to EVER play football!

They should split the MVP!

Did my Falcons win today?

[Bifficus]

Falcons and the Leafs? Probably like the Kings in basketball to.

[The Franchise]

Originally Posted by Bifficus

Falcons and the Leafs? Probably like the Kings in basketball to.

Nope Suns

Some of us don't bandwagon from team to team like most people on here

[italian_stallion21]

Originally Posted by The Franchise

I am glad Moss got it, he has been by far (except in Oakland) the best receiver to play the game....(I think he is better then Rice) but a receiver is only as good as his quarterback and Brady is currently the best qb in the game and when he retires the best quarterback to EVER play football!

They should split the MVP!

Did my Falcons win today?

Seriously? Are you retarded? Moss is great but not even close to Rice.

[The Franchise]

Originally Posted by italian_stallion21

Seriously? Are you retarded? Moss is great but not even close to Rice.

Really I would take Moss with Brady anytime over Rice and Montana!

If Moss played with Brady for his whole career he would have every record for a receiver!

I guess we just disagree!

[italian_stallion21]

Moss has had one good year, Rice had a good year every year. Every remember seeing Rice drop a pass? It didn't happen. Moss has a collection of good receivers that command respect if teams try to double team him, Rice didn't (most of the time). He was always making plays no matter how many and who were guarding him. I had this debate with many over the holidays and you're the first person to think Moss over Rice.

[johnnybluenose]

If you look at the eras and plunked Moss into Rice's era Moss would have dominated if he had Brady throwing him the ball in that Era.

Back then Defenses were able to do much more to impede receivers etc. Moss is bigger, fatser, jumpes better, and is stronger than Rice with the same(ish) hands IMHO.

Rice isn't close to as fast as Moss, and therefore would not be as good at getting open as Moss.

Moss' headspace is what has kept him down for so long in his career. he started off well at Minny, but let his ego get the best of him.

what made Rice so good was his route running and Bill Walsh's amazing pioneering of Westcoast offense when the NFL Defense was crushing most Offensive coordinators. Also he was healthy for almost his whole career without major injury.

also keep in mind that Rice had arguably the best QB's of his time in Young and Montana as well as other weapons like Roger Craig and such. I don't think that the Pats have any other truly hall of fame worthy weapons in their lineup on offense...Stallworth and welker are good, but not great, Brady is what makes them good, not the player themself.

In todays era Brady and Moss > Rice and Joe/Young
Yesteryear ear Brady Moss > Joe/Young & Rice

my $0.02

[The Franchise]

Originally Posted by italian_stallion21

Moss has had one good year, Rice had a good year every year. Every remember seeing Rice drop a pass? It didn't happen. Moss has a collection of good receivers that command respect if teams try to double team him, Rice didn't (most of the time). He was always making plays no matter how many and who were guarding him. I had this debate with many over the holidays and you're the first person to think Moss over Rice.

Rice never dropped a pass....that is an amazing career! He must have a record somewhere then.

FYI Moss doesn't get double teamed...he gets triple teamed and makes the catch 90% of time.

I don't think Moss over Rice by a little....I think Moss over Rice by a landslide!


Great points Jonny!

[johnnybluenose]

I never said landslide...Moss is not greater than Rice, ever...He is more talented, and in a Utopian environment or if you had some parallel universe you could plunk the guys down next to each other I think Moss would have or I should say could have been better...but his ego got in the way.

What I will say is definatively, th 2007-08 season is the most impressive display ever by a QB and WR combo, even as an overall Offense. Montana or Young never had seasons close to this with Rice, as far as I can remember...

But it is comparing apples and giraffes. Like comparing Gretzky to Crosby (different players with different skillsets in different eras) Like comparing James or Nash to Jordan in B-Ball, Or George Best to Ronaldinho, or Pele to Cristiano Ronaldo in soccer.

Who the better pitcher in Baseball Satchel Paige or Roger Clemens? Better Hitter: Josh Gibson or Barry Bonds?

Apples and Giraffes...

[italian_stallion21]

Originally Posted by johnnybluenose

If you look at the eras and plunked Moss into Rice's era Moss would have dominated if he had Brady throwing him the ball in that Era.

Back then Defenses were able to do much more to impede receivers etc. Moss is bigger, fatser, jumpes better, and is stronger than Rice with the same(ish) hands IMHO.

Rice isn't close to as fast as Moss, and therefore would not be as good at getting open as Moss.

Moss' headspace is what has kept him down for so long in his career. he started off well at Minny, but let his ego get the best of him.

what made Rice so good was his route running and Bill Walsh's amazing pioneering of Westcoast offense when the NFL Defense was crushing most Offensive coordinators. Also he was healthy for almost his whole career without major injury.

also keep in mind that Rice had arguably the best QB's of his time in Young and Montana as well as other weapons like Roger Craig and such. I don't think that the Pats have any other truly hall of fame worthy weapons in their lineup on offense...Stallworth and welker are good, but not great, Brady is what makes them good, not the player themself.

In todays era Brady and Moss > Rice and Joe/Young
Yesteryear ear Brady Moss > Joe/Young & Rice

my $0.02

I still think you're wrong Especially when it comes to hands. As for stats, they actually are close. Rice's numbers for first 10 seasons: 820 Rec, 13275 yards and 131 TD. Moss's: 774 Rec, 12193 yards and 124 TD. He did this in an era where you said the DB's could do much more to impede the WR's (which is true) and that makes the numbers even better. You can't put Moss in another era because players these days are all bigger, faster stronger. That's like saying Shaq is better than Wilt because he would dominate in Wilt's era. You look at what Rice did in terms of accolades, awards, and records and he's light years ahead of Moss.

[italian_stallion21]

Originally Posted by johnnybluenose

I never said landslide...Moss is not greater than Rice, ever...He is more talented, and in a Utopian environment or if you had some parallel universe you could plunk the guys down next to each other I think Moss would have or I should say could have been better...but his ego got in the way.

What I will say is definatively, th 2007-08 season is the most impressive display ever by a QB and WR combo, even as an overall Offense. Montana or Young never had seasons close to this with Rice, as far as I can remember...

But it is comparing apples and giraffes. Like comparing Gretzky to Crosby (different players with different skillsets in different eras) Like comparing James or Nash to Jordan in B-Ball, Or George Best to Ronaldinho, or Pele to Cristiano Ronaldo in soccer.

Who the better pitcher in Baseball Satchel Paige or Roger Clemens? Better Hitter: Josh Gibson or Barry Bonds?

Apples and Giraffes...

I do agree with the most impressive display by a QB/WR combo, what they did this year was amazing.

[johnnybluenose]

Originally Posted by italian_stallion21

I still think you're wrong Especially when it comes to hands. As for stats, they actually are close. Rice's numbers for first 10 seasons: 820 Rec, 13275 yards and 131 TD. Moss's: 774 Rec, 12193 yards and 124 TD. He did this in an era where you said the DB's could do much more to impede the WR's (which is true) and that makes the numbers even better. You can't put Moss in another era because players these days are all bigger, faster stronger. That's like saying Shaq is better than Wilt because he would dominate in Wilt's era. You look at what Rice did in terms of accolades, awards, and records and he's light years ahead of Moss.

yeah that is all fine and well, except that Moss did not have Montana or Young chucking him the ball for his first ten years Although he has only played 9 complete since he was drafted in 1998 (but who's counting )...This is his tenth...

Here's who he had chucking him the ball..
1998-2000: Cunningham (Past it at this point) and Jeff George (yup)
2002-2004: Caulpepper (Good, no Montana or Young though)
7 seasons with Vikes
2005-2006: Kerry Collins & Andrew Walter (Who?)
2 seasons with Raiders
2007: Tom Brady

Rice had 1985-1991 Montana
Rice had 1991-1995 Young

Funny that Moss and Rice were together ofr a bit in Oakland...

[italian_stallion21]

Originally Posted by johnnybluenose

yeah that is all fine and well, except that Moss did not have Montana or Young chucking him the ball for his first ten years Although he has only played 9 complete since he was drafted in 1998 (but who's counting )...This is his tenth...

Here's who he had chucking him the ball..
1998-2000: Cunningham (Past it at this point) and Jeff George (yup)
2002-2004: Caulpepper (Good, no Montana or Young though)
7 seasons with Vikes
2005-2006: Kerry Collins & Andrew Walter (Who?)
2 seasons with Raiders
2007: Tom Brady

Rice had 1985-1991 Montana
Rice had 1991-1995 Young

Funny that Moss and Rice were together ofr a bit in Oakland...

I see that point, but good receivers can be good with anyone as long as the pass is in their area. It's bad receivers that need the great QB's. Devin Hester would be a great WR if Chicago had any sort of QB. Unfortunately you will never get a conensus on who is better, but Moss has a lot of work to do in the next 6 years to catch Rice. And I could say 5 as Rice was injured for a season.

[johnnybluenose]

nope and nope.

Hester has no testicles and refuses to go up the middle or over the middle, that is why he is a poor receiver, as well s he can't jump.

[italian_stallion21]

Originally Posted by johnnybluenose

nope and nope.

Hester has no testicles and refuses to go up the middle or over the middle, that is why he is a poor receiver, as well s he can't jump.

Last game - 2 catches, 65 yards and a TD. I agree with what you say, but all you have to do is get him the ball and he makes things happen. Just by being on the field teams HAVE to watch for him, even though he's a 4th reciever just by what can happen should he get the ball. If Chicago ever gets a QB, watch out for him.