86'ers Future (Vancouver Sports Scene)

Forum,

There seems to be a bleak outlook for sports in Vancouver these days. Our baseball team, the Canadians, have played their last season in Vancouver and are moving out (single A team moving in). The Grizzlies were sold and it's only a matter of time before they are moved to St. Louis (minimum 2 years according to NBA rules). The sale of the Grizzlies can only be the start of a fire sale at Orca Bay and Canuck fans can now consider themselves a small market team even before they are sold (if they aren't considered a small market team already). When MaCaw does sell them, if it's to someone local, it will be to someone with smaller pockets then he has and the Canucks will eventually follow the Grizzlies out of town (to Portland. What will be the outlook for the 86'ers?

Will the 86'ers benefit from the loss of these franchises? Will people now spend part of their Grizzlies season ticket money on 86'er tickets? If so, and the 86'ers follow the same path the Rochester Rhino's have as far as team success and fan support goes, will they become more appealing to the Major League Soccer expansion committee?

In my opinion the loss of these franchises is a catch twenty-two. I think the 86'ers will see an increase in public interest, media coverage and ticket sales. But even if attendance goes up 400 to 500% at 86'ers home games they won't have any chance of expansion into the Major Soccer League (MLS) even if the MLS has a miraculous change of heart towards expansion to Canadian cities. The main reason will be this failure to support big time or small time sports franchises in Vancouver. This fact alone, plus the fact that they are not a major market as far as TV ratings go will kill off any chance of expansion of ANY big-time sports leagues to this city for years to come. No Major League Baseball and, certainly, no NFL. The loss of our sports franchises, unfortunately, signifies the end of any hope, however slim, that the 86'ers had of getting any consideration from the MLS.

Like the NHL, the MLS are only interested in expanding into major TV markets in the states and like the NHL will not wait for someone from that city to come to them. They go and find buyers in those cities. This seems to be the recipe for all major sports leagues these days (the main reason why the NFL keep trying to put a NFL franchise in LA when no one in LA, apparently, seems to likes football). Raleigh-Durham is not a hockey or soccer hotbed by any stretch of the imagination but stands a better chance of getting a MLS franchise than either Rochester or Seattle because of potential TV viewers. Even though the Rhinos are the best team in the US (U.S. Open Cup Champs) the MLS will and has stalled on giving them a MLS franchise.

In my opinion Vancouver doesn't stand a chance. Life in the A-League is as good as it's going to get for Vancouver. We're going to just accept that fact. Am I wrong in this opinion?

Cheers,
Jonesy

For anyone interested, Gil Stein's (former NHL commissioner before Bettman) book on the NHL explains expansion of major sports leagues quite well. Good book even if you're not a die-hard hockey fan. A great insight into the lives of NHL GM's.



[This message has been edited by Jonsey (edited October 21, 1999).]

I reckon the only way forward for the 86ers is to continue their work in the community and to try and get rid of the stigma that surrounds going to an 86ers match. I know I've always felt funny going and paying to watch guys I grew up playing with and, to be honest, it irks me to give any money to anything to do with Lenabobaduzzi. I may be on my own here but I couldn't care less that the Canadians have pissed off, that the Jizzlies are about to, and that the Canucks will, in all likelihood, be off to Portland sooner rather than later. There's no atmosphere at any of the games, any momentum is put on hold for television revenue and advertising, and you find yourself surrounded by old corporate wankers treating their giggling bimbo girlfriends to a night on the tiles. Me, bitter? I'd much rather go to a "real" sporting event like the Epsom Cup of rugby. Last summer, although the Canadian side lost every game, the atmosphere at T-bird Stadium was electric, and the commitment of the players was refreshing. I know that from a financial perspective the 86ers want to get into the MLS but for once I'd love to see someone in Canada give two fingers to the yanks and start up a league that concentrated on Vancouver-Victoria rivalries, Edmonton-Calgary, Kelowna-Kamloops etc. etc. I know I'm dreaming and that the CSL proved such a thing wouldn't work but Canada is now ranked ridiculously low in the world rankings and something has to be done. How is it that Australia has come so far in the last 10 years? Bloody New Zealand, with a population of 3 million would probably beat Canada. Whatever happened to Ajax sniffing around the 86ers? Did that fall through? Cheers, Ian.

Colinfastshow;

How about moving to the Prairies where there is no big time hockey, basketball, soccer, or baseball teams, maybe then you could see those Mooose Jaw/Saskatoon and Brandon/Winnipeg rivalries.

Come on buddy,it is that exact small town attitude which will jeopordized pro sports in Vancouver. I do not include the A-League as "Big time" sports. At least when one went to a Canadians game, you could not only have babes and beer (nooner's), but you could also see future MLB players.

As for basketball, unlike you, I would be devastated if the Grizz left. I still get all jizzed to see Hill, Shaq, Payton, Weber, Iverson and the rest. The main reason behind the demise of these two franchises is the Canadian dollar comparison to that of the US. Revenues in Cdn and Expenses in US, that alone can be catastrophic.

As for hockey sure the organization is in shambles, but the enthusiasm is still there, I am certain that in '94 even you watched the playoff run, or you might even have gone to a game or two. One would think that the debacle of the Canucks would keep the fans away but, that has been proven wrong.


The problem with the local teams is the management that runs them, not the fans. It disturbs me more that we as fans will not be able to watch Odom, Maggette, or Francis become Rookie of the Year contenders in Grizz uniforms, all because Stu had a brain cramp during the player interviews. Why Choose Francis, if he doesn't want to be here!!!!

I love the big city and I love Big Time sports, my point is simply good or bad I'd rather have Major League athletes coming to Vancouver rather than having to drive down to Portland or Seattle to watch them,it's enought that that the Huskies and Mariners are there.

Lastly, I am no big Homer, I just like the big event, surely the TV market has something to do with it but, Vancouver will not be seeing any MLS, MLB or NFL untill each sport has an appropriate facility to play in. And lastly, Colinfastshow, every sport in every city including the Yankees, Cowboys, Habs, and Lakers all need corporate support, so what if they bring the bimbos just scoop them in between periods. I just resent the fact that you, as a so called sportsman could have such a careless attitude about sports leaving our great city!!!

Sandman

The fact of the matter is that pro sports is ruled by (drumroll) money and Vancouver doesn't have the native wherewithall to pull it off. Griffiths showed us that and now we're paying the price of foreign ownership with no "heart".

Sports money these days doesn't have dick to do with geographical borders (although Canadian taxes-not the dollar-hurts when you're trying to attract big money players), it's all about putting together a good package (multi sports/seasons) and then having media rights to display the finished goods to as wide an audience as you can.

There was a good interview with Neil Smith of the Rangers about how unfair it was that he was boosting the leagues salary averages and that all the small market franchises were being hurt by it.

His comment was that if that's what you want to call it (unfair) then call it that. He has to answer to the powers that run MSGN and they want a saleable product for their network and his mandate is to deliver that. His dilemna is that money alone won't deliver the goods and if he can't find the solution when money is no object he will be gone.

McCaw is the closest thing Vancouver has to being a media giant and he's way down the food chain when it comes to the Disneys, Turners and Murdochs out there who are driving the pro sports leagues these days.

Will Vancouver be able to hold on to their teams for the long haul? I don't think so unless there is a break up of Canada (go Quebec go!) and we (BC) can become more autonomous. Then we'd have to hire a CEO-Steve Jobs comes to mind-to run the show though because none of the dufus' we've been electing would be able to pull it off.

Getting back down to Earth...the '86ers don't stand a chance of getting into the MLS unless the Americans decide they want to improve soccer in North America as opposed to just the US (laugh riotously here).

Peter

Sandman,
A few clarifications as, as usual, I used a lot of words and failed to really get my point across. As far as the Canucks go I'd be gutted if they went because I think hockey's a great sport though I must say they've lost a bit of appeal for me after their recent goings on and the whole Renney/Keenan/Quinn/Linden/Bure carry-on. I stick to what I said, however, about GM Place and the "fans". Give me the Colliseum anyday, at least it felt like a rink and not a Cineplex. In fact if Vancouver got a Junior "A" team to play in the Colisseum I'd be more inclined to go to that ahead of the Canucks. As far as the other games go I've never liked basketball, even when I played it at school so, as far as the Grizz goes, I'm afraid I'm utterly indifferent one way or the other. It does wind me up that we, in Canada, depend so much on yanks to do us the supreme favour of coming up here to be paid loads of wonga to play a game in one of the world's most beautiful cities when, with very few exceptions, they'd rather be anywhere else and view Vancouver as some sort of punishment. That's why (simplistically) I don't like basketball, baseball, and American football, I can't relate to any of the athletes. As I said, I've always preferred sports like football, rugby union and league, tennis, and (gasp) cricket. I'd rather watch two Canadians play table tennis than pay to watch a bunch of circus sideshows slowly bounce a ball up and down a court. Pretty much tells you about my upbringing doesn't it? Cheers, Ian.

Colin, Sandman, Peter, others

Do you think that the 86'ers are going to benefit from these teams leaving? Will they attract more fans to Swangard? Will this increase in soccer fans lead to a stronger soccer community and allow the communities of Okanagan, Surrey, Coquitlam and Victoria the opportunities to develope semi-pro teams in a Canadian League or the A-League?

If the "pro" teams leaving means a better soccer community than I say Piss Off! I can't understand how Vancouver can be so disinterseted in the local soccer scene. When we went to Chilliwack for nationals, a rep from our club had to contact all the local newspapers to see if they would be willing to cover it. It was like pulling teeth to get these people involved. Soccer in Vancouver is one of the few sports where the players are there because they love the game and aren't focused on the paycheck. I love hockey but the players make me sick! Same for basketball. Sandman talks about having a junior hockey which would be great but the lure isn't the level it's the committment and effort that fans thrive on. This obviously isn't enough for the press to pay attention to or the modern fan who needs gossip and scores of 122-100 to grab their attention. Why is soccer so popular overseas and not in NA? The intelligent fan?

ramblingmanout

Jonesy, I'd love to think so but...... What I'd like to know is how the entire city of Vancouver could have been so turned onto the Whitecaps who were, arguably, bigger than the Canucks at one stage and now the 86ers think they're doing well (and they are) when they get a gate of 5,000. If we looked at this statistically I don't think we'd see a drop in people playing football at all levels, if anything more are playing today than in the 70's if only as a result of immigration. I think the media has an awful lot to answer to in this country. Why is it when so many play the game in this country can we not find one half-decent scribe to write with a bit of intelligence and knowledge? When you watch the "World Sports" news on Headline Sports they find it necessary to get a guy with an English accent to read the results and even he gets player and team names wrong more often than not. I could do that job for ****'s sake. Then we've got little Derry Gobson on Sportsnet who needs a bloody "stunt double" to do his ball keep-ups for the Sportsnet advert for football. He makes Vic Rauter look good. And that says it all right there. As far as the coverage of the 86ers it's more or less just a synopsis of the match. "Thompson had a great game, scoring once in the 33rd and again in the 89th. The 86ers defence played solidly and coach Valentine said he was pleased with the 3 (or however many points they award for a win this week) points". That type of thing which, if you were at the game you knew, and if you weren't, it doesn't SAY anything. And then the Province (Go Big) tucks it away near the back of the sports section nestled between "angling tips" and who's racing in the 3:00 at Hastings Park. Not being old enough to remember newspapers in the 70's could anyone tell me how the Whitecaps were covered in the media? One big reason games like basketball and American football are so popular in Vancouver is because of the overwhelming media coverage. The leagues sell themselves so well and, if you're the sports editor at the Province or Sun or producer at Sportspage, it's far easier (and probably cheaper) to get an AP story on some game in America than it is to send someone out to cover an 86ers match. Printing a story off the wire requires absolutely no thought. Heaven forbid one of their "Sports writers" have to go and show himself up because he wouldn't know up from down on a football pitch. In the 70's the Whitecaps were considered "cool". Now all the hype surrounds American games and people eat it up even though most have nothing whatsoever in common with the players or have never played the game itself. It's incredibly frustrating as most of the people writing on this board could cover B.C. and Canadian football beter than it's being covered right now. If it's considered cool again, people will go to games, simple as that. Question is, how do the 86ers make it fashionable again?

[This message has been edited by Colinfastshow (edited October 22, 1999).]

[This message has been edited by Colinfastshow (edited October 22, 1999).]

Excellent thoughts guys,

Just to add to Eli's point, in one of the papers the other day (I think it was The Province), the VMSL Premier standings were listed. The only problem was that they were under the heading "Pacific Coast League"!!!

Now, is the fault of the mindless wonders-to-be in the sports editing department or the mindless wonders-to-be in our beloved VMSL office?



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~Regs

"Why must I be surrounded by frickin' idiots?"
- Dr. Evil
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Purely from a statistical standpoint, I think you would see a rise in the attendance for soccer games if Vancouver's pro sports teams were directly competing with the 86'ers and were to leave. But I don't think that's the case: the 2 sports that we're really talking about here are hockey and basketball and neither one of them compete for the entertainment dollar with the 86'ers.

I'm no expert on marketing but what I see is a lack of advertising dollars and innovativeness on the part of the 86'ers. They need to bring some excitement into the marketing: maybe playing on a theme of visiting keepers not wanting to tend the net at the beer gardens-end (you could do some hilarious stuff a la the hockey goalies doing other jobs campaign-I don't remember who did it though...). They could do a cross-media campaign (print, tv and radio) and air them strategically to attract new customers.

Currently they seem to be trying to woo the existing soccer fan base (youths and, with them, their parents) with clinics, team incentive packages and the like. Not that there's anything wrong with that and I think they should comtinue with those kinds of things but they should be trying to entice people who haven't been to a game before to take one in and then hope like hell that they can offer some entertainment (soccer and other hoopla) that will bring them back for more.

Unfortunately this all takes money and I doubt there's a lot of that to throw around. It's the old adage; you've got to spend a little to make a little.

But even with a limited budget they could be far more creative with their marketing ideas than they have been to date; a soccer player or a ball with the game dates/times in the sports section-big deal, where's the excitment?

Anyways, that's my $1/50.

Peter

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use me i'm open! now come inside me!

-heard more than once on various pitches around town...

There is blood running down my chin as I bite my toungue thinking on the local media and our game.

I've worked in Newsrooms in town Radio/TV and covered the sixers in 97 for a local 24 hour newsradio. The amount of ignorance towards soccer shown from the sports departments is absolutely shocking...it's SHOCKING!!!

The "cool" thing to say about soccer in front of the Sports Director is "it's boring", "there isn't enough scoring" and worst of all "soccer players are wimps"., the last comment usually coming from overweight writers stuffing potato chips in their mouths between their worship of overpayed American clowns who can dunk a basketball. I would always argue in favour of soccer which proved to be a bit of a bad career move ;-) Actually it's not that funny. There is a writer at Sportspage who is a former SFU soccer player and he also suited up in the VMSL Premier league for several years. I still talk to him occassionally and he tells me soccer is a non starter in the Sports department.

The problem? Reporters all want to be "BIG TIME" and the 86'ers are not considered that. They would way rather report on the Grizzlies second round pick outta Chico State than the developement of the national soccer team under a new coach. The priorities are way out of wack!

Goodbye Grizzlies. Good riddance to bad rubbish.

I still love the canucks though...lol.

I'd better stop there, I may need a transfusion.

Toze

Lads;

I would first off like to state that I love soccer and am a big fan of the "Game". That said the problem isn't solely the fault of the media, it is the general feeling towards soccer in N.America and the level at which the game is played at!!!

Take for example when our national team play a televised game compared to a Canucks or Griz game. I wonder what the difference would be in ratings? With no numbers to back this up except for the facts that people with lots more money than me decide to put there advertising dollars in a Canucks game rather that a high profile (LOA) soccer game it would seem clear what sports fan enjoy to watch. The same reasons must apply for what Sports Page, Sports Desk ect. cover and report on. Christ I think more people watch curling in this country then a soccer game!!!

The problem that we seem to forget is that the 86ers are players that are mostly playing this weekend in the mighty VMSL. They aren't playing in Europe or high profile American cities for that matter so how do you market your team with the likes of Nico Berg (now playing for Peg) or Jason Jordan (playing for Indo) and so on. This doesn't impress the average sports fan. Until the team makes it big time then a major city, like Vancouver is, isn't going to be interested beyond the local "soccer" fans!!!!!!

It is like comparing the Kamloops Balzers and the Vancouver Canucks. When Kamloops play Spokane can anyone name a player for each team? I doubt it!!! So when the 86ers play Seattle why should joe blow sports fan know any of the players. The problem with the 86ers is that they don't stack up against any real pro soccer teams in the world. But take the Canucks and they at least play in the top league in the world. When the Whitecaps were around there league was somewhat comparable to the top European leagues at the time. When they won the title it meant something, but winning the A league title is barely a step above the VMSL title!!!!!!

Unless this team is going to try and be something more than the Lions are to the CFL it won't grow any more than what it is today. I don't think the Griz leaving will make any difference to the 86ers. If they could get into the MSL it would be a start, but just that a start. There is a lot of work to be done and it starts with the programs themselves. Until the team does something you won't attract more sports fans to soccer in B.C. than what read the offtheball site!!!!!!

John

I thoroughly enjoyed seeing old Niall on the "Blast" clip and feel relieved that he has lost none of his excellent gurning and Rich Little-esque impressionist abilities. Airdrie must be congratulating themselves on a shrewd bit of football business in acquiring his prodigious slapstick capabilities and flair. With a few goals thrown in no doubt to worry football hoardings the length and breadth of Scotland. What did the type say after he delivered his classic "ox" line? I found it difficult to read on my clapped out computer. I look forward to the next installment. Cheers, Ian.

[This message has been edited by Colinfastshow (edited November 15, 1999).]

The text at the start says (from memory..) "Will Niall and his teammates have the last laugh?"

The bit at the end says (again from hazy memory) "To find out check out the final cut of Blast: A Season With the Sixers"

This was streamed from a VHS copy (from the DV master) of a ten minute 'trailer' I submitted to the Canada Council. Apparently they didn't think much of Niall and co. - or at least my attempt to represent them and I just got an ever so polite thumbs down on funding from them. To be expected a bit- the odds are rough given the number of submissions. Besides I didn't have any interviews with step-nieces of obscure 19th century Canadian folk artists (they love that stuff, the Canada Council do..).

Regs will be putting more clips on line. When they're all up they'll be in the sequence they are on the trailer and will be a bit more cogent I hope (listen carefully, you can hear Peg lads running for their dictionaries...again)

Gregor, why don't you try getting a grant through the Comedy Network? Those scenes of the Swangard crowd offering Bernie James retirement advice were as funny as anything I've scene on that channel.