Sixer RANTS and RAVES

Regs · 01-22-2002, 10:40 AM

By Chocolate Abdul-Regsheem (Admin) (209.53.4.104 - 209.53.4.104) on Saturday, March 13, 1999 - 12:12 pm:

Let's hear 'em.

By toze (209.17.167.71 - 209.17.167.71) on Saturday, March 13, 1999 - 03:01 pm:

Roy,

Has the North Shore Soccer Training Centre entered your spring league?

I know its been talked about by Tom McManus. I hope so, I coach the U10 boys team.
Actually I find this quite intriguing and would love to see the 86'ers YDP show up.
I know Alan mentioned he thought it was a good idea, but I sensed sarcasam (again) in his post. Of course if their teams were to start to lose...well you know what I mean.

I'd like to find out more on this league if you can (check e.mail)

Regs

You can take your boot out of my ass and put it back in your mouth where you've been keeping it lately.

Actually I need to thank you, no one had taken a shot at me in the forum and I was begining to wonder what's up. Gloves are off.

I concede your point that many forum contributors are uniquely qualified to comment on the local game. No aspect of local soccer should be exempt from criticism or praise, at least here.
But 86er bashing...c'mon give your heads a shake. Like it or not, they are the flagship for soccer in this province.
Yeah, we all know that many of their players suit up in the Premier League and we all have our stories on how we 'took the piss' out of this sixer in a game or 'schooled' this guy in another. But at the end of the day, the sixers get about five thousand people out to Swangard. Peg vs Metro Ford tommorrow may attract fifty, even though the calibre may not be that much different.

mybe the VMSL could enter an all star team in the PDSL along with the Abbotsford 86ers. Just a crazy thought out of the blue.

Everyone has an axe to grind, it seems some forum regulars are bitter about being passed over or cut from the sixers or other pro teams. Also the 86'ers directly compete with other YDP programs, including the NSSTC which I'm a coach in.

I know this sounds wishy washy or a bad episode of Jerry Springer...but the soccer commmunity need to stop putting up fences between each other. No wonder we can't get anything ****ing done. (though I'm sensing a slight swing in our favour)

This may sound like I'm trying to squeeze up Bobby's ass beside Alan like pigs to a trough, sorry for that.

noththing is perfecct.

Toze
(Colin Thomas)

By Chocolate Mammoud-AkShepallah (Imafatbastard) (209.52.121.61 - 209.52.121.61) on Saturday, March 13, 1999 - 03:20 pm:

Political Al,

I take back every bad comment I ever made about the sixers, they are a class organisation who deserve...no, I correct myself...have earned the respect of the entire soccer community. I wish you all the luck in the world with your reporting (that part was sincere!).

Furthermore, the sixers conduct themselves in an almost saintly manner and I can't think of one single individual who has been treated poorly. The product is top notch and I am sure that the signing of numerous NEW players will only enhance their ability to win an A-league trophy.

By Hanson (Mh) (207.194.18.77 - 207.194.18.77) on Saturday, March 13, 1999 - 03:28 pm:

Hi all,

I just have a question regarding Sebrango from Cuba. If the guy is so rated, why the hell is he settling for an abover-average A-League team? I seem to remember the overseas/86ers fiasco called Mickey Ross a couple seasons back - the one where any foreign player must be better than a local one and we'd better put him in the lineup right quick.

What is the deal with Sebrango??

-Mmmbop

By Chocolate Abdul-Regsheem (Admin) (209.53.4.104 - 209.53.4.104) on Saturday, March 13, 1999 - 03:44 pm:

ToZe,

jdgkl;AJGE"W jfeo/f kfoepMF fkdl;f fkdl;MF
fkdl; fkmld;Fm; !!!

hfdkjs.fhd hfdjk nfewfoew jflF nldk nfkdl.sNf nfldNFl fnkdlnfpe jfe fjopJf fm/ jfdmf/d fddJfdml jgl;gd FUhhghozjgklNG JOKE !

jkflf fjl/zf jfl/fjl jfpJF/ fjd/f oej;zg jfd/fj/ fjdjfkld mnklxngl gjmfl;zg jg;lfdjg ...

;-)

~ReGs

By Chocolate Mammoud-AkShepallah (Imafatbastard) (209.52.121.80 - 209.52.121.80) on Saturday, March 13, 1999 - 04:04 pm:

Ah, Regs I see that your foot is still in your mouth.

By Chocolate Abdul-Regsheem (Admin) (209.53.4.104 - 209.53.4.104) on Saturday, March 13, 1999 - 04:31 pm:

Toze,

Could you give me reasons WHY the sixers are the flagship for soccer in the province ? I'm not necessarily disagreeing with your statement, but am curious why I need to give my head a shake...

No one has taken a shot at you in here because frankly, you haven't said anything up to this point even mildly interesting... now that you've managed to stick your own head Bobby's ass, pull it put for a few days so you can hear the abuse about to rain.

Could you please share with us one of YOUR stories where YOU took the piss or schooled an 86er ? Thanks.

Make up your frickin' mind Toze !!! Your previous posts alluded to VMSL teams not having a chance in the A-league and then here you say the calibre is not much different.

I sincerely hope you're not refering to myself when you speak of bitterness, because nothing could be further from the truth. FWIW, some of us have made difficult decisions in our lives and one of mine was to concentrate on my education. I had opportunities in soccer but decided that the monetary benefits (as slim as they were) could not outweigh the significant hit that my educational development would take. My choice and I'm happy with it.

I will now replace my size ten...

~Regs.

By Toze (209.17.167.71 - 209.17.167.71) on Saturday, March 13, 1999 - 06:17 pm:

Regs,

I'm not going to write an essay on why the 86'ers are the flagship in BC...It's self evident. Anyone who who is hell bent on trashing the organization either has an axe to grind or personal reasons for doing so. If not the 86'ers then who...?

Abuse? Bring it on. I have a thick skin. Bobby's ass? I really have no need to.

As for schooling an 86'er...well I had a great match during lunch hour in 1978 against Doddy and Jinky at Ross Road Elementary school. C'mon you know what I mean, players who never made it and are insecure about the whole thing...maybe with Peg it's different but go down the table a bit and I hear non stop talk about how this 86'er or this guy is crap and the inevitable story. Its jealousy and thats in my opinion is why people love to jump on the sixers so much. My opinion.

The 86'ers vs VMSL...well I still ask which Premier club could compete in the A'League? (is that asinine?) But it's apples and oranges...could my summer league team compete in Premier? I don't see why not, but that would seem ridiculous to you. Premier is obviously a notch below the A'League as is Div.1 from Premier.

BTW

Pegasus S.C. belong to a sports organization headquartered and registered in Surrey B.C.. The team however plays its home matches in the City of North Vancouver which has a critical shortage of fields and turns away players every year due to lack of parks. Pegasus, in its application for the Kinsmen Stadium permit, lied about the residency of a number of its players and added players to the list who do not even play on the team. The North van parks board requires at least fifty percent of a teams players be residents of either the City or District of North Van.
Division two Pegasus/Olympics also used deceit to out jockey a division one Kinsmen applicant, as the Parks Board policy states "Kinsmen is to be reserved for the highest calibre applicant".

Pretty Interesting huh

(I won't take it any further than this forum...but it is a public forum) Yes I have proof

Toze

By Alan Douglas (206.12.82.112 - 206.12.82.112) on Saturday, March 13, 1999 - 06:18 pm:

Regs

Very sensible making this a new thread. Saves me one click. As for Bob and/or Carl coming here... it's a nice idea, but I don't think the time is right. Thickness of skin isn't really the issue, it's just a question of understanding and being comfortable with this internet medium, and they aren't. Someday though.

Now, I will eventually be putting up a Q&A section on the 86ers webpage. Not the same thing I know, but it's a start.

As for Doddy... he wasn't cut last year. He was on the roster all the way to the end of the playoffs. And now that I check my records I see that no players were cut to make room for Sebrango. At the roster deadline four players were signed and four were released. Signed were Tom Hardy, Charles Gbeke, Paulo Waldez, and Drew Smiley. Released were Nick Seddon, Spencer Coppin, Rob Csabai, and Joe Scigliano.

Alan/

By Alan Douglas (206.12.82.25 - 206.12.82.25) on Saturday, March 13, 1999 - 06:44 pm:

Imafatbastard,
Lovely sarcasm. When you find a valid criticsm I can respond to, please let me know.

Hanson,
Mickey Ross was a fiasco. Fans were pressuring the team to bring in some foreign talent so they made some calls. Alan Ball highly recommended Ross and the marginally useable Ian Payne. On Ball's word that these guys could play, the 86ers signed and flew them out here sight unseen. Huge mistake. They will *never* do that again.

Sebrango is different. Bob has twice seen him play in WC qualifying, and he was the best player on the Cuban team (if not the field). He's coming here because he now lives in Ottawa where he has a Canadian wife. He doesn't want to play in the States, so that leaves Vancouver or Toronto. We got him first.

Toze,
There was absolutely no sarcasm there. I honestly think it would be great to have the 86ers youth teams in Roy's Spring lead.

And thanks for the backup earlier on. I'm actually having tons of fun here. It's also very educational learning how the minds of some of these anti-86ers types actually work. Which brings me to...

Burnsie,
Jeez man, didn’t you notice the smilie and "Seriously though" right after that little crack. It was just a joke. Christ, with such a big stick up your ass it's no wonder the 86ers cut you. :-)

And in case you haven’t noticed, this isn’t Europe. As a former 86er you should know the club doesn't have the kind of revenue that European teams have. Unfortunately, they just can’t cover the cost of a year-round professional youth system by themselves. For now it has to be pay-per-use or no system at all. There’s no middle ground because Ajax is only interested in working with a proper professional system.

Maybe instead of Europe, we should talk about Mexico -- that’s where the next closest pro soccer teams are that are seriously involved in youth development. In Mexico you will find that yes, they *do* charge kids to be in their youth systems (actually most clubs use a two-level system where the younger kids pay, and the older ones, 15 years and up IIRC, don’t). I got that info from a Mexican who had been in such a system.

Alan/

By SYSA/SFC (Roy) (209.52.188.14 - 209.52.188.14) on Saturday, March 13, 1999 - 06:49 pm:

Toze
My e-mail is Stephen_Mitchell@bc.sympatico.ca
As to the NS teams, I beleive Jim (VP) has a committment. I hope so, with Metro Ford and Croatia it will be fun. The Ajax School will not especially after Bart's class act in a U12 Conference Cup game.

As to Pegasus FC yes the funding is from Surrey but at no time have we even offerred to move them to Surrey. Should the Firemen move to Delta? Frank Martinella lives in Burnaby, why the push now?
Peg is a NS team now and for the forseeable future
I make the trip there to watch as do others.
Please note Peg has NS residents on the U21 squad as well, are they in your calculations?
I would spend my time questioning the $600,000.00 to be spent on stands for a field that closed from November to March?

RM

By Toze (209.17.167.71 - 209.17.167.71) on Saturday, March 13, 1999 - 07:26 pm:

Roy,

the party line on the stands at Kinsmen is that legally the insurance money from the old structure has to be spent on new stands. Does this jive with general insurance claims? I have no idea.

Some locals (Football people if you can believe it) have been pestering local councils to use the money to install an artificial turf field. They decided on the stand.

Did you know that NVan City rejected a proposal to turn Mahon park (where Peg train) into a stadium structure modelled after Coquitlams Town Centre...with grass of course. I mean they actually had the funding. I was at the meeting covering it for a radio station and you know what? Not a single ****ing person from the soccer community bothered to attend. The local track club had people, Rugby had people but mostly angry local residents filled council chambers who were opposed to the structure.
They got what they wanted (squeeky wheel gets the grease) the stadium was rejected and the issue was buried. Now they're building a $1.5 million dollar waterfountain outside city hall...got to spend it on something.

Toze

By Alan Douglas (206.12.82.102 - 206.12.82.102) on Saturday, March 13, 1999 - 07:37 pm:

Roy,
I think we're starting to get somewhere.

Let's talk about all the hundreds of youth teams in the US that are now hiring professional coaches and charging kids hundreds of dollars a month to be on the team (I've heard amounts as high as $500 US). I'm sure you don't approve of that sort of thing, but the key question is: would you now call those teams "soccer schools" instead of clubs.

I think I've even heard that clubs in Ontario are staring to do this as well. So what if Metro-Ford, say, were to do it too. Say they hire a professional coach for M-F Juventus and charge the kids on the team $300 per month. Would that make them a soccer school? Should the districts kick them out of the league? Would they be kept out of your Spring League if they applied?

You see I think this "it costs money so its a soccer school" idea is a red herring. There are countless youth clubs across North America offering far less and charging much more than what the 86ers are doing, yet they don't get branded as a soccer school and blacklisted. I think there's a double standard here.

I'll be very interested to hear your views on this.

As for the SFC program, if I skip dinner, I can get to NAP by around 7pm next Friday, coming straight from the 86ers training camp at Burnaby Lake. Does that time work out?

Cheers,
Alan/

By Chocolate Abdul-Regsheem (Admin) (209.52.121.75 - 209.52.121.75) on Saturday, March 13, 1999 - 07:43 pm:

Toze,

What the **** was the point of that? We're having a discussion about the sixers and you post that dribble? Really professional on your part!

Talk about building fences...

When I said you had nothing interesting to say was all in jest. Alan mentioned that Carl and Bobby don't quite yet understand the internet medium but maybe in due time will... I'm leaning towards putting you in this same category.

Congratulations on your new friends btw... Tony, Ed, and Neil.

~Regs.

By toze (209.17.167.71 - 209.17.167.71) on Saturday, March 13, 1999 - 07:55 pm:

Regs,

who are Tony, Ed and Neil..?

Toze

By Gregor Young (Gregor) (209.52.76.105 - 209.52.76.105) on Saturday, March 13, 1999 - 08:22 pm:

WARNING: This post is quite long and has no pictures so Peg lads may want to give their lips a thorough stretch before attempting it in one go.

Good to see so many valid points being raised by both sides (well, Alan on one side and most everyone else on the other) regarding the 86ers. Regardless of their validity though, and whether I personally agree, it's also good to see such commitment on behalf of teams and organizations. That is the sort of energy that's required to move teams and clubs and their agendas forward and keep their players motivated and improving.

I don't know Roy and I know little of SFC beyond what he's brought to these forums but few could argue that they don't appear to be one of the best organized, most integrated, progressive soccer clubs around. Croatia FC and Peg have also demonstrated that they are among the elite few when it comes to providing opportunities to play and be successful at the highest levels.

It is becoming obvious though that the 86ers are in a no win situation when dealing with people like those decrying their efforts here on this forum. It's a thin line that delineates commitment to one's club/organization and self interest.

I'd be very surprised if anyone could point to a professional team that has existed as long as the 86ers in North America, in any sport, that has used the degree of locally developed talent that they have. Yet still they are castigated for turning a blind eye to local soccer at both the youth level by Roy and Regs at the senior level. The realities are this: there are about 18 spots on the 86ers roster. There are 100 000 youth players in BC and thousands more across Canada and, yes, the world who feel they should have one of those spots. There are three full time 86ers employees supplemented, in degrees, by several BC Lions empoyees (receptionist, game day staff, telemarketers, etc.). Bob, Carl, and Scott Rattee (who I believe still does some work for the Lions as well-he was split b/w the two teams last year) are the only full time staff members.

There are only so many hours in a day. Expecting them to come to your club's events Roy is great and your perserverance in trying to attract their attention to your players is great, but think how many other clubs also want Bob and Carl to come to AGM's and Award Nights. I worked as Marketing Manager for the team in 1997. I know the volume of requests for such appearances. I know the volume of requests to consider certain players. It is overwhelming and would require many more staff members for it to be feasible to have the club take part in all such requests even if they did think it was a worthwhile mechanism for showing 'support'. The team fields enquiries from around the world regularly from players wanting tryouts to coaches wanting a job with the team to people trying to sell every product under the sun.

Just the fact that there is resentment about one foreign player taking a roster spot from a local player indicates just how proprietary local soccer fans have become over the team. 17 of 18 spots for local players is considered a betrayal of local players. Check out any other franchise and they'll tell you those sentiments are anachronistic. Look at the Lions. Take away Passaglia and show me a current player who could even spell Vancouver before the Lions signed him.

re: Alan, foreign media, local mainstream media
I just don't understand people's digs at Alan's comments about Argentine press people contacting the team looking for info. The Sun recently sent Gary Mason down to Texas to check out hockey down there. How is it somehow Alan's fault that he responds to Argentinian media about the 86ers. He is the Media Relations Person for the team and does it on an almost volunteer basis. Again, Roy , I don't know what else you expect a franchise the size of the 86ers to do in terms of 'recognizing the community'. As your suggestion was steered toward Alan as a reporter and not as the 86ers Media person, surely you must be kidding if you think he isn't out there enough covering local soccer.

As for the 86ers using clout to keep the team's profile high in the mainstream media. Toze is entirely right. There are very few people in either print, radio or TV who feel confident enough to take on a soccer story intelligently, in a way that people who follow and understand the game wouldn't wince at. Consequently coverage is scant and they dismiss soccer as boring as the reason why it doesn't get more coverage. Dan Stinson is capable but appears bored the last few seasons. He's had few stories of any depth or incisiveness. It's all by the book game reports, happy face player profiles, and the odd "are they going to fold?" story. Must be hard to be motivated as the soccer writer when your editor, Gary Mason, doesn't have a clue about the game and in his two page end of year summary (perhaps initself the worst piece of sportswriting I've seen by a professional) manage to give the World Cup about two column inches and half of that was about supposed English hooligans. The idiot who was doing the Province's coverage (before Stewart Hunter -think that's his name) was borderline psychotic. Jack Keating was his name and he had to be removed from the beat due to what most people would say was 'general incompetance'. Alan must have seen him in the press box. He couldn't follow the game and ended up relying on Doug Finley , the previous Media Relations guy for the team, to help him get his copy done.

TV guys are picked on their abilities to look and sound good in front of the camera and have thorough knowledge of hockey, baseball, football and basketball. Even on Sports Page those sports comprise 90% of the coverage given. Barry MacDonald has done some passable work on soccer. It gets thin after that. As for radio, Gary Raible of News 1130 is the only one who even bothers coming to the games for the most part. He's a fan and gives the team decent coverage during the season.

re: Metro teams competing in A-League
The topic came up recently at a Westside post training pints session. Consensus was that, similar to what Regs said, if we were able to train four days a week and had the budget of the 86ers we would do just as well as them with the players we have. I have always shaken my head at this and said no way. I'm still not inclined to agree but I do think Westside right now is playing as well as any Metro team can be expected to play and two more nights of training would give us the additional fitness to help adjust to the pace of the A-League. Add to that the fact that the 86ers took a step back last year compared to the run they had in 1997 and I think the equation is starting to look a bit more likely but still not there.

We have three or four really promising young players who are ready to take the next step and show a dramatic improvement in their abilities as players. If they did that and we added some pace at centre back (as mentioned, Gary and I aren't the quickest centre backs... anymore) then I think you could throw Westside in to the A-League with the 86ers budget and ability to train four days a week and we would do well. We have scorers, players with excellent first touch, excellent instincts, tremendous comptetitive spirit, and with the changes mentioned with young players and old, we would be competitive.

I can also see Peg with some fine tuning and a few additions making the same assertion but even though I don't know their squad as well as ours, I do see a couple more gaping holes that would need addressing. No piss take, but the gap between their best and worst players is too noticeable. If Peg had players like Jinky, Rick C., and a some others back, the case would be stronger. I don't think any other team in Metro is anywhere near good enough to make a run at A-League.

As for Alan's gambit that a pre-season Sounders team would wipe the floor with Peg (or us, by extension), I don't think it would happen. Every team takes a while to get up to speed and get into a rhythm and Metro Prem teams are in Cup mode right now and should be right on top of their game as most are. I personally wouldn't be trembling at the prospect of playing an A-League team in pre-season mode. I think a three game series would be close. Let's remember Jason Jordan was the 86ers leading scorer this year and with Indo this year he's been average. Not only that but it looks like he spent the offseason taking Nuffy's up on some personal services contract he must be on.

re: Ajax program
Alan is right here. This has to be considered a work in progress. Comparisons to programs run by Chelsea are moot. Chelsea are not operating on revenues of $400 000 per year. Remember, this is not an Ajax program yet. The one in South Africa is. There is strong interest from Ajax, they have come over to visit and the report was favourable, but it's still in negotiations (well, not so much negotiations but Ajax still haven't made up their mind). With no cash from Ajax there is no alternative but to charge players. If Ajax commit, then yes, the fees have to go and it truly has to become the year round program that will draw the best young players to the best available coaches and not just the best young players whose parents can afford to drop $1300 in fees to be coached by those who may or may not be among the best coaches.

I saw some of the early sessions and it was all Range Rovers and replica jerseys (Ajax, of course- as if that's going get you to Holland)
Bottom line: If $180 000 is coming in and it's a break even proposal, Bart's walking away with an even better salary than I heard he was on. Knowing the rates they get on fields at UBC and the deal they have with Umbro, I'm not too sure where all that money is ending up and the sooner the deal with Ajax is sorted the better because questions are going to start to surface. Not about financial improprieties but about whether this is really just a privately run soccer school or a fully intergrated developmental program. Again, a work in progress that I think has incredible potential, but at the moment, seems more entrepreneruial than developmental.

re: Peg players v 86ers players
Well, that's up to the individual players to determine how they define themselves. Reedie was Brick Man long before he was either and I know he has a secret tattoo of Joe Petroni somewhere on his body. This is an entirely different matter than the rumour about Fash regularly 'tattooing' Reedie's ass.

Regs, I think the issue of what the 86ers have done for senior men's soccer is misguided. What are they supposed to do? They draw players from Metro occasionally and offer them varying degrees of money, the chance to train in a more professional environment, travel, etc. I think the complaint would be more valid if they weren't drawing from the local talent pool as I'm sure most other senior men's leagues in other A-League cities compain about.

Compensation for clubs? I could be wrong but I don't think clubs sign players directly to agreements to play. The only thing I recall signing is a registration form for the VMSL. Thus, I, and every other player in the league, am free to walk away from my team and play for any other team in the league without compensation due to Westside (no need to write in with 'stale loaf of bread' suggestions for compensation). Again, I'm not sure if this is the same at all clubs but with the way players move around it seems to be the norm.

You yourself have said that you don't think Premier is the place for developing talent and that there isn't much coaching going on at your club and many others. So, it's hard to make the claim that Peg and Metro Prem teams in general are developing talent for the 86ers to come and pluck away without compensation.

I think I'm done.

By SYSA/SFC (Roy) (206.108.197.18 - 206.108.197.18) on Saturday, March 13, 1999 - 09:00 pm:

Gregor
Nice to hear from a Bob Supporter.
If Westside would ever leave Vancouver to travel to Surrey they would see why I am proud of the development in place. Unfortunately Westside has to rely on other organizations to develop players and only the Premier side shows well. Ask the U21 Westside what its like to play a squad of SFC players that have developed through the organization, 4-1 Peg both times.
Simon and Reno have bent my ear more than once asking how we go about structuring our Club and how these players are developed. Perhaps you should spend more time in Surrey. If you handled the Marketing for the 86ers you would know about SFC. The fourth full time empolyee of the 86ers Marion Hind asked to be part of our Club.
As for your comments on our Club I can only refer to Bill Azzi's comments " the only Club in BC to catch and surpass Metro Ford" "everyone should follow what SFC is doing and structure their Club like them"
Surprising you use Pegasus and Croatia as examples since Pegasus is part of SFC/SYSA and I also admire the work of Milan and Croatia.
If you are basing your veiws on the SFC Premier squad I think Westside would have sunk deeply had they been handed the Franchise two days after Labor Day. They should be admired for sticking with it and using the young players and not quitting.
As to the Ajax Program, yes if Ajax were indeed totally involved it should be different but you pointed out the discrepancies in the numbers and even though Chelsea is not as rich as Ajax, the Australian players did not pay to play.
As to players developing in the VMSL I disagree. Peg has a young 18 year old playing with them and he has shown great strides as well as the young Keeper, Jake. The problem is players such as Aaron on Westside and Chris Moscatella (gone to ICSF) will get tired of not seeing the field and leave.
When was the last time Westside inserted a U21 player in a 0-0 tie as Peg did and made you run?

As to the media without Alan, Marty and Toze who would write anything about soccer. I beleive they do a great job, I just hope Alan does not lose what got him there.

Alan
We pay coaches as well and there is a huge difference between a Club and a "Soccer School"(Bobby's words). Coaches can be paid but hopefully they can supply the quality necessary and my opinion of Bart on and off the field does not support the money.
The sooner Soccer becomes a primary sport over baseball and hockey the sooner Soccer will develop.
Friday may not work as they may be attending another event.
Mondays are better if you can make it.

RM

By Chocolate Abdul-Regsheem (Admin) (209.53.4.104 - 209.53.4.104) on Saturday, March 13, 1999 - 11:19 pm:

Toze,

One morning you'll figure it out while drinking your coffee...

Gregor,

I was starting to wonder where you went... my manifesto (in draft) isn't as long ;-) My rant on support isn't towards using local players, it's just a feeling I get that there is a lack of respect for the league in general. I won't belabour the point anymore and just leave it at that.

At least someone is finally understanding my point about a metro team competing with the same budget... my head is usually much faster than I can type and so I can't get out everything I'm trying to really say in one go (plus I get sidetracked in the Alley and putting the boots to the occassional poster in here ;-) )

The compensation thing was just a jab towards a comment that Alan made about the sixers free transfer policy. In developing players, the metro league and the sixers are on a level playing field... both are zip. I'll hold that notion until I see more concrete evidence with the Ajax deal (though I do concede the umbro league is a good start last year).

~Regs.

PS If this post seems too civil coming from me, it is only because I'm still in shock from seeing Lennox dominate and get absolutely, without a doubt, ROBBED.

By Irish Chocolate Abdur-Burnsallah (Burnsie) (216.66.134.57 - 216.66.134.57) on Saturday, March 13, 1999 - 11:41 pm:

Gentlemen,

I can't believe I just read this entire thread but I did.

Alan, I don't use or notice 'smileys'. I don't like to to hide behind them. I would rather just say what I have to say and get on with it. By the way, I did notice your "Seriously though". Does this make you feel better ?

I really wish that all of the Ajax Development Supporters Club would come out of hiding and be honest. How much impact does Ajax have in this soccer school arrangement ? Maybe I am wrong Ajax does have a lot of money, right? If they were truly serious about this ' developmental' program, they would be funding it inclusively. How long are the 86ers going to dangle carrots in front of Johnny's 12 year old eyes ? If I came in with $50000 from my club Plumber F.C., do you really think kids and parents alike would jump at the opportunity to play for a developmental program sponsored by Plumber F.C.? Please no comparing my current club to Plumber F.C., it would be too easy and lack a lot of originality. I hope you see where I am going here. The 86ers and Ajax are using their names to promote a soccer school. Again, if Ajax was going to give a one hundred percent committment, then this program may be successful. If they took away the Ajax/86ers names, would Bart be able to do the same job ? Yes, he could take all the best players that other teams and clubs have created and make himself look like the cornerstone of their success. My last question is one I would like you to seriously think about. Should a good developmental program take all the best players and attribute their success to the program OR should they also include average players who have potential to be good/excellent players ? I believe a good developmental program should include all types of players , not just the ones who can afford the monthly fees. If a program can develop average players to become good players, then this to me is much more gratifying than taking the 'best' players and giving 'elite' status to the program just by adding a professional team's name.

P.S. I heard that in some districts that players and parents have been told that if they don't hook up with this Ajax system, this is going to hurt their chances of making the Metro teams. My source is very reliable. Is there any cadence to this proposterous claim ?

AS-SALAAMU ALAIKUM

By Irish Chocolate Abdur-Burnsallah (Burnsie) (216.66.134.57 - 216.66.134.57) on Saturday, March 13, 1999 - 11:48 pm:

Alan,

Two quick things. Firstly, please do not use the Lord's name in vane. It really shows a lack of vocabulary and I take it very personally.

Secondly, after talking to a couple of people who know you fairly well, I have been informed that the only one out of the two of us, who would experiment with foreign objects up their ass would be you. Should I smiley this or not ?

AS-SALAAMU ALAIKUM

By Martin Rose (Martin) (207.194.147.98 - 207.194.147.98) on Sunday, March 14, 1999 - 12:04 am:

Toze... My head is spinning from your comments about Peg and North Van Parks. The VMSL holds the allotments for all the parks used for all North Vancouver teams. I decided who plays at Kinsmen, Cleveland South, Inter-River, Kilmer Park etc. I am the one that deals with Donna Martin at the Parks Board every week. What proof could you have that Peg/Olys used deceit to get an allotment at Kinsmen. I shared Kinsmen equally between North Van two top clubs. Norvan Saints and Peg/Olys (Both Div 2) share the stadium on Saturday's and Norvan (Premier) and Pegasus share it on Sunday's. I was never contacted by Peg/Olys regarding allotments.

You claim that Peg lied about residency. Every municipality has this rule and it works in the same way dress codes work in restaurants. If they don't like you they need an excuse to kick you out. I would like to know one instance where Norvan did not sign a player because he was not a resident of North Vancouver.

Marty

By Chocolate Mammoud-AkShepallah (Imafatbastard) (209.52.121.48 - 209.52.121.48) on Sunday, March 14, 1999 - 12:20 am:

HEY, TOZE HOW DO YOU FEEL YOU POT STIRRING PIECE OF SHIT

By Chocolate Abdul-Regsheem (Admin) (209.53.4.104 - 209.53.4.104) on Sunday, March 14, 1999 - 12:21 am:

Somebody's been drinking...

~Regsheem.

By Chocolate Mammoud-AkShepallah (Imafatbastard) (209.52.121.48 - 209.52.121.48) on Sunday, March 14, 1999 - 12:23 am:

HEY **** YOU TOO REGS

By Chocolate Abdul-Regsheem (Admin) (209.53.4.104 - 209.53.4.104) on Sunday, March 14, 1999 - 12:25 am:

Gordon,

Have you lost control over your son tonite or what?

~Regs.

By Chocolate Mammoud-AkShepallah (Imafatbastard) (209.52.121.48 - 209.52.121.48) on Sunday, March 14, 1999 - 12:40 am:

HEY

Leave my old man out of this, we don't need any more pro sixer speakers in the forum.

Anyways, Political AL is doing just great...No late night games between the cheeks of your two pals tonight AL.

By Gregor Young (Gregor) (209.52.76.49 - 209.52.76.49) on Sunday, March 14, 1999 - 01:23 am:

Response to what I'm guessing Roy was trying to say

>Nice to hear from a Bob Supporter.

Yes I'd say I'm a supporter of Bob's. Not too fashionable but....

>If Westside would ever leave Vancouver to travel to Surrey they would see why I am proud >of the development in place. Unfortunately Westside has to rely on other organizations to >develop players and only the Premier side shows well. Ask the U21 Westside what its like >to play a squad of SFC players that have developed through the organization, 4-1 Peg both >times.

I get the feeling you thought I was being facetious (valiant attempt Burnsie) when I said that SFC sounded like an impressive club that should be proud of its efforts. I wasn't. I don't know much about SFC but, like I said, accepting what you've said about it on this forum, it sounds like a progressive club that offers a lot to its players. Westside does rely on other clubs, primarily UBC, to develop its players. Much like Peg. Should we be docked points for that? By the way Westside did come to Surrey. We played apallingly bad and were lucky to beat Surrey United.

>Simon and Reno have bent my ear more than once asking how we go about structuring our >Club and how these players are developed. Perhaps you should spend more time in Surrey. If >you handled the Marketing for the 86ers you would know about SFC. The fourth full time >empolyee of the 86ers Marion Hind asked to be part of our Club.

I'm sure they have but unfortunately you don't seem to be able to take that with a bit of grace. Westside is a smallish club (13 teams I believe). All adult, no youth unless you count the troubled (and perhaps soon to be disbanded) U-21 team. It's a very social club but has never really had any stake in developing talent. Maybe Simon and Rino are looking to change that. I don't know. Our team, in Premier, is almost a UBC Alumni team. A bunch of guys who just wanted to keep playing together. Success has drawn other quality players to it. I don't know Marion Hind. She didn't work for the team when I was there. It was me, Doug Finley, Penny Stead and Carl. I knew absolutely nothing about SFC when I worked there. I only know slightly more now. As I mentioned in my previous post, with only a handful of employees, the emphasis was/is on core activities like revenue generation, not relations with all the clubs around town. Simple reality.

>As for your comments on our Club I can only refer to Bill Azzi's comments " the only Club in >BC to catch and surpass Metro Ford" "everyone should follow what SFC is doing and >structure their Club like them"
>Surprising you use Pegasus and Croatia as examples since Pegasus is part of SFC/SYSA and >I also admire the work of Milan and Croatia.

Why is it surprising? My comments about your club were all positive. I think I smell booze on your posts.

>If you are basing your veiws on the SFC Premier squad I think Westside would have sunk >deeply had they been handed the Franchise two days after Labor Day. They should be admired >for sticking with it and using the young players and not quitting.

I've never expressed a view of the SFC Premier squad other than to say the league would be better off as an eight team league (and Surrey FC wouldn't be one of those eight). Why do you think Westside would have sunk deeply? You either have the players or you don't. Coaching at this level helps but only if its really good coaching that can assess situations quickly, make critical adjustments, and find the most effective way to approach opponents. The inference is that we have done something wrong by not using our U-21 players enough. We do use some players who are under 21 like Aaron, Robbie Hall, and some others on occasion. They play though because they have earned their spot, not because we're trying to develop young players. Like I said we're not really about development. We're about winning and enjoying ourselves.

>As to the Ajax Program, yes if Ajax were indeed totally involved it should be different but >you pointed out the discrepancies in the numbers and even though Chelsea is not as rich as >Ajax, the Australian players did not pay to play.

I'll say it again: it is not an Ajax program here in Vancouver. It may become one, but currently it is not. I'm not sure what you mean by I pointed out the discrepancies in the numbers...I said Chelsea don't operate on $400 000 revenue. Chelsea are nobody's poor cousins when it comes to the richness of clubs. How many clubs can you name with a budget like the 86ers that can fully fund at least seven developmental squads of various ages? It can't be done. I think charging kids to be part of it definitely compromises the integrity of the program and the longer it continues the more people will question it (as I said already) but there are costs to it and until/unless Ajax signs an agreement, the 86ers will have to cover those costs somehow. South Africa is Ajax money. Australia is Chelsea money. Vancouver is Vancouver money.

>As to players developing in the VMSL I disagree. Peg has a young 18 year old playing with >them and he has shown great strides as well as the young Keeper, Jake. The problem is >players such as Aaron on Westside and Chris Moscatella (gone to ICSF) will get tired of not >seeing the field and leave. When was the last time Westside inserted a U21 player in a 0-0 >tie as Peg did and made you run?

Well I could have some fun with what Peg did or didn't do against us but I won't. I will say we brought on Steve Dickinson, who is about 20 or 21, before Peg brought their youngster on and Steve scored the winning goal. Aaron plays plenty for us and scores for us. We have serious competition for all spots on the field ...except mine. Chris wisely moved to ICSF. We was not going to get any time playing with us this year. I'm only repeating and agreeing with what Regs said. It's not the best environment to develop talent.

Croatian PK's deprived me of a pefect record in Saturday Imp Cup picks. A team of destiny? No one can say they have an easy route to the finals.

By SYSA/SFC (Roy) (207.102.216.39 - 207.102.216.39) on Sunday, March 14, 1999 - 08:29 am:

Gregor
The Ajax Program in Vancouver is funded by the KIDS not the 86ers. I can name at least 5 Youth Clubs running development Programs the same size or larger on smaller budgets than $180,000.00 the 86ers collect from the kids.
I'm glad Westside recognizes the U21 problem. The reason Reno and Simon spoke with me (and I was flatterred) was to ask how they can align with a Youth Club.
My comments about Westside not coming to Surrey were directed mainly to the U21. We had to play at a shitty park (Strathcona) rather than them coming to Surrey two weeks previous on a great field. The result was the same.
We disagree on the young players, Peg has done a good job this year, albiet just a start, but then they will not be in the position of being too old all at once.
Note: UBC's up and coming Keeper is a SFC product that Mike covets.

RM

By Toze (209.17.167.71 - 209.17.167.71) on Sunday, March 14, 1999 - 09:12 am:

Forum,

I am a part time employee with the North Van rec commission. I was in a certain field allocators office when they handed me a handwritten and faxed copy of Pegasus S.C.'s team list. Asked if I knew the club I said that I did. Then I was asked if the team list seemed accurate...I was surprised and said I really did not know..., I was told they were suspicious of Pegasus's claim to fielding a North van based team which is criteria for field allotments.

I was further asked about the Peg/Olys situation and how they stacked against three North van Division one teams. I said that they were in a different division, two. It was then suggested that was contrary to their information and that they have a policy regarding Kinsmen about it being reserved for better teams.

The two of the three division one teams had applied for Kinsmen which is considered the North Shore's top facility. (I know that its not hard to get this info...but they did not seem to understand)

I guess my prior rant seemed a little blunt...but Peg would probably want to know this

Marty,

I don't doubt what you say, but perception is that it's the North Van rec commissions office who decide where people play.
If you decide field allotments, how come division one teams can't get Kinsmen...Hagars Spurs and Deep Cove Royals, when they tell me they always apply for it. What about McCartney Creek park, it's probably the best field in North Van.

Stir..Stir, my coffee that is

Toze

By Martin Rose (Martin) (207.194.146.38 - 207.194.146.38) on Sunday, March 14, 1999 - 12:48 pm:

Toze,

1) I've never heard of McCartney Creek Park but I will bring that up with Donna Martin.

2) Donna Martin has never, ever, mentioned anything about the conditions North Van parks has for teams playing at Kinsmen. I submitted to her a list of teams and their home fields. If this is such a big deal then why haven't any teams been kicked off the fields?

3) All the teams you mention that play Div 1 in North Van requested to play their home games on Sundays. Norvan and Peg already had Kinsmen on Sundays. North Vancouver only allows 3 games on Kinsmen each weekend and one of those is a Women's Premier Division game (I was told about that). They all would have played on gravel (below Premier) this year regardless of their field allotment anyway.

4) Deep Cove Royals do play their home games on Saturday's but I am of the opinion that a Deep Cove team should be playing home games in Deep Cove. (I'm working on that one)

5) No one from the North Van rec commissions office had any input whatsoever in where the teams played. They only gave me the number of fields I requested for and then let me know if they were available or not each week. For instance Norvan had originally thought they were going to enter a U-21 team. As was the case in previous years I was going to schedule them a 12noon in front of the Premier team. This meant that Norvan Saints would have had to play their games elsewhere. When the original schedule was
sent to Al Munro he screamed bloody murder that I took Norvan Saints off of Kinsmen. I told him that there were four spots available and that he could have two. He then informed me that there wasn't going to be a U-21 side so Norvan Saints got the second spot on Saturday's.

6) This residency thing is such a crock of shit. They do it in Burnaby and everyone submits fake lists (same names but addresses and phone numbers of friends, relatives, work places in the muncipality). No team picks their team based on the players place of residency. What are they going to do when the BCSA finally eliminates boundaries for competitive youth clubs? Tell a club in North Vancouver that has attracted talent from all over the lower mainland that they cannot play on any of their parks?

Marty

By Hanson (Mh) (207.194.18.99 - 207.194.18.99) on Sunday, March 14, 1999 - 03:38 pm:

Alan,

Thanks for the explanation on Ross and Payne. Those were moves that people I know still joke about at will.

How much have you seen of Sebrango? I remember the Canada-Cuba game(s) and only remember how utterly boring they were.

I also was interested in approx. how much 86ers players get paid for their season. I'm assuming Sebrango isn't coming here and building in the British Properties on his salary, but he has to be making decent coin for what he is doing. And how much could salaries fluctuate (sp?) between players? This meaning does a goalscorer:) like Mobilio make a lot more than a player who doesn't see as much of the field? Take a Cuban international player/import like Sebrango and a local, young, inexperienced University student like Spencer Coppin. How much more would one make than the other? Or is there a difference?

Cheers,

-Mmmbop

By Irish Chocolate Abdur-Burnsallah (Burnsie) (216.66.146.155 - 216.66.146.155) on Sunday, March 14, 1999 - 10:04 pm:

Gregor " Websters" Young,

I'll make sure use my dictionary next time before using a fancy word like FACETIOUS. You know my edukation is very limated.

I am very surprised with your comments regarding Croatia B. I thought you would have walked all over them. I wonder if they fielded the same team against us. As I stated last week, we deserved to beat them with 10 men. Where did you play the game ? Did they have any chances to score ?

The fans interpretations of the events that take place in the game are embarrassing. They truly believe that every ref is out to get them. I wonder how many of them wear glasses or actually watch the game. It seems like Croatia can never do anything wrong on the field. The one thing you can't knock is the amount of support they have. The Croatians obviously love the game and their team. They certainly outnumbered the one fan that was on our sideline.

MacGyver, are you in for a St. Patrick's pint on Wednesday ? My dad is playing at Culpeppers in the evening so I will probably be in your neck of the woods. Let me know

AS-SALAAMU ALAIKUM

By Gregor Young (Gregor) (209.52.76.43 - 209.52.76.43) on Sunday, March 14, 1999 - 10:42 pm:

Burnsie,

First off, the important stuff, pints with you on St. Patricks day sounds suitably deadly; I'm in. Let me know what time you're thinking and I, personally, wouldn't mind seeing some other forum contributors drop by.

Does Danny take requests? I could go for some Pogues with my Guinness.

As for Croatia B, either you guys are better than you think or they turned it up a notch. They had a couple of chances and played very sensibly, tactics wise, for the most part. Good goalkeeping helped them but we weren't due much more than a three goal victory. I don't think we worried any of the Croatia A guys watching.

The game was at South Memorial so no excuses there. They definitely get the support out though and I'm sure every now and then it sways an unsure ref to throw some calls their way. I'm sure, like you say, they feel the opposite but ....

Couldn't resist being spelling monitor. Just glad I didn't take your Lord's name in vain...

By Irish Chocolate Abdur-Burnsallah (Burnsie) (216.66.146.155 - 216.66.146.155) on Sunday, March 14, 1999 - 10:55 pm:

Gregor,

I know it definitely is not a case of me thinking we are better than we are. I KNOW we are shit so the result must be attributed to Croatia B stepping up their game. After seeing them play, I honestly thought you would beat them by 7 or 8.
I believe Danny does take requests but I am not sure the Pogues are in their repetoire. You never know......

What is your phone number, Macgyver ? If you don't want to post it over the Forum then you can call me at 448-9965 and pass it my way.

See you on Wednesday ?

By Irish Chocolate Abdur-Burnsallah (Burnsie) (216.66.146.155 - 216.66.146.155) on Sunday, March 14, 1999 - 10:59 pm:

Gregor,

I just noticed a typo. It is not 'repetoire' but rather 'repertoire'.

AS-SALAAMU ALAIKUM

By Milan @ Croatia SC (209.53.22.112 - 209.53.22.112) on Sunday, March 14, 1999 - 11:52 pm:

Gregor, Burnsie -

I watched both Westside vs. Croatia B and Croatia B vs. Club Ireland.

Croatia B played poorly versus Club Ireland.
There were many unforced errors and mental breakdowns. At kick-off they were facing a team that they beat 4-0 and now only have 9 men. That definately takes away from their edge and it was a psychological advantage for Club Ireland. However, Burnsie, you really should give your side more credit. You guys played very well and I don't think anybody noticed you were missing a player. Your offside trap was executed well and stopped a lot of runs.

Croatia B played smart against Westside.
Because Westside shattered Sporting 10-1, it gave Croatia B a clear signal - play defence. If the game had opened up earlier Croatia would have been in more trouble. But Croatia did well to keep the game relatively contained. Some credit has to go to Croatia B coaching (Marko Brkich). Also, the players were up for this game, they wanted it. There was a sincere feeling that this game could be won and they went in with the attitude that it's 11 vs. 11 league records mean nothing once the whistle is blown. In the end it was the pace of soccer and fitness that decided the game - which are the main differences between the two teams.

Re: Fans
Seriously, what do you expect from a support? I know that support from other teams protest just as much but its not as overwhelming because of the numbers. Sit in the stands of any International soccer match and you'll realize that taunts and hisses are the norm. Like I keep saying, it just looks worse because the fans are on the sidelines and not in stands. And Burnsie, when you truly support a team they CAN'T do anything wrong on the field. :)

As for the numbers, the 90's probably showed the poorest support for our club compared to our history. Games at Callister Park in the 70's commonly ran at 1,000 - 2,000 and during our Provincial and National reign in '85 and Provincial again in '86 at Swangard we'd see close to those numbers as well. But times have changed for soccer but I think with some new modern initiatives we can grow it out again.

I'd love to see other teams bringing out more support as well. I think a lot of teams have a potential niche but lack organization to carve it out. I think the league should be a centralized resource to help clubs organize initiatives to grow their own club support. It should be centralized in the league because everybody benefits in the end. Bigger clubs could offer direction for smaller clubs looking to grow their support.

This market has a lot of potential and clubs should be organizing now.

ml

By Chocolate Abdul-Regsheem (Admin) (209.53.4.104 - 209.53.4.104) on Monday, March 15, 1999 - 06:40 am:

Milan,

You truely have us buffled... you mentioned somewherelse in the forum that something was before your time and then here you talk about huge crowds in the 70's...

I may have to finally offer you an account here and give you the nick "Mystery Man/Boy"...

~Regs.

By Milan @ Croatia SC (209.53.22.112 - 209.53.22.112) on Monday, March 15, 1999 - 08:01 am:

Regs -

Didn't you think I might have looked at archived game reports? Souvenir books? Stories from the elders? You weren't around for WWI but do you know what happened?

Ask Higgs about it. He can tell you the crowds used to be bigger... he was there.

ml

By Chocolate Abdul-Regsheem (Admin) (209.53.4.104 - 209.53.4.104) on Monday, March 15, 1999 - 08:51 am:

Higgsy was in WWI ? I knew he was old, but that's incredible ;-)

~Regs.

By Milan @ Croatia SC (209.53.5.53 - 209.53.5.53) on Monday, March 15, 1999 - 10:16 am:

Regs -

Also keep in mind that back then other clubs had good support also. When I mention a 1,000 - 2,000 figure, that includes both teams supports. For example, a Columbus vs. Croatia match back in the 70's probably had more Italians in the bleachers than Croats. I'll look through some old newspaper articles to get a better idea.

I think the attendance at last years Imperial Cup final was close to 700 I believe. Marty, can you verify that? I could be way off.

ml

By Irish Chocolate Abdur-Burnsallah (Burnsie) (216.66.135.11 - 216.66.135.11) on Monday, March 15, 1999 - 05:15 pm:

Milan,

When Croatia B beat us 4 - 0 , I was very impressed with their play. This is why I was surprised they couldn't maintain the same style of game against 10 players. Sometimes it is difficult to play against teams that are down a player because they raise their game and just hope for a break, which we almost got with the second half breakaway. Point well taken, Milan. Good luck against Westside although I do fancy Westside by 2 goals. Sorry, but I can't see anyone beating Westside this season.

By Milan @ Croatia SC (209.53.22.112 - 209.53.22.112) on Monday, March 15, 1999 - 06:25 pm:

Burnsie -

We did play extremely well at Minoru. Also, the difference in your play between the two games is fairly drastic as well. A full squad from you guys would have been a different game (although I'm not saying the result would have been different). You guys could have called up some U-21's.

And thanks for the wishing us luck and slicing us at the same time.

ml

By Irish Chocolate Abdur-Burnsallah (Burnsie) (216.66.150.91 - 216.66.150.91) on Monday, March 15, 1999 - 10:03 pm:

Milan,

This was not ' slicing you up '. You would know if I was slicing someone up. I just think that Westside is too strong at this point in time.

Our Under 21's had a game at exactly the same time as us so we were unable to get more players. Three players were no shows and one guy went to the wrong field. He didn't check his messages. Oh well, I am sure we would be sitting here out of the cup by now anyway.

Happy St. Patrick's Day everyone !

AS-SALAAMU ALAIKUM

By Alan Douglas (206.12.82.24 - 206.12.82.24) on Tuesday, March 16, 1999 - 08:56 pm:

Roy,
I have spoken with Bob many time on the subject of the 86ers YDP, and I know exactly what he means when he occasionally refers to it as a “soccer school” So please don’t think you can impress me by taking a few of Bob’s words out of context and throwing them in my face. When Bob concedes that it is just a soccer school he’s speaking of its present condition, and how it so far has not had a chance to become anything more. But with time, effort, money, and a little co-operation from youth soccer organisers it will become more.

I take it then that you think a Metro-Ford team with professional coaches and charging kids $300/month is fully entitled to compete in youth leagues. You can tell, so you say, the difference between a youth club and a soccer school. We’ve just established that the difference is not the money, so it must be something else. Can you say exactly what that difference is, or is it just a vague feeling you have?

The other question I would like you to consider is this: what should the 86ers have done (or be doing) in order to have proper elite youth teams which you think would be appropriate for league play (one or two years up and out of contention, as the 86ers would like)? The 86ers want to develop their own players; they want to have a club structure. What should they be doing?

You obviously think that starting a professional youth program, trying to enter youth leagues, and seeking assistance from a top European club is not the way for the 86ers to be going. So what do you think the 86ers should be doing to develop their own players? What do they have to do so that you would say, “yes, that’s a youth club” instead of “no, that’s just a soccer school”?

As for SFC, I'll aim for next Monday then. 7ish at NAP.

Alan/

By Alan Douglas (206.12.82.24 - 206.12.82.24) on Tuesday, March 16, 1999 - 09:19 pm:

Burnsie,
I’ll watch my language, but I find it more than a little hilarious that you’re asking me not to take the Lord’s name in vain while at the same time you’re calling yourself BurnsALLAH!

As for the Ajax deal, unfortunately these things take time. Ajax has been paying most of its attention lately to South Africa, and Vancouver was pretty much put on the back burner for the winter. I’m sure the weather had a lot to with that. Here’s the timeline as I understand it (so as to answer your concerns about how long this “carrot” has been dangled, and also provide some useful background for Toze and Milan who seem interested):

1998
February -- Bobby starts talking with youth soccer people about setting up an 86ers youth program. He wants the 86ers to develop their own players and have a proper club structure.

March -- Bart Choufour gets involved and gets the nutty idea of contacting his beloved Ajax. Bob smiles and says yeah sure whatever.

April -- To everyone’s utter amazement, Ajax is interested. They’re just starting up their global development network and are looking for foreign clubs to work with. Bart is invited to Amsterdam where he hits it off with Ajax Youth Director Hans Westerhof -- they both got their degree in physical education at the same Amsterdam university.

May -- Phone calls between Vancouver and Amsterdam. If the 86ers can put together a year-round professionally run youth program worthy of the Ajax name by September, then they can start to work out a deal

June to July -- Bart is the expert on Ajax methods, is a good organiser having run his own soccer school, has a dynamic get-things-done mentality, and is the front man in the dealings with Ajax, so he’s put in charge. Nobody is claiming he is the best coach in BC. Lot’s of work getting the program together.

August -- tryout camps, Bart picks his coaches.

September -- program kicks off

October -- Ajax send a youth coach to Vancouver to check it out. Turns out he was born in BC. He’s impressed with what he sees here and recommends it to Westerhof. An article in Dutch describing the visit can be found on the official Ajax webpage.

http://www.ajax.nl/nieuws/nieuws/98/10/86ers.html

November -- More discussion with Ajax. Westerhof draws up an outline for a deal (which I have a copy of).

December -- 86ers review outline. Approve it. Westerhof presents it to the Ajax board. They give green light to go ahead.

1999
January -- more discussion with Westerhof. 86ers are asked to draw up a formal and detailed proposal.

February -- proposal worked on by Bart and Bob, okayed by 86ers President Glen Ringdal, sent to Amsterdam at the end of the month (I haven’t seen the proposal myself and know almost nothing about what’s in it)

March -- waiting for Ajax response.

The future (hopefully, and not necessarily in this order) -- Ajax board approves 86ers proposal; Westerhof comes to Vancouver, evaluates the program, the kids, the coaches, the 86ers operation, and the 86ers style and level of play (for the possible loaning of Ajax reserve players to Vancouver); formal deal drawn up, approved by Ajax Board and by 86ers, and signed.

The bottom line is that Ajax is very interested but this isn’t going to happen overnight. They are going to exercise due diligence and look before they leap. But from what I’ve heard, most of the indications are very good.

Oh, and the 86ers YDP is very far from having all the best players. Time will tell, but from what little I’ve seen so far these kids are really coming along.

Alan/

PS
I honestly don’t know anything about those claims you mentioned, but then I have very limited involvement in general youth soccer.

By Alan Douglas (206.12.82.78 - 206.12.82.78) on Tuesday, March 16, 1999 - 09:41 pm:

Everyone,
I think a big problem with this YDP issue is that the 86ers naively thought that the hard part in all this would be working out a deal with Ajax -- a rich and powerful club half a world away speaking a foreign language. They focused their energies on that, but working with Ajax has proven to be the easy part.

Ironically, the hard part has been trying to deal with the youth soccer people right here in our own backyard. The 86ers will eventually need to have the kids full-time for this program to work. They need to have them playing regularly against high level competition in something other than exhibitions. But so far they’ve been stonewalled by youth soccer organisers who’ve latched onto the idea that this is just another money-grubbing soccer school and won’t let go.

Maybe if the whole Ajax connection was never made, then the 86ers would have spent more time worrying about how to fit their program into the framework of BC youth soccer. Maybe they would have worked harder trying to please the BC youth soccer bigwigs instead of the Ajax bigwigs. Maybe they would have decided to scale down the program so it didn’t have seven professional coaches, and in doing so end up with something closer to what SFC is doing. Maybe. But it didn’t happen that way. Ajax showed clear interest very early on, and the 86ers saw the possibilities and went for it. Putting together a program good enough to impress Ajax became the priority. It meant a big budget, stepping on a few toes, and giving plenty of ammo to the 86ers-bashers. Maybe it was a mistake to focus so much on Ajax, but if so then I think it was an understandable one.

We all have a simple choice in this. Either we want Ajax here or we don’t. If you think that we’re doing just fine on our own, and that forward thinking clubs like SFC (and I say that sincerely) can guide us out of the international soccer wilderness, then just keep on torpedoing the 86ers YDP. Without support or co-operation it will probably crash and burn, Ajax will take their business elsewhere (California, Australia, China, Argentina, who knows), and people like Roy Mitchell will remain King of the Hill of BC youth soccer development -- the status quo will remain with those that now have the power retaining it.

On a related note: did you folks see the proposal for the creation of a new club-based soccer association without boundaries or other restrictions (which would allow the 86ers youth teams to compete)?

http://www.bcsoccerweb.com/features/letter15.htm

Alan/

By Alan Douglas (206.12.82.78 - 206.12.82.78) on Tuesday, March 16, 1999 - 09:46 pm:

Gregor,
The sheer volume of requests for appearances that the 86ers receive each week is one of the three things that has really staggered me since joining the club. The others, as you mentioned, are the constant flood of applications for tryouts, and the tremendous amount of work that the front office staff do.

However you read me wrong with that Seattle Sounders “gambit”. There is no way I would ever cheer for the goddam Sounders to beat a Canadian team. This was more of a “talk is cheap, if you think you can play with the big boys then why don’t you actually get off your asses and do something about it” sort of deal.

Hanson,
I haven’t seen any official salary figures, and my copy of the 86ers budget is missing the page that has total player salary on it (some of the more attractive ladies from the Lions staff were in the copy room that day and I must have been distracted -- I ended up with two page 4’s and no page 3).

However as I understand it, some players are on amateur contracts and get nothing, others are paid on a minimal per-game basis (a few hundred bucks maybe) or per-month (a thousand?), while the regular players draw more substantial salaries. I’ve only heard rumours as to what top players make. I’m sure it’s less than $40K for the summer -- probably closer to $20K. I know that $70K is considered very big bucks for the richer A-League teams. Maybe some of the former players here would like to volunteer some numbers.

Cheers,
Alan/

By SYSA/SFC (Roy) (206.108.197.18 - 206.108.197.18) on Tuesday, March 16, 1999 - 10:52 pm:

Alan
The bottom line with me is that both Bobby and Bart stood at a meeting which I provided the facility and made statements which time has proven to be falsehoods. Sure if Ajax puts money into it and the kids are not used as the source of funds, not only myself but others will look at this again.
Metro Ford does not charge $300 per month. Their fees are $100.00/year which includes a week long camp and 10 months soccer.
Dale Mitchell may charge $300.00 for his Soccer Academy which is a "soccer school".
Bobby was not quoted out of context.
I do not consider myself "king of the hill" but just a dedicated volunteer.

7 Professional Coaches??? Bart and his buddies?
Not one of them holds a candle to SFC Head Coach McCann and he doesn't receive any $$$$$$

rm

By Chocolate Abdul-Regsheem (Admin) (209.53.4.104 - 209.53.4.104) on Tuesday, March 16, 1999 - 11:21 pm:

Alan,

You're quite correct when you say talk is cheap...

~Regs.

By Milan @ Croatia SC (209.53.22.112 - 209.53.22.112) on Tuesday, March 16, 1999 - 11:47 pm:

Alan -

I can't speak for everybody but I'd like to take a stab at why people get bitter at this situation:

Youth clubs and organizations take a lot of pride in developing players - because they are doing a service to the sport of soccer. The most precious reward for a club is when a player it has developed is recognized for an outstanding achievement. Keep in mind, these clubs are run by volunteers who donate insane amounts of time for no or little money.

The 86ers are a business. The objective of any business should be to make money. So, a business strolls in and scoops a club's potentially highest achieving players, baiting them with little more than the name of a world-class soccer organization and making the players pay money for it. The youth club is left feeling raped of it's precious rewards by a business trying to make a profit and at the same time being exempt from rules that other player development clubs have to suffer with.

Do we need Ajax in BC? No and yes. No, because Ajax was built on a standard European model for soccer that many people in BC are already familiar with but haven't been given the freedom to implement (See 'A New Organization is Needed' on the BC Soccer Web). Yes, we do need Ajax because BC needs a superior authority in player development than the BCSA - somebody that the BCSA cannot dismiss with its constitution committees, districts and special interest groups. However, only when the 86ers realize that it is in their own best interests to have a revamped BCSA will they use an Ajax-backed plan to do that. Like you said Alan, the status quo will remain with those that now have the power retaining it -- except those people are the BCSA.

ml

By Irish Chocolate Abdur-Burnsallah (Burnsie) (216.66.133.137 - 216.66.133.137) on Tuesday, March 16, 1999 - 11:55 pm:

Alan,

I have converted the faith of White Chocoallah. My converted name was sent to me by the Chosen One. My fellow brothers have discovered a new look on life, and I like it. I am very honored to be called Irish Chocolate Mamoud Abdur-Burnsallah.

I really do hope the Ajax development program works. White Chocoallah only know how much this country needs some guidance in the game of football. If this is being set up for the right reasons- the players, then I hope it takes off as soon as possible. If it is being used as another publicity stunt for Lenarduzzi, I hope it flops as quickly as Croatia claims Simon does in 18 yard box. Thanks for giving me a little more information to help understand the program.

I have briefly worked with Bart and know that he is more than qualified for such a role. Good luck to Bart.

AS-SALAAMU ALAIKUM AND SAAD

By Irish Chocolate Abdur-Burnsallah (Burnsie) (216.66.133.137 - 216.66.133.137) on Wednesday, March 17, 1999 - 01:21 am:

Hanson/Alan,

The numbers are very lame. When I played in 1990 and 1991 they younger guys like myself were getting anywhere from $4500 - $6000 per season. Some guys were hovering around $ 8000 - $10000 ( the Catliff's and Mobilio's ). I believe one or maybe two were hovering around $20000 and one of them would be the current coach. I don't know if these numbers are extremely accurate but I heard these figures come up in discussion. I can't imagine that today's team would be making as much as the players in this time because the team does not have the financial backing that it had during this time period.

AS-SALAAMU ALAIKUM

By Irish Chocolate Abdur-Burnsallah (Burnsie) (216.66.133.137 - 216.66.133.137) on Wednesday, March 17, 1999 - 01:26 am:

Newsflash,

Irish Chocolate Mamoud Abdur-Burnsallah signs to play for Indo Canadians in 1999-2000 season.

AS-SALAAMU ALAIKUM AND SOUD

By SYSA/SFC (Roy) (206.108.197.60 - 206.108.197.60) on Wednesday, March 17, 1999 - 06:38 am:

Milan

Well said.

Burnsie
Now we are back on the opposite sides ...Bart

Indo??? Maye you could work with my Brown Bombers on the U21 SFC Peg team.

rm

By Gregor Young (Gregor) (207.194.147.50 - 207.194.147.50) on Wednesday, March 17, 1999 - 10:05 am:

Regarding what 86ers get paid.

I'm not going to say what individuals are making because that's nobody's business and I just happen to know because I've talked with people who know.

Suffice to say Domo makes the most and was wise to sign a two year contract as many others were asked/expected to take (substantial) pay cuts this year.

Excluding Domo whose actual salary I do not know, I believe nobody makes more than $12K. Most are well below this.

Many of the younger/non starting players are on per game contracts. This has been a standard policy going back to before I played. The difference is when I played you got $300 if you got on the field and $150 if you dressed. Unless it changed last year the fees are now half that.

My first year I was on a per game contract at $300 per. I ended up starting almost every game so it turned out that I made what I would've if I'd signed for a set amount (ie. around $6K is what I would've been able to get). Bob also made sure that for games like the ones against Benfica, AC Milan, Hongkong, etc. that per game players received a double payment, since 'set amount' players were receiving an additional game fee.

Looking forward to Maverick's. Hope many here can make it. I'll get there about six.

By Dutch Chocolate Abdul-Wahaab Big'unallah (Chris) (204.244.19.199 - 204.244.19.199) on Wednesday, March 17, 1999 - 12:42 pm:

Although I am far removed (and out-dated) from the local scene, I quite enjoyed this lengthy thread. Since I enjoyed it so much, permit me a couple of observations.

Yes the 86'ers should be appluaded for there efforts to keep soccer in the poblic spotlight (not an easy task since the glory days of the Whitecaps). However, herein lies the difficulty. Soccer in B.C., if not Canada, is an extremely POLITICAL ENTITY. It always has been and shall continue as such until massive changes are made. How long are people going to put up with the old boys club that has taken us from Tony to Bob, Carl? We have such little success on the international front because we have stayed with the same outdated ideas at the helm. While other countries surge ahead (USA), we try to keep our heads afloat by following people who are only interested in maintaining the status quo ( and their fat pay stubs). Is it possible that people in the soccer community are getting tired of this mentality?

The CSA knows that soccer is the most popular sport in the nation amoung youngsters, and it will continue no matter how badly they **** up at the international level. The kids keep signing up. They always have. However, is the product any better? Are we producing players that are significantly better than some mentioned in the forum when they were in their prime(Burnsie, Reedy, Gregor, Regs and so on)? Absolutely not. When we watch other countries play we are routinely dazzled by what several players are able to. Our lads look like plumbers by comparison. They show tons of heart and work ethic, but there is nothing smooth or entertaining about the game they play. Hard to imagine why.

We have turned a too slow, no touch player into a soccer deity in Vancouver. Bobby played for the Whitecaps not because he was good, but because he WASN'T an import. I can;t recall a player who was ragged more every time he touched the ball, or who caused the crowd more anxiety when the opposition attacked his side. I respect what Bobby was able to do with his limited ability, but to make him a guru based on past glory of which his role is quetionable, is foolishness.

Hence the POLITICAL monster. Bobby is not a soccer God with some mythical vision of where to take the game. He is OLD. The sixers were once a breath of fresh air. with a decent product. Where has Bobby taken them? Where did his vision take the national program?

Hence the doubter's of Ajax's involvement. I would love to see this program flourish. It just seems unlikely that it will with the same old crew in charge of the ship. Why didn't Ajax finance the operation as they have in other locations? DOUBT. Lots of it. They will watch and see what happens. However, few European clubs have the tradition or expectations of Ajax. How long will it take for them to recognize the problems and abondon ship?

Ajax involvement would be a welcome change. But we not bring some European expertise in to run the "flagship" and provide the coaching. Yes this takes $$, but with the 180k, plus some help from the heavy coffers of the CSA, it would be a far more viable, and interesting, endeavor.

I hope I'm wrong about this. Time will tell.

Chris

P.S. An interesting similarity is the Toronto Raptors. They hired Isiah Thomas based on past glory. Nothing but turmoil ensued after quick hit success with no vision. Once he was removed, stability and some coherent plan returned. The Raptors are not outstanding, but they are on the right track.

By SYSA/SFC (Roy) (207.102.216.132 - 207.102.216.132) on Wednesday, March 17, 1999 - 01:02 pm:

Chris

Hear hear!!

Why did we have such a successful U23 Olympic qualifying team and then show up with a World Cup squad that couldn't score a goal?

Where were the Paul Shepherd's, Nial's etc.
On BL Shitlist or not part of the Club.
Hopefully Valentine was looking at young
players on Sunday and not just adding to his tan lines.

Note: Bobby and Carl are part of the 7 Professional coaches at the Ajax YDP
Program.

By Martin Rose (Martin) (207.194.146.28 - 207.194.146.28) on Wednesday, March 17, 1999 - 03:11 pm:

Roy,

Successful Olympic team????????

Do you mean Bruce Twamley's U-21's that went to Malaysia and now form the nucleus of the U-23 "Olympic" hopefuls?

Bobby coached the last attempt at Olympic qualifying. They came close but really only Davide Xausa, Jason DeVos and Jim Larkin appeared to have much potential as World Cup players. Even Nial didn't look that good in that one. Certainly Paul Shepard made a hash of it when he came in for the injured Larkin late in the Tourney.

Marty

By Alan Douglas (206.12.82.43 - 206.12.82.43) on Wednesday, March 17, 1999 - 04:06 pm:

Roy,
We all appreciate that you donated the room for that meeting, but please don’t forget that I was also there and taking notes. I have them (ruffle ruffle ruffle) right here in front of me. So, what falsehoods? The only things I can see are a couple of the more ambitious ideas that have not yet come to fruition. Well? Care to elaborate? Or are you going to continue to duck questions and hide behind vague accusations?

It’s great that SFC has such a good coach in McCann who works for free. How did he come to be involved with SFC? How long ago? Does he live in Surrey? Does he have son or daughter who plays there? Do you think he would come to work for the 86ers YDP out at UBC for free? If not, then how much do you suppose the YDP would have to pay him in order to get him out there?

I know that Metro-Ford doesn’t charge $300/month. If you recall it was a hypothetical situation. Many youth clubs in the US pay for professional coaches and transfer the cost to the kids. We both agree that doing so doesn’t turn them into “soccer schools”. Apparently though if the 86ers try to do the same thing then they do become a “soccer school” in your eyes. I am trying to understand your thinking on this, but so far you’re being evasive and throwing vague one-line answers back at me.

Actually, Bob is not one of the YDP coaches, while Carl only coaches the kids outside the 86ers season. Other coaches include UBC’s Mike Mosher who handles the U-17’s, Ajit Braich (U-10) who is also the technical director for Surrey Youth Soccer, and Boris Lensky who’s crack U-12 ‘A’ squad is so impressive they scare the crap out of me -- they’re more like little soccer playing robotoids than any eleven year old players I’ve seen.

Alan/

By Alan Douglas (206.12.82.43 - 206.12.82.43) on Wednesday, March 17, 1999 - 04:20 pm:

Regs,
Yes talk is cheap. But I’m not just talking, I’m also asking for feedback and suggestions. I’ve explicitly asked people to contribute ideas as to what needs to be done to get the YDP to where it wants to go. Milan gave an answer, while I’m still waiting on Roy. Time will tell what will ultimately happen with the YDP, but until then what more can I do in a discussion room than try to discuss it?!

I know that a lot of people have serious misapprehensions about the program, but my experience has been that the more they find out about it, the better they start to feel about it. Witness Burnsie. Nobody is saying that the 86ers have all the best players or all the best coaches. But you have to start somewhere, and it will improve. With help and training from Ajax it will improve a lot.

Another thing I would like to stress is that the focus should be on the program, not the people behind it. Coaches will come and go, and they can be better trained and improve their skills. People tend to get so caught up in personality issues. They don’t like Bobby, or Carl, or have some bug up their ass over Bart and his coaches, and so they condemn the entire program. That is such petty small-minded thinking that it almost makes me sick! There are people in BC soccer that I’m not too crazy about either, but I don’t go ripping into the programs, clubs, or leagues they’re involved with on account of it. I know that Roy isn’t the most loved man around, but that doesn’t invalidate what SFC is doing. SFC is bigger than Roy, just as the 86ers YDP is bigger than Bob or Bart. If people can’t see that, then I can’t help them.

Alan/

By Roy (206.108.197.47 - 206.108.197.47) on Wednesday, March 17, 1999 - 04:37 pm:

Marty
My mistake, yes Bruce's squad is who I meant.

Alan
Let's see... "we will not do anything that will interfere with the kids Club teams".. then 6 weeks later propose taking teams to Tournaments during the playing season.

I based my comments on Bob and Carl on their saying they were coaching especially Carl who was late for the SYSA/SFC AGM because he was coaching out at UBC with Ajax. Sorry if I misunderstood.

Frank McCann
Started coaching at 18 to help his brother
Lives in Langley
Has a son playing on the U19 Program and a daughter in U15. Coaches both squads, note his kids must make it on their own. He once tried to cut the older son and was overruled by co-coach and manager
His older son played last year and is now in
the Army.
Works entirely on a volunteer basis
Not interested in the Ajax Program
Money is not the motivation, ask that question of all your YDP coaches.

I respect Mike Mosher as a coach and a person, he has shown myself and our players a lot of class.
Boris' team should play the SFC Athletics. We develop players and persons not "robotoids"

The title "Technical Director" is one Ajit came up with. He spent the bulk of his time with the Mini Development Program and Coaching Certification which the Club paid to have his Instructors Certification completed.

By Milan @ Croatia SC (209.53.22.112 - 209.53.22.112) on Wednesday, March 17, 1999 - 07:46 pm:

Roy/Alan -

Regarding "Summer Schools":

In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with the phrase "Summer School" itself but traditionally for soccer "Summer Schools" have been for-profit operations.

So if the YDP doesn't make a profit does it put it on the same level as everyone else? Not really.

From a business point of view, even if the YDP runs in the red on the balance sheet it can be considered a wise business investment for several reasons.

In the short term, it can create a 'buzz' in the 86ers market and having an Ajax logo next to an 86ers logo doesn't hurt.

In the long term, the 86ers can start breeding players and sell them off for some serious cash. Alan mentions that they don't do this currently because they don't want to impede a players chances of making it. But seriously, who could they have sold so far? If a real gem player comes along that they could sell for $500,000 why wouldn't they? I would if I were them.

So the million dollar question becomes, is it wrong for the 86ers to lure kids into what i speculate is their business scheme? One could only answer that question when one determines the value of what the kids get out of it.

ml

By Irish Chocolate Abdur-Burnsallah (Burnsie) (216.66.133.76 - 216.66.133.76) on Thursday, March 18, 1999 - 02:49 pm:

Alan,

They could have sold me for big bucks but they decided to cut me instead. Right, Alan ?

Gentlemen,

Can we get away from this Ajax thing for a while until it is more established ? I think we all know where one another stand on the issue so lets see what happens.

AS-SALAAMU ALAIKUM

By Chocolate Abdul-Regsheem (Admin) (209.53.4.104 - 209.53.4.104) on Thursday, March 18, 1999 - 03:07 pm:

I agree with Burnsallah... Let's let the Ajax thingy rest for a bit and get to the heart of this thread, namely, exactly why Irish Chocolate was cut from the sixers.

~Regsheem.

PS. I vaguely remember someone saying something last nite about Sammy... Who said what ? ;-)

By Gregor Young (Gregor) (209.52.76.76 - 209.52.76.76) on Thursday, March 18, 1999 - 04:50 pm:

Marvellous thighs that lad has. I would elaborate but it seems that a leprechaun shat in my mouth. At least that's how it felt this morning.

Comments about Sammy weren't nearly as informative as some on the Snow White soccer illuninati amongst us and their ties, and thrashings, to and by the underworld.

By Prince Chocolate Sameer (Reedy) (216.66.132.50 - 216.66.132.50) on Thursday, March 18, 1999 - 10:23 pm:

Gregor,

Regarding the underworld I have no idea what your talking about and I don't want to know. I like my knees.

As for you, Sammy and the leprechaun, it sounds like the oddest threesome ever. Well, atleast of those involving an elf.

By Alan Douglas (206.12.82.59 - 206.12.82.59) on Friday, March 19, 1999 - 12:59 pm:

Chris,
You make some good points about politics in Canadian soccer, and I agree in general. People get positions that they shouldn’t be getting, and keep them far longer than they should. I think a big part of the problem in Canada is the relatively small number of fans of domestic soccer which results in a lack of interest or urgency from the media. So you don’t get newspaper columnists or radio personalities howling for a coach or GM to be sacked the way you do in other countries (or in Canada with hockey).

I haven’t followed the VMSL closely enough to know one way or another, but are you sure you don’t have the same sort of politics happening here? Aren’t there clubs where you have the same guys in charge year after year? I would imagine that there would be old boys networks operating at this level, the same as every other. Glass houses.

But you really start to lose me when you use Bob Lenarduzzi’s position with the 86ers as an example of the evils of politics.

Bob Lenarduzzi is the 86ers GM. Apparently you think he shouldn’t be, and that politics was involved in his return to the club. I will remind you that the man who hired him was 86ers/Lions President Glen Ringdal who has no past involvement with soccer whatsoever -- he wasn’t even a fan (though he has since joined the ranks of the converted -- hallelujah). He is a complete outsider and not part of the soccer old boys network. Still want to tell me it was politics?

Let’s take a look at what Lenarduzzi achieved as GM prior to his re-hiring: He was 86ers GM from 1988 to 1993. The 86ers finished in first place in the league in each of those years, winning a total of 11 major trophies. That’s not a bad track record. Still want to tell me it was politics?

You ask where has Bob taken the 86ers? I would answer to the 1998 A-League Organisation of the Year award, ahead of Montreal, Seattle, and MLS candidates Rochester.

But just the fact that the 86ers are still alive and entering their 13th season speaks volumes. That puts them fourth on the all-time list for continual operation in the US and Canada behind Dallas Tornado (14 years), Toronto Blizzard (14), and New York Cosmos (15). Since the 86ers’ first season, over 70 pro outdoor soccer teams in the US and Canada have failed! They lasted an average of around three years. I can list them all if you like.

It bewilders me how people can be so critical of the way the 86ers operate. If they are so incompetent, then how have they managed to survive so long when every other similar team formed prior to 1994 in the US or Canada has folded?

You also take issue with Bob’s playing ability. I don’t want to get into a big debate over this -- it’s not really relevant to the current situation, but as long as we’re here...

I agree, Bob was not a great technical player -- and no, he wasn’t as good as the import players, but then very few Canadians were. His strength was his versatility -- which was important when one needed to juggle the line-up to keep three North American players on the field at all times. Lenarduzzi played every position, including goal, the only player in the league to do so. He would routinely get switched from leftback to rightback to central as needed, was the NASL’s North American Player of the Year as a midfielder in 1978, and scored in the Whitecaps’ very last game in 1984 playing as striker. He played more games in the NASL than any other player in the league’s history, period.

And yes, there were a lot of boo-birds who didn’t like him (or Paul Nelson, or Shaun Lowther, or David Norman, or Gerry Grey, or Buzz Parsons, or any other Canadian player on the team) -- a lot of Whitecap fans were eurosnobs and biased against home-grown players. A lot were also idiots -- I distinctly recall one group telling me how useless this Peter Beardsley kid is and how we should ship him back to England and bring back Kevin Hector. Enough said.

(You see folks, I was almost as big a Whitecaps fan then as I am an 86ers fan now. Diss either team or their players, and you can usually expect an argument from me. And I make no apologies for that.)

Cheers,
Alan/

By uuuuhhhhhhh (209.52.121.84 - 209.52.121.84) on Friday, March 19, 1999 - 03:33 pm:

toot toot, will he never stop....

By Chocolate Abdul-Regsheem (Admin) (209.53.4.104 - 209.53.4.104) on Friday, March 19, 1999 - 04:23 pm:

Alan,

Did you actually read Bigun's post or merely skimmed it?

I fail to see the VMSL connection you made... Chris is far removed from the local scene and he said as much. He lives in Hazelton and hasn't played competitively for many moons. So don't talk about glass houses in response to his post... Note that the easiest way to try and 'win' an arguement is to deflect attention away from one area to another (Oh yeah, well what about you?).

You talk about Ringdal having no past involvement in soccer. This is somehow supposed to support your arguement that BL was not hired as part of an old-boys network? Who was the GM before BL was rehired? What names were floated about before BL was hired? The fact that Ringdal was so far removed from the game only adds credence to a theory that he looked for a GM with instant 'public' recognition.

How the sixers have managed to survive this long has no bearing on this discussion whatsoever... careful here... how many times in the 90's have the sixers made money? How many times have they been on the brink of folding?

Chris said he respected what BL did with his limited abilities. His point was that years later, some have made him out to be a soccer God which is not right.

I respect that you're now employed by the sixers, but don't go out of your way EVER SINGLE TIME to defend them, especially when the arguement was never there in the first place.

~Regs.

By Irish Chocolate Abdur-Burnsallah (Burnsie) (216.66.133.36 - 216.66.133.36) on Friday, March 19, 1999 - 05:00 pm:

Brother Regsheem,

I believe now is the time.

Alan,

I am going to give you one person's view on the propoganda enriched comments that have reached the Forum, AGAIN.

I know we were going to put the 86er/Ajax thing to rest but I must make one comment regarding your write-up on the BC Soccer Web. It was another situation where these kids could do no wrong, yet they came third in the tournament.

You stated several times about how impressed several parents were with the ' short passing and ball control '. This is all fine and dandy but what about the results ? I particularly enjoyed the 11 passes in a row build up before scoring the second goal to make a respectible 4-2. Again, I appreciate your commentary but you really are embellishing(Sp? Gregor?) things too much. It really sounded that these kids should be playing for Ajax, not an Under-10 training program. I am not knocking what you do, but please try to be as neutral as possible.

Regarding Mr. Lenarduzzi's accomplishments. Having played for Coach Lenarduzzi I can give you first hand information on a couple of things.

He was dealt a very good hand when it came to local players playing for the 86ers. You can give me all this crap about him being a great GM to recruit such talent but this is bollocks. Everyone who played for the 86ers wanted to for two reasons. One was the fact that they loved the city of Vancouver and the support it received. The second was the players that were here. It had nothing to do with the coach that was here. Again, I am speaking on behalf of many 86ers past and present when I say that Mr.Lenarduzzi was not the reason for the success of the team. His name has been associated with team, so consequently the teams success goes with his name. He has been living on his laurels for quite some time now . I will give him one thing. He is a good PR man especially when it comes to promoting something that HE is involved with. I don't think it was coincidence that he bailed from the team when he did. He figured the team was going to struggle because of Milan's situation and he didn't want to be any part of it. It wouldn't look good if a team folded with Mr. Lenarduzzi's name still in the mix. If you use the National Team position as the reason for leaving, this is pure bollocks. We all know how well he did as the National team coach , don't we ? I noticed you haven't posted any of his Olympic/World Cup successes. I guess because there are none.

Finally, as a coach Mr. Lenarduzzi ran some interesting training sessions. However, communication was always a concern. One day I will get into the time when David Norman joined the team after the Singapore affair. Actually, this would be very bad PR so I won't. If you're interested in know this Alan, you can e-mail me and Iwill fill you in. Coach Lenarduzzi certainly had personal favorites and I wasn't one of them. Why would I be ? I liked to enjoy myself off the pitch and maybe this is why he cut me.

I really would like to see professional soccer work in Vancouver. I just don't see it happening in the near future. There is too much competition and the players who play in the A-league look at is a summer job where they get to travel to different places. There is not enough money therefore many other players who have good paying jobs will not play for the 86ers. This is why we do not have the best players on the 86ers roster. This is no knock on the players who play because they are obviously very good players but it just confirms the financial woes of the game in general.

P.S. I will tell you about my move to the London Lasers expansion team in 1992 another time if you're interested. Hell, this was the year that I was cut by the 86ers, right ? Cheers, Alan.

AS-SALAAMU ALIKUM

Forgive the typos, I am too lazy to go back and edit.

By Irish Chocolate Abdur-Burnsallah (Burnsie) (216.66.133.36 - 216.66.133.36) on Friday, March 19, 1999 - 05:05 pm:

Alan,

I am sorry I forgot one more thing. You mentioned that Bobby ' could play any position on the field, including goalkeeper. ' You are familiar with the phrase

JACK OF ALL TRADES, MASTER OF NONE. I believe this is very applicable in this situation.

AS-SALAAMU ALAIKUM

By Dutch Chocolate Abdul-Wahaab Big'unallah (Chris) (204.244.19.136 - 204.244.19.136) on Friday, March 19, 1999 - 10:29 pm:

Alan,

Thank you for commenting on my post. I do enjoy the interaction, I simply wonder where the hell you are heading on some of your tangents. My gut (which some say is getting considerable)tells me this horse is dead, but I'm going to lay the whip on for a couple more paces anyway.

1. VSML

I have no clue how this came into your reading of my post. They are not, nor do they claim to represent "pro" soccer in Vancouver, so I have no comment. Also, I am so far removed from the loop of lower mainland soccer that I would be completely adrift.
I can understand, however, that many players in the VSML would have valuable insight into the 86er situation. Many of these are former or current players of this organization. Moreover, as Burnsie and Regs have regularly pointed out, the best lower mainland players do not necessarily appear on the 86er roster. Beyond a PR role in damage control, it seems useless to continually dismiss people who have less than endorsing views of the 86ers as merely bitter players who wanted their day in the sun and consequently feel jilted by Bobby. Let's face it. The finances just are not there. If people have a choice of making decent coin with a full time job (with a future, stability, yadayada)or seasonal employment with an organization whose very existence is in jeopardy, many will choose the stable environment. Indeed, knowing a little about people, I would suggest that many who take the seasonal option do so because: A. They don't know what the hell the want B. It is a quick hit to a little $ while playing a sport (attractive to most athletes) C. It is the best they can do and at least they can say they played "pro" sports. A dubioius boast in this case but some people love to be the big fish, no matter how small the tank is.

I actually appreciate your input on these topics Aln, but you spend so much time defending and so little time discussing. Speaking as one removed from the situation as I am, I find your constant defensiveness a possible endorsement of the naysayers.

2. Bobby THE PLAYER..

I clearly included the word respect in my post. Please don't thrown back this shit about how good he was ( I loved 'Cap games-- got all the momentos). He played everywhere because he was EXPENDABLE, NOT EXCEPTIONAL. He was often jockeyed around to avoid having his part of the field exposed to attack. In short, they quite wisely protected their weakest link. As for the NA player of the year award in '78.... let's face it-- that meant squat. The North Americans were shite. It was remarkably similar to being named outstanding Canadian in the CFL, only the talent gap in the NASL was greater.

86er "Success"

I find it difficult to ascribe all credit for earlier succes with BL. They had a significantly higher talent base in the early days. Similarly, I will not ascribe all blame to BL for recent woes. I am simply pointing out that , in my eyes, the 86ers are , in many ways, a microcasm of all that is wrong with soccer in BC and Canada today. That was really my main line. Where is the game going? Meanwhile you say BL did this, Bl did that, but carefully avoid all the blanks he's fired along the way( SEE DEFENSIVE).

BOBBY HAS DONE A LOT OF THINGS WELL AND RIGHT, AND I RESPECT THAT. But that does not mean he has on iotta of aclue as to how to develop talent in Canada. He runs soccer schools for kids, sells gear and smiles a lot. Stick to that.

4. BEING A FAN

Not only did I play a little Alan, I loved the game and am actually starting to miss it a liitle. I grew up worshipping the Whitecaps and have supported the 86ers, although I no longer consider even remotely a "pro"organization. I don't enjoy the product much anymore and have not gone to a game for quite some time. I enjoyed the game immensely and still get far too involved if I take in a friends game on my occasional journeys south. Moreover, I understand the POLITICS very well-- perhaps none do better. I've seen them in action up close and from afar and it would appear that things really haven't changed much AT ANY LEVEL. I am not bitter. I'm not jilted. I am simply not that good. But I do care about the game (SEE FAN). The BULLSHIT is the source of the frustration and it's being thrown by the same old cowboys.

By the way, I was intersted in how you felt about my views regarding the Ajax involvement.

Chris

By Alan Douglas (206.12.82.33 - 206.12.82.33) on Saturday, March 20, 1999 - 03:40 am:

Regs,
The “glass houses” comment was an error on my part. I thought that everyone in this little Chocolate-Abdul old boys network of yours was a Metro-head. My mistake. My point though was simply that there are old boys networks operating at all levels in soccer, not just pro.

I’m intrigued by your suggestion that it was Carl who urged Ringdal to axe him as 86ers GM and bring back Bobby. Very altruistic of Carl surrendering a big chunk of his paycheck like that. But of course I can see that this is a no win situation for Bobby as far as you’re concerned. He has been branded a member of the old boys network, so it wouldn’t have mattered who hired him or for what reasons -- you and those like you would have always viewed it as political.

I’m curious though, if it was such a huge mistake to bring back Bob, then who do you think they should have hired as GM instead?

How long the 86ers have survived is wholly relevant to this discussion. Yes they’ve lost money, and yes they’ve almost folded. But do you know what? Those 70+ other teams I mentioned are no different. They all lost money and most of them had their share of close shaves before finally going under. But the 86ers managed to better control their losses, and when they did have a close shave they were better able to get money from new or existing owners because they had more to offer than the average team.

Finally, I have been defending Canadian and Vancouver soccer on the internet for five years -- on Usenet, in chat rooms, and by email, and I have rarely let an attack pass unanswered in all that time. I’m not about to start letting up now just ‘cause you find it annoying. In fact, truth be told, so far I have shown remarkably uncharacteristic restraint in this lovely little forum of yours. And I ask again to kindly leave my employment with the 86ers out of it. It is a non-issue -- I am no different now than I was before I joined the club. That I am such an avid fan is one of the main reasons Bob hired me. Are we clear on that?

Alan/

By Alan Douglas (206.12.82.33 - 206.12.82.33) on Saturday, March 20, 1999 - 03:45 am:

Burnsie,
The 86ers YDP focuses on long-term player development, not winning some relatively meaningless game. They are trying to teach a style of play where making a short pass to the open man becomes instinctive. If the kids are sticking to the control style, even when under pressure from older bigger opponents, and showing improvement, then that’s success. The score is secondary. Indeed how well they play when they lose is probably more important than how well they play when they win.

Traded to the London Lasers?! That’s supposed to be better than being cut?!? You poor deluded man you.

By Alan Douglas (206.12.82.33 - 206.12.82.33) on Saturday, March 20, 1999 - 03:55 am:

Chris,

Bobby the Player
Moved him around to protect the weak link?! Played him because he was EXPENDABLE?! And you accuse me of throwing around shit! I think you should have spent more time watching the games instead of collecting mementoes. :-) But if you’re going to take the “North Americans were shite” approach then I’m not going to waste my time arguing with you. See what I said earlier about boo-birds.

86ers success
You, from your remote out-of-touch haven’t-seen-a-game-in-years perspective, are fully entitled to your opinion. However I know in my heart, as someone who lives, eats, breathes, and dreams 86ers, that I have never felt better about this club or where it is going than I do this year. Many people here may write off those words as mere insincere “propaganda”, and all I can say to them in reply is **** YOU ALL TO HELL. KISS MY HAIRY ASS. 86ERS FOREVER!

Ajax
I earlier posted a fairly detailed timeline of how events have unfolded with the proposed Ajax deal to show why it hasn’t yet materialised. It will take time. Do they have doubts? Of course. There’s a lot of things for them still to evaluate. But please keep in mind that there are three components to this equation, not just two: Ajax, the 86ers, and the BCSA. Think about it.

Alan/

By SYSA/SFC (Roy) (206.108.197.48 - 206.108.197.48) on Saturday, March 20, 1999 - 06:56 am:

Alan
Unfortunately for your bandwagon it is missing a wheel. The membership of the BCSA also share the same opinions expressed by Burnsie, Chris and others on the forum re the sixers and BL.

Why do you waste your time on less than 150 players in BC Soccer. You have changed a lot since getting the 86ers title (money woulld not be the main incentive) I admire your determination and loyalty to the 86ers. Without you there wouldn't be the large fan base. You have changed your focus from SOCCER to the sixers.

Why don't you come to Newton this weekend and see a thousand mini players who do not have a clue who BL and CV are. They are there to enjoy the game, oranges and FUN!!!! This includes the U7 Pegasus team coached by the Legendary Frank Martinella.
This is what Soccer is about, do you not agree??

I'll even buy lunch for you!!

Roy

By Alan Douglas (206.12.82.34 - 206.12.82.34) on Saturday, March 20, 1999 - 12:11 pm:

Roy,
I’m sorry, but you’ve got this completely ass-backwards. It has always been about the 86ers. They are the reason I got interested in local amateur soccer in the first place, because current and former 86ers were playing there and future 86ers were coming from there. It is entirely because of the 86ers that I have so broadened my interest and love for the sport. They have helped me realise just what it means to be not just a soccer fan, but a fan of soccer.

And thank you for the generous offer. But Dale and Carl keep on at me to scout more VMSL games, so I’ll be at South Memorial watching Westside-Croatia. And yes lots of little boys and girls playing soccer is great. But soccer is also about the hundreds of millions of fans around the world who live and die with every goal and near miss. It is about the collective agony and jubilation of thousands of souls huddled together in the grandstands cheering in unison for THEIR CITY’S TEAM precisely because it is THEIR CITY’S TEAM. You’ll never find that at NAP.

By Chocolate Abdul-Regsheem (Admin) (209.53.4.104 - 209.53.4.104) on Saturday, March 20, 1999 - 12:35 pm:

Alan,

Your posts are defining you as much as the Chocolate-Abdul moniker defines the Brotherhood... you have not a clue in this area, so why bother? The Brotherhood has nothing to do with soccer per se yet it is now my "old-boys network" related to Metro propaganda?

You seem adamant in trying to portray yourself as someone who has not changed one iota since your affiliation w/ the sixers (I said I respected it and you still objected...fine then). If that's the case, why would your latest press release now mention Niall Thompson as a Canadian international who has returned from Europe to be on trial with the sixers, when elsewhere in the past you described Niall as a player who's career has taken a nose-dive and plays local amatuer soccer? I hope for your sake that if/when Niall is signed, your statements don't come back to bite that hairy ass of yours.

I must say that you are great at name-dropping. I ask everyone to think of all the match reports Alan has written for the BCSoccerWeb... What's the underlying theme?... current sixer did this, ex-sixer did that... very little mention of unaffiliated players of the sixers. So I guess I stand corrected... you haven't changed except now you are being paid. I'm curious as to how your meetings with BL and Carl go... Do you shoot the breeze at all? Do you talk about the state of the game at all?

Your comment towards Bigun was comical. Perhaps YOU should spend more time PLAYING the game (captain of UBC Physics intramural team duly noted) instead of watching ;-)... Why didn't you discuss his points instead of "I'm not going to waste my time arguing with you"? He gave a very good discussion about good players that don't play because the money is shite, yet you apparently brush it off? Why is that? (Burnsie may be too proud to say this here, but I will... He LEFT the sixers for London because they offered double what the sixers were... the fact that London became but a mere footnote in Canadian soccer is immaterial. I guess Giuliano, Sipho, and Paul S. were also cut, eh? Let's not pay the market rate for players and in the end, screw the fans. We'll bring in cheaper players and manage to stay afloat while others try to better the product. Sounds good, doesn't it?).

And one final note... I never suggested Carl stepped aside for Bob. My point was that the names being bandied about were names with instant public recognition. The fact that no other names came up speaks volumes.

~Regs.

PS. Were you drinking last nite?

By Chocolate Abdul-Regsheem (Admin) (209.53.4.104 - 209.53.4.104) on Saturday, March 20, 1999 - 12:44 pm:

HOLD EVERYTHING !!!

Alan, you're now a scout for the sixers? That must have been quite the Physics team you put together ! ;-) (couldn't resist).

~Regs.

By Irish Chocolate Abdur-Burnsallah (Burnsie) (216.66.133.135 - 216.66.133.135) on Saturday, March 20, 1999 - 01:09 pm:

Alan,

You continue to amaze me. Your posts are becoming less meaningful all the time. Even when you have had a few beers ( checking the time of the post, I hope you didn't wake up JUST to post that ) you manage to bore me with your 86er/Bobby loving.

Regarding your YDP comment ( I really thought we had put this one to bed ). I know that the end result is not always an indicator of success ( ie. a kid understanding the process of how to solve a word problem yet he calculates wrong shows that he is learning how to do it ). Abstract reference ? NO. This is the same idea as not being concerned about the final score but worrying how they got to the end result. All I am asking you to do is stop embellishing your write-ups. NOTHING ELSE.

Who Am I ? It was wonderful the way the tiny 8 and 9 year olds of the 86er under 10 team moved the ball. The set up triangles all over the fields and were always within 10 metres of each other. Each player displayed immense confidence on the ball. Despite the 5-2 loss, three parents were thrilled with what little Johnny was doing on the ball. On their second goal they must have strung 16 passes together in a row before executing a text book bicycle kick to perfection. Now this is what soccer is all about.
DO YOU GET MY POINT ? IF NOT THEN I THINK YOU ARE THE POOR DELUDED MAN.

Please answer this for me. Real Madrid are playing the most attractive football in the world right now. However, they have lost 15 games in a row. It doesn't matter though because they continue to play dazzling football. Would the coach be fired ? When it comes down to it. A team's success is based on wins and losses.

You brought up the 'survival' theme again. You have used this more than the Ministry has in the Grade Six Language Arts curriculum. I am sorry but I am going to have to draw an analogy that may offend some people. I hope it doesn't because there in no way am I making light of a serious situation.

If someone has been diagnosed as being terminally ill and he continues to live but his health continues to deteriorate t and inevitably he is going to die, what should the family do if given the choice ? this is the same thing that the 86ers are facing every year. my choice in the latter is to pull the plug and end the poor excuse for a 'pro' franchise. it is irrelevant what i would do in the first scenario.

finally, i was not traded to the london team. they offered me, the player that no one wanted ( albert) a 5 digit salary which was more than most of the 86ers were being paid. even you may have chosen to leave your Chosen One ( Bobby ). it all fell through in the end because of broken promises but that is life. I couldn't be happier with my decision to get away from Coach Lenarduzzi. Did you know that Winnipeg won it the year after I left ? I also played for the Fury for a season under Shaun Lowther. You like him too, don't you. I liked Shaun as a coach. He was straight forward and honest.

I hope you don't take things too personally, Alan, because I sure don't. My life is going too well to let insignificant trivialities change this.

AS-SALAAMU ALAIKUM ( this is for the little Choclate Abdur forum that you alluded to earlier )

P.S. Was it you that wrote Bobby's C-license exam for him ? Did he actually expect to get away with it ? Did he actually pass it on his own merit ? These questions deserve an answer. Please do so when you get a chance.

Cheers, Alan.

By Dutch Chocolate Abdul-Wahaab Big'unallah (Chris) (204.244.19.145 - 204.244.19.145) on Saturday, March 20, 1999 - 03:35 pm:

Alan,

Methinks you doth protest too much.

Apparently you just don't get it. It is like debating with a child. "Ya, well what about you..."

In your eyes, BL and the entire sixer organization is beyond criticism. You never respond or address the criticism; you deflect and get defensive. You take the criticism as a personal attack, rather than a legitimate concern. Few things or people are above criticism, Alan (SEE CLINTON). A wise organization deals with criticism using it to strengthen themeselves. In other words, Alan, they are PROACTIVE not REACTIVE. Everything you do here is reactionary, which (since you are an employee of the '86ers) strikes me as being considerably symptomatic. According to you, not one concern expressed in this forum is legitimate. How realistic is that? You could choose to enter into meaningful dialogue to alleviate some of these concerns, but apparently that (MEANINGFULLNESS) is not possible. Regonition that the europeans were vastly superior in the NASL is not being a "eurosnob". To say so is preposterous, and, quite possibly, the clearest indication that you might just have abso****inglutely no clue of what you are talking about beyond how clean BL's colon is.

Prior to your last brilliant insight regarding my post I was going to mention that, if you are truly this dedicated to soccer, then this is admirable, and we need more of this. However, if you truly do eat, sleep and breathe sixer's and yet can recognize no problems whatsoever or even acknowledge that some of the opinions in this forum may have some validity, then perhaps there is another explanation.

You clearly have no life whatsoever. The time of your post last night supports this latest theory.

You claim that your vehement defense of BL and the sixers is based on passion for the game. That's crap. If you actually cared, you'd look beyond your blinders and consider some other views. If you want people to care about the sixer's, stop beating the drum like Crazy George and use some form of reasonable persuasion.

At your current clip you are simply going to become known as the BJ for BL.

Cheers

Chris

By Alan Douglas (206.12.82.46 - 206.12.82.46) on Sunday, March 21, 1999 - 12:16 pm:

Regs,

Your comments in italics:
I respect that you're now employed by the sixers, but don't go out of your way EVER SINGLE TIME to defend them

In writing that, you related my being employed by the 86ers with my always defending them. What you should have written is, “I respect that you’re a die-hard sixers fan, but...” Let this be the final warning on the subject.

why would your latest press release now mention Niall Thompson as a Canadian international who has returned from Europe to be on trial with the sixers

It says that he is on trial with the 86ers and that he is back in Vancouver after playing in Europe. It does not he say he came back from Europe to go on trial with the 86ers. Please do not twist my words.

in the past you described Niall as a player who's career has taken a nose-dive and plays local amatuer soccer

He does play local amateur soccer. Number 18. Curly hair. Perhaps you’ve seen him. However I can’t believe I would ever have used the phrase “nose-dive” to describe Niall’s career. I’ve been a huge fan of Niall’s since I first saw him play for the Canadian U-20 team, and I have the greatest respect and admiration for him. He was, for quite a while, my second favourite Canadian player behind Nash. I was very disappointed that he didn’t make it at Brentford, and I know full well that he often comes back and plays for Pegasus while planning the next destination in his soccer travels. I’m thrilled to see him at the 86ers training camp.

Ah, so now I’m doctoring my match reports, am I. Well **** you Regs. If you or anybody else can find a single instance in one of my reports where I have failed to mention a goal or a key scoring chance involving an 86ers-unaffiliated player, then by all means call me on it. Until then, button it.

And sorry if I don’t respond to every single point that people make. I didn’t realise you were all in such desperate need of validation from me (OK I know that Roy is, but not the rest of you). If you feel that some point is particularly worth my commenting on, then please mention it again and ask for my feedback. I will reply to anything you care to raise (and I expect the same consideration in return).

Yes, I know full well that the 86ers have a very low payroll and have lost players to other teams willing to pay more. I didn’t think it was ever a point of dispute, and I don’t view it as a serious problem. Controlling costs is one of the ways the 86ers have managed to survive as long as they have, and many of the teams that have outbid them for players have long since gone broke. London Lasers offered Burnsie big bucks and look how long they lasted.

So what exactly are you saying, here Regs? That the 86ers should pay their players a lot more money? And let’s not forget your idea about them paying transfer fees to VMSL teams. Yet at the same time you’re criticising them for losing money in the first place?! And all this from somebody who would never actually pay to see them play. Unbelievable. Let me guess, you never took a course in economics did you? :-)

Regs, most of the higher paying A-League teams are losing between $300,000 to $500,000 a year. The owners put up with it because they don’t know any better and still think that it’s possible to get in the crowds and break even. After several years they usually give up and the team folds. Another team is added to the league to replace it and the cycle continues. It was the same in the NASL except then the money was in the millions and the supply of potential owners with that kind of cash eventually dried up.

The 86ers can’t play that kind of spend-till-you-drop game. They don’t have an owner willing to keep throwing huge sums of cash down the drain (not on soccer anyway). They are trying to find the balance where they spend just enough to have a strong team, but not too much that they go broke. If you want to see a big bucks A-League team go to a place like Hershey, Seattle, Long Island, or Montreal (oops too late, they’re gone). Rochester are the only team that can get away with that kind of spending, because they actually do get the crowds.

Now, I asked you earlier to offer some names of who the 86ers should have hired for GM. You avoided that question, so I’m asking again. If you can’t think of any names, then perhaps outline the qualifications you think would be important.

Alan/

By Alan Douglas (206.12.82.46 - 206.12.82.46) on Sunday, March 21, 1999 - 12:20 pm:

Burnsie,

Embellish v.tr add interest to (a narrative) with fictitious additions [OED]

That’s two people in a row who’ve accused me of dishonest reporting. Memo to self: tick tick tick...

Steve (as I recall you prefer Stephen, so I’ll call you Steve), I appreciate the advice. I really do. But the next time you want to accuse me of embellishing an article, I think your criticism would carry a lot more weight if what I was writing about was an event WHICH YOU ACTUALLY ATTENDED.

I know that I write with a certain, shall we say, enthusiastic style. Overly dramatic perhaps. My 86ers coverage is written from the perspective of an 86ers fan for the intended audience of other 86ers fans. I enjoy writing what I write and I get nothing but glowing compliments from my readers (present company excluded). What I write is honestly what I see, what I hear, and what I feel. I know I can’t please everybody, and heaven knows there’s no pleasing some of the people in this forum, so I’m just going to keep on doing what makes me happy. If that bugs the likes of you and Regs, well that’s gravy.

As to your question, I’m a Barca fan, so the Real Madrid coach can get buried beneath a stack of the club’s loan payment slips for all I care (100 million dollars in debt -- they must be getting financial advise from Regs!)

Let me repeat what I said before... “The 86ers YDP focuses on long-term player development, not winning some relatively meaningless game” The YDP isn’t about short-term winning or losing. They’re not looking for glory or chances to prove how good they are. That is not the measure of success. It is a case of (quite literally) not whether they win or lose, but how they play the game. The YDP will be judged on the quality of the adult players it produces for the 86ers eight years or so from now. Everything until then is just a means to an end.

Burnsie, I take some things more personally than others. But I can see you’re generally making an effort to play nice, so until my patience is worn totally thin by this place (I estimate another week) we should be cool.

By Alan Douglas (206.12.82.46 - 206.12.82.46) on Sunday, March 21, 1999 - 01:08 pm:

Chris, [this is a long one folks -- he wanted discussion, well here it is]

In your eyes, BL and the entire sixer organization is beyond criticism.

Care to put money on that? I can pull up sections from three nationally published print articles I’ve written in the last two years which are critical of Bob, Carl, and the 86ers. If I start going through my match reports and usenet articles, I’m sure I can find even more. My whole raison d’être as soccer writer is to write from a fan’s perspective, and if that means being critical of the team, coach, or a player, then so be it, because I think it’s important that somebody does so (the mainstream media doesn’t).

At the same time, I will admit to being a very positive and upbeat fan, so if you want somebody with a constant “our team sucks” attitude, then look elsewhere. And yes, recently I’ve been particularly positive, because recently things have looked particularly positive. There were times within the past few years when I was prepared to see the 86ers fold and I was ready to move on with my life. But things have taken a huge upturn in the past year and a half and I’m once again excited as hell to be a Sixers fan.

As for this forum, what do you need me knocking the 86ers for, when you guys are all doing such a great job on your own? As I said to Regs, why do you need my validation? You know, maybe if you weren’t all such total freaking anti-86er headcases I could get off the defensive and join in the discussion, but you clowns don’t let up for a second. You people declare open warfare on who I am and expect me to start agreeing with you?

PROACTIVE?! So far I have asked for input on the following:

1) How could the 86ers better support the soccer community
2) What community projects of the other local sports teams could they try to emulate
3) How can they better support the VMSL
4) What should they be doing to create proper 86ers youth teams
5) Who should they have hired to be GM instead of Bobby

I received a response to 1, stupid responses to 2 and 3, and no response to 4 and 5.

And if you want proactive, I redirect your attention to the last line of the previous message I addressed to you. Being privy to 86ers inside information there are some things I am unable to discuss. I have however placed the dots on the page; all you have to do is connect them.

According to you, not one concern expressed in this forum is legitimate.

It is hardly my fault that the denizens of this forum are unable to conceive a single legitimate concern between them. It’s not as if there aren’t legitimate concerns to find. I could list a dozen off the top of my head. But why should I tell you what they are? People here have made it perfectly clear that they aren’t interested in seeing the club improve. They want it to DIE. Why should I give them ammunition to throw back in my face every five minutes -- more “proof” of what a lousy job BL is allegedly doing. Hell, just the fact I’ve conceded there are concerns is going to get thrown back in my face.

You want to discuss? OK, let’s go back to your original article and see what you had to say:

How long are people going to put up with the old boys club that has taken us from Tony to Bob, Carl?

What people? The fans? The media? The general public? How does Tony fit into your line of 86ers succession? He helped Donald Dunlop found the club in 1986, is that what you mean? Are you using Tony as an example of the failure of Canadian soccer? Let’s discuss these points.

We have such little success on the international front because we have stayed with the same outdated ideas at the helm

I told you that I agree in general when it comes to Canadian soccer, but that I don’t think that BL and the 86ers is an example of this. It seems to me that you are trying to tar BL and the 86ers by analogy rather than any direct criticism. Can you point to any specific outdated ideas at the 86ers helm? Let’s discuss them.

Are we producing players that are significantly better than some mentioned in the forum when they were in their prime(Burnsie, Reedy, Gregor, Regs and so on)? Absolutely not.When we watch other countries play we are routinely dazzled by what several players are able to. Our lads look like plumbers by comparison

Utter rubbish. The problem with BL’s WC team is that he stayed with the established players from the Burnsie, Reedy, Gregor, Regs era while ignoring the emerging talent that is the current U-23 squad. Didn’t you see the Macedonia game? Care to discuss that? Or are you as “up to date” on the national team as you are on the 86ers?

We have turned a too slow, no touch player into a soccer deity in Vancouver

You now use Lenarduzzi’s lack of skill as a player to attack him as 86ers GM. Can’t you see how totally ****ed up that is? Bob does surprisingly little kicking of a ball while sitting behind his desk. However what he did pick up in his playing days is experience -- masses of it. I could rattle off all the things that BL did in his career that are no doubt beneficial to his position as GM, but I know that would just bore poor Burnsie, and I trust you can see my point. Or maybe you can’t because you seem think one can’t be a good GM without knowing how to do a bicycle kick!

If you want to slag Lenarduzzi as 86ers GM, then kindly slag him for things he has actually done in his role as 86ers GM. The points raised so far are that he doesn’t spend the club into total oblivion, and he doesn’t visit Roy Mitchell often enough. So what’s your contribution? Let’s discuss it.

The sixers were once a breath of fresh air. with a decent product. Where has Bobby taken them?

As I said, to the 1998 A-League Organisation of the Year award. They also finished tied for second in the A-League’s annual peer review report. Want to hear what the section on Vancouver said? Here it is in its entirety (emphasis mine):

-----

Vancouver 86ers
“professional group, behaved in gentlemanly manner, no complaints - only praise”; “Vancouver continues to be one of the best organizations in the A-League”; “Vancouver is a good guest and good host”; “has type of field we should all aim for”; “Vancouver has one of the best fields in the league”; “we were treated first class”; “first class as it relates to player safety issues”

Franchise Developments: as part of the new ownership structure and the merger agreement, the franchise was granted until October 1 to finalize its commitment to return to the A-League in 1999; USISL hope the 86ers franchise will return as it is recognized as one of the most improved A-League franchises.

-----

Breaking the peer-review survey down by question: out of 29 teams the 86ers ranked 2nd in terms of stadium and facility; 3rd for field and playing surface; tied for 3rd for treatment of visiting teams; tied for 4th for uniforms and professional appearance; tied for 6th for player safety issues; tied for 2nd for professional conduct by players and coaches; tied for 3rd for professionalism by owners and management; and tied for 2nd overall. They were the only club to rank 6th or higher in all categories.

So I ask again, do you have any specific criticisms of what Bob has done with the 86ers?

An interesting similarity is the Toronto Raptors. They hired Isiah Thomas based on past glory. Nothing but turmoil ensued after quick hit success with no vision. Once he was removed, stability and some coherent plan returned.

Can you offer examples of 86ers turmoil? Or does this supposed similarity not run that far? They are both Canadian teams -- I will grant you that.

Chris, I am perfectly willing to discuss particular issues, but you present none. All I’ve seen from you are ad hominem attacks, worthless analogies, and waffling generalities with not a single damned thing to back them up. Give me something, anything, and I will discuss it.

And finally, from your latest post, I turn my attention to this little gem of utter cluelessness:

Regonition that the europeans were vastly superior in the NASL is not being a "eurosnob". To say so is preposterous, and, quite possibly, the clearest indication that you might just have abso****inglutely no clue of what you are talking about

Yes, recognition that the Europeans were vastly superior in the NASL is not being a eurosnob. And of course Europeans were superior to the North Americans. You don’t think I know that? But that’s not what you had said, and that’s not what I had replied to.

You wrote “the North Americans were shite”. That is what I was replying to -- not the recognition of European superiority, but rather the unabashed slagging of the North American player. Go back and read my article again. It quite clearly quotes the “North Americans were shite” phrase back at you.

What I had originally said about people like you was, “a lot of Whitecap fans were eurosnobs and biased against home-grown players.”

Snob n. a person who despises others whose tastes or attainments are considered inferior [OED]

“biased against home-grown players.”

“North American were shite.”

“despise others... considered inferior.”

Do you see the connection? There’s not one word in the above about the superiority of European players. NOT ONE FREAKING WORD! Nor was there anything about it in any of your articles other than a passing reference to “the talent gap”. All you were doing was slagging Bobby and the rest of the North American players.

Does the phrase “abso****inglutely no clue of what you are talking about” ring a bell?

Enjoying the discussion so far, Chris? Good, ‘cause I’m just getting warmed up. Your turn.

Alan/

PS
Were you a prominant player? Would I know you? I’m trying to think of a Chris with a North Shore connection. Chueden? Turner?

By Dutch Chocolate Abdul-Wahaab Big'unallah (Chris) (204.244.19.148 - 204.244.19.148) on Sunday, March 21, 1999 - 03:04 pm:

Alan,

Now that was one of your more thoughtful retorts.

Basically, we are throwing the same shite round and round. You'll note that I began with civility that has vanished in the last couple of posts. I have given credit to the sixers and BL but have expressed concern over direction, which does include the Ajax YD and the CSA. Clearly we are not going to agree on many of these things. You mentioned one thing that is worth dialogue.

You mentioned that some poeple want the 86ers to DIE. While I understand your desire to help maintain some level of pro soccer in Vancouver, is it possible that the time is not now? I think you'll find most people (even on this forum) would like to see the 86ers survive, but they would like to see something that more clearly resembles pro soccer. Perhaps, if that is not possible, it should die until more people appreciate. Of course, with the emergence of the Grizz in Vancouver it will be more difficult to revive a dead soccer team, rather than one merely on life support. The Whitecaps were able to receive significant support ONLY because they had some outstanding european players. Vancouver fans want a good product. Yes they financially committed suicide and here lies the dilemma. The sixers had a better fan base in the early years because the talent and product was acceptable, even though it was considerably watered down from the talent of the Whitecaps. The current sixers are even more watered down, making it very difficult for Vancouver soccer fans to support it as a professional franchise. Yes the field at Swanguard is great and there are few nicer places to watch a match on a late summer evening. But even that is a limitation because of seating capacity. Not only do we lack a team capable of generating a significant fan base, we lack a facility that could support a team capable of generating a significant fan base. A bad circle to be caught in. How do Vancouver fans get around this problem?

The BL slagging went much further than it should have. I don't believe skills are a reflection of GM capability. Let's suffice to say that my dissillusionment with soccer in Canada and BC is POLITICALLY based and I see BL as being a contributing factor in both. We are not going to agree until something happens outside of this forum to change a perspective.

As for providing ammunition by airing your concerns... I think not. Again, I think most people would welcome concerns that come from within-- Not for throwing back, but for recognizing some objectivity, and credibility. That would create dialogue and perhaps opportunity to persude on other fronts. Personally, I would find it more informative (though less entertaining) than the continual slagfest. I think, if you review the posts, you'll find that all members of this forum have, in some capacity, complimented your beloved sixers.

As for me, Alan, if you read the early post you'll note that I clearly stated my abilities ("not that good")and hence, would be considered at the far end of the spectrum from prominant. Even my considerable ego could not allow me to "EMBELLISH" on this simple fact.

Chris

By Irish Chocolate Abdur-Burnsallah (Burnsie) (216.66.133.144 - 216.66.133.144) on Sunday, March 21, 1999 - 07:14 pm:

Alan,

I am sorry but I can't remember what your credentials are. Could you help me ? You said that it was wrong to compare BL's managerial skills to his ability to do a bicycle kick. Are you not doing the same thing when you facetiously ( I think I got it Gregor ) state:

Were you a prominent player? yadayada....

This sounds to me like you're saying Chris' career has a direct impact on him forming very educated OPINIONS regarding the state of professional soccer in our country. I can't believe you would use Chris Cheuden as an example of someone you are proud to know. You are aware of the Singapore scandal ? He is a disgrace to Canadian soccer even though he is probably one of the most skillful players to come from here. Bobby might tell you about David Norman's involvement in the whole thing too if you're interested.

My posts have been releatively calm for a reason. I don't want you to get defensive because this causes your views and opinions to become more shallow and narrow-minded. You probably have some good ideas to share but you constantly scrunch up in your shell and fire arrows without really answering the concerns of the Forum regulars. I don't appreciate your condescending tone that you use high from your 86er perch. It really sounds to me that YOU of all the people in this forum have a massive chip on your shoulder. All we have ever done is state that product that the 86ers are putting out is an amateur one. Can you not see that.

I have also stated that I would like to see the team survive if it was going to benefit the young players of our province. If it does not improve then there really is no point in continuing to beat a dead bird.

Finally, Alan you still haven't answered a couple of my questions regarding the C-license exam. You seem to only respond to questions that suit you, not the rest of the Forum regulars.

AS-SALAAMU ALAIKUM

Cheers, Alan.

By Chocolate Abdul-Regsheem (Admin) (209.53.4.104 - 209.53.4.104) on Sunday, March 21, 1999 - 08:45 pm:

Alan,

I'm going to try and explain how I SEE THINGS HERE (caps to emphasize it is in my opinion). I'll respond to your recent posts later...

The forum regulars here have an unique vantage point that not alot of others have. Some have first hand experience with the sixers, others have many connections with ex-sixers, and some have general first hand knowledge of the POLITICS that have taken place within the soccer community in BC in the past.

This is where we come from. I can understand your defensiveness in here with all that has taken place thus far. At times, it is hard for me to give you the respect that you, at times, deserve, knowing that basically, your knowledge of the game is from a FANS perspective. This is not to undermine your ability to report on matches or give your opinions, but it does put you behind the eight ball, so to speak. For example, my dad is a FAN of the game, but would I ask his opinion on any soccer specifics? HELL NO ! Some things cannot be totally comprehended without actually partaking in the activity (in this case, at a high level).

Perhaps we all have blinders on and don't really want to hear what you're saying, but you have not helped matters at all. You've alluded to us as Metro-heads, Chocolate-abdul old-boys network, anti-86er headcases, clowns, and have alluded to myself several other things. That's fine. If you're going to play the game though, don't be handing out 'final warnings' (or else what? suspension? black-balled from ever playing for the sixers? ;-) )...

I've had my battles with virtually everyone on this forum, and I'm not talking about just within here. That includes Robert, STEPHEN, Chris-to-pher ;-), Mr. Peg, the list goes on. I've even started some new battles within the forum, namely, with Gregor (sorry Gregor, I'm not dragging you into this, no need to respond). Hell, 2 years ago, I quit Peg because I was fed up (albeit, it only lasted a month which amounted to one game). My point is that we've all managed to get past that and have some good discussions within and outside of the forum since. I hope that one day I can include yourself in this list...

BUT UNTIL THEN...

~Regs.

By Dutch Chocolate Abdul-Wahaab Big'unallah (Chris) (204.244.19.178 - 204.244.19.178) on Sunday, March 21, 1999 - 10:26 pm:

Burnsie, Regs,

Thanks for hopping into the fray, but rest assured there is no need. I have taken no offence. After all, I'm sure my limited "career" (can I actually call it that?) cannot compare with an outstanding UBC physics squad.

All I know is that KELOWNA WAS DAMN FUN.

Anymore feedback on a visit to Mecca? Deadline approaching...

Chris

By Milan @ Croatia SC (209.53.22.112 - 209.53.22.112) on Sunday, March 21, 1999 - 10:29 pm:

Oh oh -

Marty posted the address of this Forum on the VMSL part of the website. Everybody quick! Write down what you have to say before it gets lost in the threads!

I feel sorry for Alan the most; how's he going to respond to everybody? I'm impressed with how he's kept up so far!

Regs might have to start updating the rest of this site.

ml

By SYSA/SFC (Roy) (206.108.197.3 - 206.108.197.3) on Sunday, March 21, 1999 - 11:23 pm:

Alan
I am impressed!!
Put your head on the block for ALL to chop, good on you.
Do I need your validation, quite frankly...
not very ****ing likely.
My validation comes from the 5 year old who was clutching his first trophy today and what a smile!
When was the last time you wrote about the real soccer in this province and not about the 86ers?

RM

By Chocolate Abdul-Regsheem (Admin) (209.53.4.104 - 209.53.4.104) on Sunday, March 21, 1999 - 11:35 pm:

Milan,

I would update the site more but I don't have the time although getting knocked out of the Imperial cup has freed up some sundays ;-) I'd put up alot more pics but my scanner is currently out of whack ;-(

Hopefully, the forum will keep everyone amused until I get some time ;-)...

I think this thread is getting a little long so I'm going to close it and start a continuation thread. Continue on there.

~Regsheem.

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