By Alan Douglas (206.12.82.80 - 206.12.82.80) on Monday, March 22, 1999 - 01:34 pm:


Much better Regs. Thanks.

Burnsie,

You misread my intent. I wasn’t trying to be facetious or imply anything. I was just wondering who Chris was. If I’m going to get in a debate with someone, then I like to know who I’m dealing with. That's all. Chris, I'm glad to see you didn't take offence. If I thought people needed to have played at a high level to have an intelligent opinion on soccer then I wouldn't even be here.

The pro/amateur issue -- that’s semantics. Under some definitions the 86ers are professional, under some they are amateur. If one is to judge the 86ers against the Canucks and Grizzlies then, no they are not professional. If one is to compare them with Manchester United and Inter Milan, then no they are not professional. But I see that as a very narrow viewpoint, and those as unfair comparisons. Canada is a third rate soccer nation and the 86ers have to be judged within that context, not against the elite leagues of the world. As far as Canadian soccer goes, and is likely to go for the foreseeable future, the 86ers are about as professional as is reasonably possible. And I am sure that the A-League compares very favourably with all manner of lesser leagues around the globe which also call themselves professional.

You will no doubt disagree, but we could run around this little circle all week and not get anywhere. Do you eat it with a fork or a spoon? PotAto potahto. But try telling the NCAA or NAIA that the 86ers are amateur and see how far you get. The bottom line as far as I’m concerned is that the club and the league are registered as professional with the soccer governing bodies. I usually also make the distinction (when one needs to be made) that they are professional but not “fully professional”, or professional, but “part-timers”.

But if you insist on calling the 86ers amateur, then I’m going to have insist that an even lower term be created to describe what we would otherwise call amateur, because speaking as a fan and a spectator, I see a world of difference between the 86ers and local amateur soccer, and I think the general public does too. You don't see it that way because you're too close to the situation. As Regs has pointed out, your experiences gives you a great perspective on many issues, but as you gain so do you lose. I think that many of the people here have trouble seeing the big picture the same way that the general public sees it. You're just too close.

As for Bob’s C-License exam -- a black mark indeed, and I lost some respect for the man that day. At the same time, I have to remember my own phrase “glass houses”, because I once cheated on an exam too (a friend found the original of a mid-term in the copier room, xeroxed it, and gave it to a bunch of us during a last minute cram session -- it hardly helped)

I know you’ll think me sappy, but I’m going to invoke the old standby, “to err is human, to forgive divine” on this one. Don’t laugh too hard, Burnsie, because I’ve recently decided to use the same line to forgive you. See, there have been exactly two moments in my life where I have felt ashamed to be a Vancouver soccer fan. The first was at a game in Calgary when a drunken Whitecap fan seated near me winged an empty whisky bottle at a young cheerleader celebrating a Boomers goal, missing her head by inches. The second moment was on account of something you did in a game at UBC. But that’s water under the bridge, and I don’t want to get into it here. You can email me if you’re curious.

Alan/



By Alan Douglas (206.12.82.74 - 206.12.82.74) on Monday, March 22, 1999 - 03:13 pm:


Chris,
I appreciate the return to civility. Hats off to you for that. You also raise some good points. Here are my views:

I’ve done some analysis on the mathematical trends involved in the folding of pro soccer team in North America (I use North America, or simply NA, as a matter of convenience to refer to the US and Canada but not Mexico). What I’ve found is you get roughly the same failure rates and patterns emerging regardless of which leagues you look at. The same things happen in the low budget D3-Pro League as in the big budget NASL.

This suggests to me that there is generally a fundamental gap between ticket revenue and player budget regardless of the size of budget, so that no matter how much or how little one spends on players, the fan interest generated by those players generally won’t be enough to pay for them. Big budget teams lose money and fold. Little budget teams lose money and fold. And they do so with the same alarmingly high frequency. Could the 86ers pay out more money to get better players? Yes. Would they get more fans? Yes. Would they get enough fans to justify the more expensive players? No. Spending money to make money doesn’t work in NA soccer. The more you spend, the more you lose.

There are currently two different approaches in the US to try and make a sustainable league. One is MLS, which uses large enough budgets to appear reasonably big time (though still a fraction of what the NASL spent), while also using a single-entity ownership structure.

Single-entity is a nice idea in some ways as it helps maintain parity while allowing the money from the more successful franchises to help the struggling ones through their lean years. But it will run into problems if struggling franchises keep on struggling, and have to be moved to better markets. Currently MLS is able to attract new “owners” because of speculation that franchise value will increase dramatically. That will all change if franchises start failing in numbers. The unusual ownership structure, where “owners” don’t really own the teams they pay for, will also make it harder to find new capital. So far I think MLS has lost $100 million. I don’t expect it will survive beyond 2006.

The other league that we have is the grass roots approach of the USL, of which the A-League is the highest level. The USL started 11 years ago as a five team amateur indoor league in Texas, and now has around 150 teams in a multi-level hierarchy. Teams go broke in the USL all the time, but it’s easy to find new owners because it’s relatively low budget. You can get started with a PDSL (amateur) franchise for only $20,000 US, and if you do well there you can get promoted to the D3-Pro and then the A-League. It’s a pretty healthy set-up considering how frequently franchises tend to bomb out. Power in numbers. And troubled teams can also be relegated to a lower level to put their house in order, rather than folding up the tent completely.

I think the USL is the more sustainable of the two systems. The key to keeping a league alive is finding new owners, because you can’t stop teams from folding. The lower the budgets, then the more people around who can afford to own a team. And as much as the USL hierarchy is supposed to be used for developing better players, it also does a fair job of developing better franchises and owners. Survival of the fittest, and the cream rises to the top.

I think the USL is the way to go. I know people keep talking about starting a new Canadian league, but I can’t see it working. The approach is too simplistic, and we don’t have enough major markets to keep it going for long.

As for the idea of giving up on pro soccer until the time is right... I don’t see what good that would serve. The chances are very slim that we’ll see anything like the Vancouver Whitecaps again in our lifetime. Who knows if or when the time will ever be right? And throwing in the towel could end up being a disaster.

You see, we need the USA for pro soccer to work in Canada -- we can’t go it alone any more than we could in baseball or basketball. Right now we have our foot in the door of the USL (while we’re facing a brick with wall MLS). Lose the 86ers and Toronto, and the USL may decide not to bother with Canada any more, and I can’t say I’d blame them! Vancouver has had repeated ownership problems, Montreal has been a huge pain in the ass, while Toronto has no fans. I’ve already heard several rumblings about making the USL an American-only league. Some fairly recent statements from the commissioner show a leaning in that direction as well. If we lose our foot in the door now, then we could be completely left out in the cold for who knows how long, with no professional soccer at all except maybe a short-lived CSL reprise coming along every 20 years or so to break up the monotony.

The stadium situation in Vancouver is another problem. Just another reason to think that the 86ers are the highest level of soccer we’re likely to see for a very long time.

And if the 86ers fold, then I’m sure that whatever might eventually replace them would be no better, just as the Toronto Lynx are doing no better than the Toronto Blizzard or Rockets. This idea that everything will be wonderful if we could only start fresh is totally misguided as far as I’m concerned. Talk to Toronto fans (if you can find any) and see how they’ve liked starting fresh every two years. Or talk to Atlanta fans where it’s become an annual affair. You have to take what you’ve got and go with it, because every time you start over you dig the whole a little deeper and it’s that much harder to get anywhere.

No, the 86ers don’t have the product in the way that the Grizzlies have or the Whitecaps had. But I refuse to believe that product is all that there is to sport. Go anywhere in the world and you will find teams in the lower divisions or semi-pro leagues that have far less product to offer than the 86ers, but they still have fans who support them. Millions of soccer fans around the world invest their time, emotion, and money with teams whose product is no better than the A-League. Being a soccer fan isn’t about cheering for the team with the best players. It’s about being part of a community and supporting your community’s team. If someone is only interested in *product*, then I don’t think they’re much of a fan at all.

Community is a key issue for me. I was a Whitecaps fan and a Canucks fan. But looking back at those teams, those players, I know that I didn’t feel the same way about them as I do now about the 86ers. Those teams were really just a bunch of hired mercenaries, and most of those players had no real connection with Vancouver and had to be paid huge sums of money or they’d have been on the next flight out of here. The money athletes demand today is even more ridiculous, and it just taints the whole thing for me. The 86ers on the other hand are a genuinely Vancouver team.

I don’t think I could ever go back to being a Canucks fan -- it just seems so shallow to cheer for players for whom Vancouver is little more than a stopping point and a paycheck. And honestly, are the Canucks making any special effort to develop or utilise Vancouver-area hockey players? No.

Well that’s my little trip to the soapbox for the day. Hopefully everybody out there is still busy reloading :-)

Alan/



By Milan @ Croatia SC (209.53.5.53 - 209.53.5.53) on Monday, March 22, 1999 - 05:09 pm:


Alan -

You've made some very good points. Those being; a team doesn't need the best players to deserve support and community is the key issue. However, I don't think soccer the future of soccer in Vancouver is doomed - unfortunately I just don't think it will be with the 86ers either.

The bottom line is that fan support is needed. Fan support is driven by loyalty, tradition, pride, love and hate. Unfortunately, soccer in Canada is not about those things. In Canada kids go to soccer practice to talk about the latest wrestling move and adults play soccer to burn off the beer. There are no hero's for the kids to look up to and by the time they're adults they can hardly develop a loyalty to a club because most youth clubs don't have senior teams.

Without European style clubs there is nothing for kids and adults to by loyal to, no tradition to uphold, nothing to be proud of, nothing to love and no other clubs to hate.

So why don't they exist? Because soccer is administered poorly in Canada. Soccer associations, like the BCSA, don't even recognize clubs as an entity in their Constitution. They choose to accomodate district associations because they have power and will in return accomodate the BCSA special interest groups.

However, optimistically I believe that momentum is growing towards the club system. My fear is that I'm only getting that impression because that's what I'm involved in. If the system does change to accomodate clubs, I believe the climate here in BC will eventually be able to support a Pacific Coast style league that includes clubs that are within a days worth of car travel. People will eventually develop loyalties and pride in clubs they grew up with and will spend money to support them.

Hopefully the 86ers will still be around by then, but I can't see it.

ml



By Irish Chocolate Abdur-Burnsallah (Burnsie) (216.66.135.166 - 216.66.135.166) on Monday, March 22, 1999 - 10:12 pm:


Alan,

After e-mailing you to fill me in on the disgraceful act that you witnessed Irish Chocolate doing , I withdraw my request. I would prefer it if you would post it in the Forum IF it took place on the soccer field. I am guessing you have the wrong guy/information because I only disgraced myself a couple of times for UBC, but it was off the pitch. If it is regarding one of few times I overindulged in cider consumption, a lot of Forum regulars already know, so it would only bore them. Please post it in the Forum when you get a chance because I have nothing to hide.

Alan, you have basically said that the 86ers are NOT a professional team by saying it is wrong to compare them to other professional organizations ( Grizzlies/ Canucks) because their not in the same situation. As Dutch Chocolate and many other Forum regulars have stated, the market, interest, and playing facilities are not available to build a true ' professional' franchise. You were right when you said we could go on all week regarding this issue so I will stop.

I am always man enough to admit when I make a mistake. I apologize for accusing you of being facetious ( Sorry Regs, I had to use it again ).

I never cheated in University. We just shared answers in Phys Ed.

As for you forgiving me. I couldn't give a darn if you did or didn't especially when I don't know what the hell you are talking about. If it was really bad, I am sure I would have remembered such an incident. If it was my funny incident that took place in Edmonton after my first game with the 86ers, old news for Forum regulars. You will be interested to know that FOUR 86ers were involved in that situation but I wouldn't mention the two that were not in the Vancouver Sun. I had to do something to get into the newspaper as at the time, I didn't know I was going to be a future cut.

AS-SALAAMU ALAIKUM

PRAISE WHITE CHOCOLATE #55



By Gregor Young (Gregor) (207.194.147.86 - 207.194.147.86) on Monday, March 22, 1999 - 11:04 pm:


Most common questions Phys Ed students shared answers to at UBC.

Q. In a double dribble, how many times does a player dribble?

Q. The ball in softball ...hard or soft?

Q. What distance must runners complete in the 100m sprint?

Q. How the hell did Frank Smith get tenure?

Q. How far would Alan's eyes pop out if he heard some of the real horror stories about past and present Sixers.

Burnsie, I can't think either what you might have done. I'm assuming it was while you were playing for the 86ers and not UBC. Most of your UBC travesties occurred within a foot of something 80 proof at an altitude of 10 000 feet or better.



By KAAOS (24.113.31.226 - 24.113.31.226) on Tuesday, March 23, 1999 - 09:26 am:


Lads and Choclotiers
Saw on an earlier bit What could the 86'sdo to help the soccer in the province...How about a game As we are about to determine the league champion; as we do around this time every year,it also coincides with the 86's pre- season scedule i see they have games already lined up What about a game between the champions and the 86's at Swangard for say $5 the monies to be held in trust and given to the Provincial Champs to help with costs.Who knows? maybe a player could get picked up,a lot of questions may be answered re the differece in quality of play and surely those 86'r detractors would attend to not only see the game but help the vmmsl teams offset ther costs
Whaddya think



By Chocolate Abdul-Regsheem (Admin) (209.53.4.104 - 209.53.4.104) on Tuesday, March 23, 1999 - 01:40 pm:


Alan,

As I said... UNTIL THEN...

Here is your past stament regarding Niall (taken from rec.sport.soccer).

PASSDBALL@webtv.net (richard brown) wrote:

>Lech my conclusion is that the US had many >chances to score, but just missed. Since you are >from Canada more or less you must have saw the
>game.

Unfortuntely, TSN chose not to broadcast the game in Canada. Rogers cable in Toronto will be showing the game on a one week tape delay in
Ontario, and hopefully (!) Rogers cable in other areas will get and show the tape.

>How many chances did Canada have to score, >besides the goal they scored.

I have not seen the game, however the reports I've read indicate that Canada had several other great chances, including a shot cleared off
the line afer the keeper had been rounded, and a deflected header that the keeper had to scramble to save. Reports are that Canada dominated all facets of the match, and that the Macedonian keeper had a strong game while Canada's Onstad had little to do (which is just as
well, as it sounds like he was struggling at times). I believe the few chances Macedonia had were mostly the result of mistakes by the
young Canadian squad.

>Incidently how did that goal come about.

The keeper saved well off a header from Thompson in the opening minutes. The same player got a second chance from the ensuing corner
and this time made no mistake.

>Plus did Macedonia have their A team playing against Canada?

Not being familiar with Macedonian players, I couldn't say. The Macedonian starting line-up was:

Jovcev - the backup keeper against USA
Markovski - started against USA
Nikolovski - started against USA
Gjuzelov - came on as a sub against USA
Zaharievski - came on as a sub against USA
Stojkovski - started against USA
Micevski - started against USA
Hristov - started against USA
Trenevski - started against USA
Sakiri - started against USA
Sainovski - came on as a sub against USA

So pretty much the same team that the USA faced, though no doubt a little tired and now without USA starters Milosevic, Veselinovski, Memedi (though he came on in the 1st half against Canada), and the keeper Milosevski.

However any and all excuses about Macedonia or the USA missing key players from these games are rendered utterly moot by the fact that Canada fielded a completely new and experimental team. The Canadian starters for the game were:

Pat Onstad - GK; 30 yrs; 13 caps; Canada's #3 keeper; veteran of CSL, currently plays in A-League with Rochester though spent several years
"unattached"

Santos Menezes - DF/MF; 23 yrs; 0 caps; Canadian-born recently found playing in Brazil with America FC of Rio de Janeiro.

Jason DeVos - DF; 24 yrs; 3 caps; former U-23, former A-League veteran now in England with Darlington.

Richard Hastings - DF; 20 yrs; 0 caps; current U-23; plays in Scotland with Caledonia

Carl Fletcher - DF; 26 yrs; 8 caps; CSL/A-League veteran; 2nd string player on national team, unpopular with fans; currently with Montreal.

Brad Parker - DF/MF; 18 yrs; 0 caps; current U-23; from Feyenoord youth team in Netherlands

Jeff Clarke - DF/MF; 20 yrs; 1 cap; current U-23; 1 year in A-League; now with St Patricks reserve team in Ireland.

Rob Arristedemo - MF; 21 yrs; 1 cap; current U-23; plays for University of Tulsa (NCAA)

Jason Bent - MF; 20 yrs; 3 caps; current U-23; did very well in final WCQ games; 1 year in A-League, 1/2 year in German 2nd division, currently unattached.

Paul Stalteri - FW; 20 yrs; 1 cap; current U-23; 1 year in A-League, now in Germany with Werder Bremen reserves.

Niall Thompson - FW; 24 yrs; 7 caps; former U-23; a once promissing player whose career took a nose-dive after the US State Dept denied him a work visa to rejoin the Seattle Sounders. Six months ago he was playing amateur soccer in Vancouver, but then signed with Brentford in England and was surprisingly recalled to the national team for this game. Scored the only goal.

That's an average of 22 years old and just 3 caps. Futhermore, the 4 players Canada brought in as subs had a total of only 1 cap between
them.

Now compare this with the USA squad against Macedonia:

Keller, Burns, Dooley, Pope, Agoos, Maisonneuve, Deering, Ramos (Radosavljevic, 60), Moore, Jones, McBride (Wegerle, 62)

So I think you can understand why Canadians are feeling pretty darned pleased with this result. And since it appears unlikely that the CSA will be able to schedule any further friendlies for the National team this year (not everyone is lucky enough to get half-billion dollars from Nike ya know) this means that Canada should finish 1998 with a perfect 100% record, despite having no coach, very little money, and a completely rebuilt team.

Tune in next time folks as Paul "Skywalker" Stalteri and the young rag-tag Canadian squad tries against all odds to overcome "Darth"
Lalas and the monstrous Evil Empire to the south :-)

Cheers,
Alan Douglas
Soccer Guy/

(scheduled soccer games still to watch this summer: 127)



By Chocolate Abdul-Regsheem (Admin) (209.53.4.104 - 209.53.4.104) on Tuesday, March 23, 1999 - 01:44 pm:


Alan,

I also found this posting a little ironic ;-)...

Stev Lopez <baayszhore@intrepid.net> wrote:

>[an elaborate version of "I know *you* are but >what am *I*?" snipped]
>
>You'll be happy to know that after reading your >post, sixteen professors of logic and/or debate >killed themselves in sheer frustration.

Not happy enough since you weren't one of them :-)

But Steve, if you found something in my post which contained flawed logic then the *correct* thing for you to do would have been to repeat
it and then clearly demonstrate why it was flawed. Snipping it and then merely suggesting it was flawed isn't going to impress or fool
anybody. That's just stupid, childish, chickenshit tactics that everybody can see right through.

Now the idea behind my post, since you seemed to have such trouble understanding it ("I know you are but what am I"?!), is that Usenet articles are archived and indexed at Dejanews. Everything you say here is recorded for posterity and can be easily accessed by anyone on the net. Friends, family, and co-workers can all come online and find out how you've conducted yourself on Usenet over the years. And barring some major disaster, they will be able to find this thread decades from now.

So far they will see that you have:

1) challenged me to post my funny Top 10 list after I had already posted it
2) said it wasn't funny while everyone else was saying it was
3) said it contained 10 USA insults when there were clearly only 4
4) snipped the thread and accused me of being a masturbator when you couldn't think of anything better to say (what wit, what brilliance)
5) suggested I'd used flawed logic after you again snipped the thread

With every post you make yourself look more and more the idiot. And it's all there for everyone to see, whenever they want, forever.

Now I figure you're probably just some snot-nosed 12-year-old who thinks this is all just a big laugh. But you are defining your net.personality with every one of your posts. 30 years from now,
you're going to look back at what you've written here and think "my god, what a smegmatic little turd I was". And so will everyone else. And they'll be spot on.

So what I'm saying is that maybe you should be a little more selective about what you write here, as well as who you decide to get into flame
wars with. Just some friendly advice.

>-- Steve Lopez
>
>http://www.chessbaseusa.com/NY1924/ny1924.htm
>http://www.chessbaseusa.com/T-NOTES/etn.htm
>http://www.smartchess.com/SmartChessOnline/defaul>t.htm

You know Steve, it's been my experience that chess players tend to be intelligent with good analytical and debating skills. So what the
hell went wrong in your case?

Cheers,
Alan Douglas
Soccer Guy/

Oh yeah, I almost forgot (I wanna make sure they find this message too)...

Steve Lopez baayszhore@intrepid.net
Steve Lopez baayszhore@intrepid.net
Steve Lopez baayszhore@intrepid.net
Steve Lopez baayszhore@intrepid.net
Steve Lopez baayszhore@intrepid.net
Steve Lopez baayszhore@intrepid.net
Steve Lopez baayszhore@intrepid.net
Steve Lopez baayszhore@intrepid.net
Steve Lopez baayszhore@intrepid.net
Steve Lopez baayszhore@intrepid.net
Steve Lopez baayszhore@intrepid.net
Steve Lopez baayszhore@intrepid.net
Steve Lopez baayszhore@intrepid.net
Steve Lopez baayszhore@intrepid.net
Steve Lopez baayszhore@intrepid.net



By The Wolf (207.34.170.129 - 207.34.170.129) on Tuesday, March 23, 1999 - 02:38 pm:


Howling Wolf News

By now everyone knows that Ajax has brought it's world renowned, progressive and very successful soccer academy to Vancouver, and has recruited Carl "Stale" Valentine to instuct. But few of you know that other well known local soccer personalities have also made arrangements with other international organizations.

Brazilian star Rivaldo is pleased with Colin "Ice Box" Miller teaching his "soccer feinting and body swerve" courses.
Howling Wolf News reports that Buckingham Palace officials showed up only three weeks into the course, to observe the incredible lack of flexibility, agility and lateral movement in the new students. The officials feel these players would make outstanding Royal Guards for the Queen's palace.

Weight Watchers recently fired Sarah Ferguson as their spokesman and hired Alan "Donuts@ 3 a.m." Douglas
H.W.N. reports that the American Heart Association is blaming the 86ers for creating this unstoppable monster and has called for a boycott of all A League games

The Vatican is soon sending the Pope to get some English grammar lessons from Derek "Mr. Facking" Possee.
H.W.N. reports that atheists and rap singings worldwide are rejoicing.

Spurs star Davide Ginola was recently in Vancouver to get some crossing pointers from Carl " Why Use Both Feet When One Will Do" Valentine.
H.W.N. reports that Ginola's value on the transfer market has since fallen to 22 quid and a box of tea bags.

Members of The Crips and The Bloods are coming up from L.A. to attend Carl "I Was Going To Pay For It" Valentine's course on convenience store theft.
H.W.N. reports that Save On Foods has notified L.A.P.D. that their arrest rate should eventually increase by 50%.

Man U. manager Alex Ferguso n is coming to Vancouver in the offseason to get some advice on club management from Bob "The Local Soccer God" Lenarduzzi.
H.W.N. reports that english bookies have already made Man U. early favourites to get relegated next season.

Until next time,
The Wolf



By Irish Chocolate Abdur-Burnsallah (Burnsie) (216.66.136.171 - 216.66.136.171) on Tuesday, March 23, 1999 - 07:14 pm:


Gregor,

The incident in question was during an intramural coed soccer game when I was playing for Education. We were playing the strong Physics squad and apparently I punched one of them in the back of the head. Obviously, I did because the coed soccer tournament was like the World Cup to me. It probably had nothing to do with the fact that we were hammering them and they started running the girls on our team. They didn't have a clue what they were doing so why not say that ' that ass hole Steve Burns punched one of our players in the back of the head ' would be interesting banter. Anyway, this was the brutal incident that I was involved in, something that I know didn't happen or maybe I was too drunk that game to remember. I guess we'll never know.........

Top 5 questions most commonly debated in Arts department.

1) Do I really exist ?
2) Is the sky really blue or is it a figment of our imagination ?
3) If I am here, is it also possible for me to be there ?
4) Is the Jack of Spades really the Jack of Spades ?
5) Is Bertand Russell the greatest philosopher of all time ? If so, was his name really Bertand Russell ?

I hope you don't change your opinion of me as a player since learning of my fiasco in the UBC coed league. I guess I can't drop any lower than where I am right now anyway.

Sorry about the green beer. I am still pissing green once a day.

AS-SALAAMU ALAIKUM



By Gregor Young (Gregor) (207.194.147.230 - 207.194.147.230) on Tuesday, March 23, 1999 - 07:42 pm:


Burnsie,

As an Arts grad, I'm pleased to be able to help you out with answers to your questions....

1) Do I really exist ?
Yes, but if you're like me, not before 7am.

2) Is the sky really blue or is it a figment of our imagination ?
If you play for Westside the sky is really blue all the time. If you are playing Westside the sky is grey and a little storm cloud follows you around like you're Charlie Brown.

3) If I am here, is it also possible for me to be there ?
No, I just appear to make that possible if you are trying to mark me on a corner kick.

4) Is the Jack of Spades really the Jack of Spades ?
Yes, particularly when it is sitting on a deuce in blackjack.

5) Is Bertand Russell the greatest philosopher of all time ? If so, was his name really Bertand Russell ?
No, Chris Cheuden is based on his epic tract "Singapore: Land of Opportunity or How a Morally Bankrupt Wide Midfielder With a Bit of Pace Can Still Live With Himself Despite Serious Character Flaws; Foreward by Paul 'Strategic Finking for Hopeful CSA Coaches' James."



By Irish Chocolate Abdur-Burnsallah (Burnsie) (216.66.135.174 - 216.66.135.174) on Tuesday, March 23, 1999 - 10:16 pm:


Gregor,

Wonderful responses. I knew you could somehow come up with an incredibly witty answer to each question. I am worried about one thing though. If Westside actually lose a game this year, you will have a lot of people to answer to. I will not be one as I hope you do fulfill my prophecy. I love the Cheuden tract.

Give me a day or so and I might be able to give you some humour with the Phed questions. It may take me this long. If nothing is posted then you can assume, I ran low on patience and wit. I will do my best though.

Have you forgiven me for the alleged Intramural incident ?

I really don't know why Auj is mad at you. I don't even know which one it is. I will do some investigating on Thursday to see if Irish Chocolate can clear the murky waters between Indo and Westside.

AS-SALAAMU ALAIKUM



By Gregor Young (Gregor) (209.52.76.26 - 209.52.76.26) on Tuesday, March 23, 1999 - 10:56 pm:


Alan, please, tell us that was a piss take. That you're really joking about how some shove in an Intramurals game caused you to be ashamed of the 86ers because it that's true and you are going to be spending a lot of time working with the team this year then you are in for some shattering of illusions, a pissing on your parade, and a house of cards that is about to come tumbling down.


Most of the guys on the team that I played with or came to know otherwise are great guys but it's very laddish and if you're looking for pillars of the community you're going to slip on a lot of spilled beer in the pursuit.

So Burnsie I think I can find it in my heart to forgive you. As for Auj, I'm the one who should be gutted after his 'donut' crack last game. No matter. Regardless of who wins the Indo v Trollers semi, it's nice to know that if we beat Crim & Co. there'll be someone in the final who doesn't like me (besides teammates...).



By Gregor Young (Gregor) (209.52.76.48 - 209.52.76.48) on Tuesday, March 23, 1999 - 11:09 pm:


Alan,

Having re-read your post (hoping to find a hint of sarcasm) I realize now you're saying you were ashamed to be a Vancouver soccer fan. Still, I think you'll find that if incidents like the Intramurals one make you cringe, a season around the 86ers office will have you convinced you're the Oasis road manager.



By Irish Chocolate Abdur-Burnsallah (Burnsie) (216.66.132.91 - 216.66.132.91) on Tuesday, March 23, 1999 - 11:15 pm:


Gregor,

I am back with a couple of quick answers to your questions.

Q1 - This has always a perplexing question. We never viewed this as how many times did a player dribble. No, we took it to the next level of Bloom's Taxonomy, a level that no one else understood. We thought it meant that two players would be simulataneously dribbling the ball down the court. This was a trick question in one of our final exams. I got it wrong.

Q2 - Softball/Hardball - Whether the ball was soft or hard , it was irrelevant. We debated this for hours upon hours at the Pit but ended up in a similar 'tastes great/less filling' argument every time. This often lead to evictions from the establishment. For the record, the ball is hard and all we had to do to earn a FIRST CLASS, was hit the damn thing. I earned a first in this course.

Q3- 100m Sprint - This only took us a couple of weeks to figure out. We had two 1 and 1/2 hour classes per week. What we had to do was use a rolling metre stick. Every time there would be a 'click', this would count for one metre. After several discrepancies ( sp?) between the students, we finally came up with unanimous solution. We agreed that there were 100 clicks which meant a 100m race covered EXACTLY 100 metres. I hope this clears this question up for everyone out there.

Q4- Frank Smith - The Phys Ed students requested Frank for a couple of legitimate reasons. Firstly, his softball skills were second to no one. We always questioned his football ability but boy could he hit a softball. Secondly, we knew if we asked him one question about the football team, we would be walking away with a genuine first class. Did he know our names ? Hell no, but he earned the utmost respect from his students when they received their transcript and it read ' 1st Class'. Yes, I did receive a 1st class in this difficult course.

Q5 - Surprised Alan - This one is a dodgy question but I will do my best to answer. If Alan's reaction to my alleged intramural incident was utter disgust, I think Alan may be found hanging from the Lion's Gate Bridge if he knew about some of the ex and current 86ers escapades off the pitch. I think it is best that these stay hidden , FOR NOW.

I hope these questions quench you curiousity and give you a whole new respect for the Physical Education program at UBC.



By Chocolate Abdul-Regsheem (Admin) (209.53.4.104 - 209.53.4.104) on Tuesday, March 23, 1999 - 11:24 pm:


The Wolf,

Good stuff, I like to see others taking the piss in here, other than the regulars (ALL-CAPS knuckleheads aside)...

Gregor,

I agree with Burnsie... very witty (especially enjoyed the dig at Paul James)...

Burnsie,

It's all coming back to me now... I remember back in '93 up on the hill and everyone on my mathematics intramural team were commenting on the brutality they had witnessed the week before during a field trip to the TRIUMPH facility out at UBC... When I heard who was involved, I made a mental note and decided that I couldn't justify playing for Club Ireland anymore... the rest is history.

Alan,

Heard that the sixers have 'released' (AKA CUT) Richie S. this weekend. This seems rather harsh as according to your report he was injured and not yet training (one session so far I believe)... This Abbotsford team must really be something ;-)

~Regsheem.



By Chocolate Abdul-Regsheem (Admin) (209.53.4.104 - 209.53.4.104) on Tuesday, March 23, 1999 - 11:32 pm:


Alan,

Can you answer a question for me? Why is that Carl comes out to Metro league games to scout players? Is he not the COACH of the sixers? Why is Carl making all the inquiries about players? I'm not being facetious (sp? Gregor?) about this, but isn't that supposed to be someone else's job?

~Regs.



By Gregor Young (Gregor) (209.52.76.48 - 209.52.76.48) on Tuesday, March 23, 1999 - 11:37 pm:


Regs,

Supposedly Dal's out too.



By Hanson (Mh) (207.194.18.176 - 207.194.18.176) on Tuesday, March 23, 1999 - 11:48 pm:


Hi all,

After hearing Burnsie bash BL (seems rightfully so), I was wondering how each of you felt about another canadian and vancouver soccer guru - Dale Mitchell.

Without going into much detail I'll say that twice he has become confrontational with me while I was playing and he was "coaching" (I use the term loosely). Perhaps this is just me and my mouthy style, but I've gotten the feeling that Dale is a little uppity. How is he viewed in the eyes of the forum regulars?

Cheers,

Mmmbop.



By Chocolate Abdul-Regsheem (Admin) (209.53.4.104 - 209.53.4.104) on Tuesday, March 23, 1999 - 11:51 pm:


This is just getting stranger by the day...

From what I gather, the sixers have cut Ollie before 'training' camp, cut Richie S. after 1 session (which he didn't participate due to injury), and now have also cut Dalrymple after one session. Facking 'ell !!! The season doesn't even start for another 5 weeks, doesn't it? I'm not saying these players are world beaters, but isn't it a little premature to be releasing players at this time?...

Milan must be having a heart attack ;-)

~Regs.



By Chocolate Abdul-Regsheem (Admin) (209.53.4.104 - 209.53.4.104) on Tuesday, March 23, 1999 - 11:55 pm:


Hanson,

FWIW, I've absolutely no commentary on Dale Mitchell. Never played against him, for him, or been in the same bar... One item of note is that I've also never heard anyone else talk about him either... there's a silver lining somewhere in there ;-)

~Regs.



By Gregor Young (Gregor) (209.52.76.48 - 209.52.76.48) on Tuesday, March 23, 1999 - 11:59 pm:


Actually, Regs, that's something I d like to see Carl do more of. Apparently Alex Ferguson still covers England checking out mid week reserve games looking for future Man U stars.

Carl's been to one of our games this year. I've talked to him a couple of times and he's asked if we've got any players he should look at. I told him who I thought was worth a look but I know neither he nor Bob rate the league. I agree with a lot of what they think of Prem. but it is still the strongest league and the best place to judge young players in terms of suitability for the 86ers.



By Chocolate Abdul-Regsheem (Admin) (209.53.4.104 - 209.53.4.104) on Wednesday, March 24, 1999 - 12:03 am:


Gregor,

My point was that I didn't think it was Carl's job to be out looking for players... I could be wrong...

One game, that's it ??? I don't know if that's a good sign or bad ;-) He's been to our last three alone that I know of (no wonder he doesn't rate players in our league ;-) ).



By Irish Chocolate Abdur-Burnsallah (Burnsie) (216.66.132.66 - 216.66.132.66) on Wednesday, March 24, 1999 - 12:05 am:


Hanson,

Dale to me was always a nice guy and a good player. He was very quiet and was a good role model for younger players. I didn't follow his professional ways as I tended to stray away from the professional approach and usually leaned toward the amateur approach. HAVE A GREAT ****ING TIME.

I don't really know Dale as a coach. I did play against his team in the Under 21 league this year but he said very little. Maybe it was because they beat us 4-0 and there really was no doubt who the better team was. I spoke with him briefly after the game and he seemed very cordial. This is all I can add at this time , Hanson.

Did I tell you that I think Bob Lenarduzzi is an idiot/ass hole ?

Regsheem, good questions regarding BL's presence at the local games. I thought it was the gm's role to scout for players. Maybe he was taking another one of his FREE cruises or driving one of his FREE cars. As I stated before, these people will soon realise what a farce the man really is.

AS-SALAAMU ALAIKUM



By Gregor Young (Gregor) (209.52.76.48 - 209.52.76.48) on Wednesday, March 24, 1999 - 12:08 am:


I've never thought of Dale as being anthing but class. Only know him as a player though, not a coach.



By Chocolate Abdul-Regsheem (Admin) (209.53.4.104 - 209.53.4.104) on Wednesday, March 24, 1999 - 12:15 am:


Where's Reedy? Gregor, Burnsie, Regs, and even Hanson are still hanging around tonite... Has he really gone soft (he's an ex-sixer, so consider this a sixer rant)?

~Regs.



By Irish Chocolate Abdur-Burnsallah (Burnsie) (216.66.132.66 - 216.66.132.66) on Wednesday, March 24, 1999 - 12:25 am:


Reedy,

Where are you ? You have got your reference letter now SO start speaking. I am going to stay awake until this happens. Good night.



By Martin Rose (Martin) (159.33.2.50 - 159.33.2.50) on Wednesday, March 24, 1999 - 08:24 am:


From what I've seen you are more likely to see Carl scouting players at Kinsmen or Ambleside simply because he lives in West Van. I don't know if BL has been to a VMSL game but he lives in North Van as well. I think both Carl and BL scout players. Carl is the coach and should have some input into who he think is a good fit in the squad. However both Regs and Burnsie are probably right that BL has the final say on actually signing the player.

Marty



By Chocolate Abdul-Regsheem (Admin) (209.53.4.104 - 209.53.4.104) on Wednesday, March 24, 1999 - 12:42 pm:


Martin,

This is true and I never that of that (Carl on the north shore)... I brought it up 'cause he was at Sapperton Park on Sunday... Someone should tell all the young lads in the lower mainland to move to the north shore if they have any sixer aspirations ;-)... Is that why Roy infused money into Peg? ;-)

~Regs.



By Doddy (206.116.51.2 - 206.116.51.2) on Wednesday, March 24, 1999 - 03:33 pm:


Alan (In response to your comments),

I didn't get cut. I asked for my release before the playoff game due to a lack of integrity and hypocrisy in the coaching decisions. This "coaching style" was apparent to most, if not all, of the players last year and the years preceeding. Hence, there is a lack of respect for the coach that has developed which is the foremost reason for the average success of the team over the last 5 years. However, with this backwards organization, they will overhaul the players before they fire the coach.



By SYSA/SFC (Roy) (209.52.188.17 - 209.52.188.17) on Wednesday, March 24, 1999 - 05:15 pm:


Regs
The reason SFC/SYSA invested in Pegasus was to be able to have that f...... horse in its logo!!!!

Also to have the top caliber of soccer in BC available to our members to strive for without leaving the Club. With that we get the opportunity to have young players exposed to quality players such as the Peg Lads (alright even Niall) and to have the horse tatooed on them.

As for CV I asked him to take a look at Smurfy and he has not spoken to Sean yet (for the reserve team Dale is coaching)

As to Dale he has always been a class act on the field and off. Hanson brings out the worst in the opposition, why else would he love playing Surrey boys? Dale runs a soccer academy in the summer and our embers that have attended have nothing but the best to say about him.

Now about Niall, can someone fill me in anout his fight night Sunday, please.

RM



By Alan Douglas (206.12.82.25 - 206.12.82.25) on Thursday, March 25, 1999 - 01:43 pm:


I've been sans internet for a few days. Will try to catch up.

Regs,
Nice detective work. Hats off. But was it really worth it? I thought we were talking about Niall's career recently, ie when he was released by Brentford, not back when he had those stupid visa problems (1996 I think). At that time, yes, his career did appear to take a tumble. He had been a prominant A-League player, and was still young enough that Canadian soccer fans were keeping an eye on him for the National team. Then the US State Department got in the way and he vanished from people's radar for like a year (I believe he was actually in Europe, but I don't think I knew that when I wrote the Usenet article). Fans stopped putting him on their "national team prospects" list and he fell into the "whatever happened to category." But that was then this is now.

Oops. 86ers media duties call. Gotta get offline and send a fax.

Burnsie, Gregor, Milan, et al
I'll be back!

Alan/



By Alan Douglas (206.12.82.44 - 206.12.82.44) on Friday, April 2, 1999 - 10:19 am:


Whew, that was a long fax :-)

Some quick unfinished business...

Regs,
My understanding is that Carl and Dale do most of the local scouting, while Bob handles the hundreds of soccer resumes and tryout requests, and deals with any new out-of-town talent that may come into the picture. Although Bob is now GM, the way it works is that Carl generally handles player signings as he got into doing that when he was GM and they decided to keep it that way for continuity. All possible signings are discussed beforehand at team meetings between Bob, Carl, and Dale. I imagine Bob would have final say. Essentially though, Bob is in charge of club operations, while Carl is in charge of the first-team operations.

Doddy,
I wasn’t aware you had left the team before the playoffs last season, and of course I never said anything about you ever getting cut. That was just Regs misrecollecting things.

In the past, I too have been critical of the 86ers keeping Carl on as coach, and I think I’m the only member of the media to ever speak up on the issue. My concern though has been more that it's cost the team fans, rather than any severe reservations I have about Carl's abilities. I like Carl, and I recognise that he’s still fairly new to coaching, so I’m willing to cut him some slack on that score. But other people aren’t, and I know that’s a problem -- I’m just not convinced that firing Carl is the only or the best solution to that problem.

You see I’m not the type that thinks that firing the coach is always the best way of improving the team. It’s just an easy fix that GM’s and owners fall back on all too often. Unfortunately, fans tend to view it as the correct thing to do. Often it is. But often it’s the players who are the problem. Look at the Canucks. How many coaches have they gone through lately? How many coaches in the NHL could turn them into winners?

You’re a player Mike, and you think that the problem is the coach. Fair enough. But I think it’s interesting how when the 86ers had huge success (with Bob as coach) people here say it was the players who were responsible and not the coach, but when they don’t have success it’s suddenly the coach’s fault. Easy to the tell that this is a forum dominated by players, eh? :-)

Now my perspective is different. I’m a fan. I’m a fan of the team, of Bob, of Carl, of the players. If the team doesn’t do well, then it’s perfectly obvious to me who’s at fault. The ref :-)

Cheers,
Alan/

PS
Mike, I’d honestly be interested to hear what kind of specific coaching decisions Carl made that you feel demonstrated hypocrisy and a lack of integrity. You can reply by email if you prefer. Thanks.



By Alan Douglas (206.12.82.44 - 206.12.82.44) on Friday, April 2, 1999 - 10:28 am:


Moving things in a fresh direction:

I see there’s been some comments in a VMSL results thread (since closed) on all the Div 1 players at the 86ers training camp.

So, let me get this straight...

If some foolish 86ers fan came here and expressed the attitude that “all the best players in Vancouver play for the 86ers, while those at lower levels, like VMSL Premier, aren’t as good and shouldn’t be taken seriously” then you would all howl with outrage and heap endless abuse and ridicule on the poor sod, explaining all the many reasons why good players would prefer to play Premier instead of for those gawdawful 86ers.

At the same time, I seem to be seeing the attitude here that all the best players in Vancouver play for VMSL Premier, while those at lower levels, like Div 1, aren’t as good and shouldn’t be taken seriously. People here seem to be carrying on as if there isn’t a single reason why a good young player might prefer to play Div 1, instead of for one of the almighty Premier sides.

Is that an accurate impression? Just wondering :-)

If anyone has any questions about the players at the 86ers training camp, or issues they would like me to address, then by all means ask and I’ll do my best to get an answer. And if there are any suggestions for players who you think the 86ers should take a look at (ones they haven’t already seen, naturally) then please put them forward.

Actually, I find it rather strange how I often hear criticism of the players the 86ers have, but very rarely do I ever hear suggestions of possible players they should look at. That might make for a fun discussion. Anyone care to fire off a list of potentially A-League-calibre VMSL players that have never before been involved with the 86ers? I’m not being sarcastic. This is sincere. I’d be particularly interested to see if we can come up with five names that everyone agrees on! I’ll pass on your suggestions to Dale and Carl. I know that Dale in particular is looking for good new players for his Abbotsford 86ers reserve team.

BTW, speaking of the Abbotsford 86ers, would they be tarred by the same biases that people hold against the Vancouver 86ers? The points in Abbotsford’s favour are:

1) They are a completely new team, with no past history of “crimes” against local amateur soccer
2) They are not run by Bob Lenarduzzi, but by local soccer people in Abbotsford
3) Carl is not the coach, Dale is
4) the league they play in (PDL) is vehemently amateur and therefore makes no claims about being “professional”
5) their games are free to attend
6) they’re not looking for money from kids or parents
7) the team has a fairly short schedule and travel goes no further than Oregon, so it’s nowhere near as huge a commitment as playing A-League (which I gather deters so many local would-be soccer stars)

Are people here willing to be open-minded about the Abbotsford 86ers, or is it a case of automatically dumping on anything that bears the name “86ers”? Just wondering :-)

Alan/



By Gregor Young (Gregor) (207.194.147.37 - 207.194.147.37) on Friday, April 2, 1999 - 11:35 am:


Alan,

By extension, with your defense of Div. 1 players trying out for the Sixers, there could be some gems playing in Div. 3 or maybe even in the North Shore Summer League.

As someone, perhaps the only one here besides you, who still thinks the A-League is a big step up from Metro Premier in terms of both pace and skill, I can say from what I've seen that the gap between the top Prem teams and Div. 1 is even bigger.

If players want to play for the Sixers they should be showing they are serious by playing at the top level available to them and that is Metro Prem.

As for players who should or could be trying out for the team, and I stress that I'm not saying they should be signed and starting, Westside have a few.

Dave Griffiths. As James Prescott says about him "All pace, all the time." Like Ivor Evans in his younger days without the explosive temper. Heading off to Trinidad and Tobago soon so the national team program can have a boo at him. Scores goals at will some games. Perhaps the player most feared by outside backs in the league.

Robbie Hall. Outside back with great speed and strength. Only 21. Hardest shot in Prem. and yes he can keep on net. Had trial with Dundee last year. Spoke to Carl about him and Carl spoke to Rob but nothing came of it.

Aaron McCarthy.
Cut by Paul James from Canadian U-19s so he went to Jamaica and played for them. Very strong on the ball, tremendous instincts when ball is near him but still needs high level coaching to round out his game. Central midfielder. Could play his way out of a sealed can of sardines.

Steve Dickinson
In the same mould as Dave Griffiths, just not quite as much pace. Still, very talented, very smooth on the ball, makes good decisions and equally committed to defensive duties which is impressive because he's naturally a striker who plays out of position for us wide on the left.

There may be other young players on other Prem teams but I don't know them well enough. These four I would feel confident enough to say they would be among the top players of all new players currently trying out.



By Gregor Young (Gregor) (207.194.147.37 - 207.194.147.37) on Friday, April 2, 1999 - 11:46 am:


These are just the younger Westside players I was thinking of as being worthy of considertion.

I'm a bit surprised there was no interest in Simon's proven goal scoring abilities. Someone who scores as much as he does from every possible scenario should at least be brought in to see if he can do it at that level and pair up with Domo or Jason Jordan.



By Chocolate Abdul-Regsheem (Admin) (209.53.4.104 - 209.53.4.104) on Friday, April 2, 1999 - 11:55 pm:


Alan,

You said if any of us had some questions that you would try and track them down... I keep hearing that this Niall Thompson guy is shite... is this true or is he really the second coming of a great soccer star?

~Regs.



By Dutch Chocolate Abdul-Wahaab Big'unallah (Chris) (204.244.19.142 - 204.244.19.142) on Saturday, April 3, 1999 - 10:26 am:


Gregor,

Don't you find it interesting that YOU had to provide the scouting report on one of the top premier clubs? Are not most soccer people in Vancouver aware of the gap between Div 1 and Prem?

Now if they do happen to check these players out, which Alan should probly pass on to BL & CV , can you imagine the sixer PR machine on how well it scouts, develops, and utilizes local talent?

Though I agree with Alan in that the sixer's are going to get ragged for NOT looking and hence should be credited for at least looking for that unknown talent, I don't know which metaphor fits best. "... a diamond in the rough." "... a needle in a haystack." Yes, they might find a good quality player in Div 1,2, etc., but wouldn't their chances be significantly higher looking in Prem?



By Gregor Young (Gregor) (209.52.76.1 - 209.52.76.1) on Saturday, April 3, 1999 - 10:46 am:


Chris,

I know what you mean but in fairness to the Sixers I think they do have a fairly good idea of the talent in Prem. They just don't rate it that highly.

I spoke to Carl at half time in our game yesterday (what with the clinic we were putting on there wasn't much to say to the guys so I wandered over to say hi to him and Smac). I asked him, jokingly, why they were raiding Rich. Utd. He wasn't sure what I meant and it became clear, and I'm not saying this to take shots at Rich. Utd or any other club or team, that a lot of the guys who are out now are serving the dual purpose of making up the numbers while players are still away with NPSL clubs and allowing the team to start putting together their Abbotsford reserve team.

When I mentioned that there were some players on our team he should look at he made a very good point. If he asks those players to come in now, from our team and others still in the Prov Cup he'll have coaches and club exec members down his throat. Very true.

When I mention players I think should be considered it's not just based on their play thus far . I suggest those players because they are also likely to still have the capacity to improve and raise their games in an environment that demands this.

There's been many players who could light up Prem. but they can't raise their game any further and have an impact at the Sixers level.



By Irish Chocolate Abdur-Burnsallah (Burnsie) (216.66.132.36 - 216.66.132.36) on Saturday, April 3, 1999 - 10:54 am:


Gregor,

Nice to see you surfaced so early. How many players in premier would truly want to play with the sixers anyway ? I am not being sarcastic. I don't believe there would be a huge interest in it. I could be wrong but again, finances must play a major role.

AS-SALAAMU ALAIKUM



By nutsaboutsoccer (209.148.239.32 - 209.148.239.32) on Monday, April 5, 1999 - 06:10 pm:


There are a lot of good players out there that the sixers are passing up. What ever happend to good ol' Nico Berg...I heard he got injured pretty bad, isn't he a physio why can't he mend himself and get out there...The sixers need some good young midfielders....who do they have so far in the midfield who is any good?



By Alan Douglas (206.12.82.75 - 206.12.82.75) on Wednesday, April 7, 1999 - 11:21 am:


Gregor,

Thanks for the list of players. Let’s go over it.

David Griffiths tried out for the 86ers last year. He didn't look like much then, and clearly wasn't up to A-League calibre. I've since kept my eyes peeled for him though (he was hard to miss till he lost the dreadlocks), and IMHO he's been showing considerable improvement this season with Westside. I've discussed him with Dale. The way I heard it though is that David is going to T&T to play in their pro league.

Rob Hall we know about. We rate him highly, and he’ll play on our reserve team. I’ve even spoken several times with his father.

Aaron McHardy (note the correct spelling) we know about. He’s also rated highly (and I also know his father). He's played in our Development League, and for last year’s reserve team. A very intelligent and perceptive player. I haven’t discussed him with Dale recently, but I imagine if he’s available this summer, then he’ll be with the reserves.

Steve Dickinson -- I can't say he's caught my eye as much as the other three have. I'll watch for him at your next game. My instructions from Dale and Carl though are to find players who are "tearing up the league.”

So you see, we're not as totally clueless about Metro league players as some might think. So anyone care to put forward any more names? Or does Westside have all the talent?

Oh and the salient point with all these trialists from Div 1 is that several are young CSA carded players, and those are always worth a look. The rest are mostly from UBC (with which we have close ties) and have played in the Development League. Making up the numbers? Maybe. But they're all fairly young and will likely be playing somewhere in our reserve system this summer. At the very least, it's good experience for them.

Alan/



By Alan Douglas (206.12.82.97 - 206.12.82.97) on Wednesday, April 7, 1999 - 11:45 am:


Regs,

Funny you should ask about Niall. I saw him play a few times for Peg earlier on, and he was terrible. That hammering by Croatia A for example -- he couldn't do anything right. Then he comes to the 86ers training camp, and while he looked rusty to start, every day he was there he got better and better. When I saw him next play for Peg, at Sapperton Park, he was the best player on the field. And he just keeps getting better.

The only explanation that I can see for this transformation is that Peg must have started doing some amazingly effective training routines just around the time that Niall joined the 86ers camp. I don't know what you guys have been doing, but it sure has worked wonders for Niall. I'd like to thank Peg for helping Niall regain his form. It's much appreciated.

Cheers,
Alan/



By Alan Douglas (206.12.82.97 - 206.12.82.97) on Wednesday, April 7, 1999 - 12:23 pm:


Nutsaboutsoccer,

I agree, there are a lot of good players out there. But I honestly haven't seen anyone that is better than the players the 86ers already have, and not many that are even on par. That of course is just my opinion, and I know other people have their own.

I must say though (and I direct this at the group in general) that I grow tired of people criticising the 86ers for what they’re doing yet never suggesting what the club should be doing instead. Ok, you think the 86ers have passed over some great local players. Fair enough. Other people have said it too. But I think such an opinion would carry much more weight if one were to actually offer some examples.

As for Nico, I'm afraid I don't know anything about his injury status. I do know he'll be reporting to the 86ers camp as soon as he's fit.

Cheers,
Alan/



By Hanson (Mh) (209.53.102.19 - 209.53.102.19) on Wednesday, April 7, 1999 - 12:26 pm:


Alan,

How has Johnny Sulentic been faring in training camp? If I was to submit a list like Gregor's, Johnny would be at or near the top. He's an incredibly skilled player, young and has a real nose for goal.

Another kid I think you should take a look at is Victoria's Tyler Hughes. He has played with Lower Island Metro, their RTC team in last year's developmental league, the Canadian U-20 side of a year past and now I beleive is on scholarship at UNLV. He is a remarkable player, being so composed on the ball at such a young age (18 I believe). Worth a shot I guess.

Cheers,

Mmmbop.



By Chocolate Abdul-Regsheem (Admin) (209.53.4.104 - 209.53.4.104) on Wednesday, April 7, 1999 - 12:32 pm:


Hanson,

Re: Tyler Hughes...

If he's on scholarship at UNLV, he can't be touched, unless he decides to make the biggest mistake of his life ;-)

Note I don't even know this kid, my point applies to all US college boys (including SFU).

~Regs.



By Chocolate Abdul-Regsheem (Admin) (209.53.4.104 - 209.53.4.104) on Wednesday, April 7, 1999 - 12:46 pm:


Alan,

RE: Niall...

We're just trying to do everything we can to support Vancouver's "professional" soccer team...

Why has it taken the sixer's so long to at least contact Mastro to play? There's a name for you from Peg to look into... someone who plays his position very well to a dominating degree, but has never played in any "special" programs. Is this just a coincidense... judging from what i've heard and what you've posted in response to div 1 players trying out, I'm thinking No.

You've been givin' plenty of examples in here who possibly should be looked at (or at least hints have been givin')... but at the same time, my arguements have tried to deal with an apparent lack of scouting from the sixer's end in the past. I admit that they have seemed to be doing a better job lately by at least coming out to some of the games.

~Regs.



By Alan Douglas (206.12.82.97 - 206.12.82.97) on Wednesday, April 7, 1999 - 01:40 pm:


Hanson,

Sulentic has only been in camp one day so far. He looked pretty good from what I recall. He was in camp last year as well for a short time. The Croatia lads (including both Mori's) are expected to show up in camp this week or early next. It's just been a case of scheduling conflicts with their club.

Hughes is certainly a player we know about. I haven't seen Dale's list of reserve candidates, but some have already started showing up in camp this week. I'll know who they all are soon enough.

Regs,
Danny Mastromonaco? He's a pretty good player, but I haven't seen him in a Peg uniform much this year. He's also a name I've heard before, like years ago, and considering all I knew about local soccer years ago was the 86ers, I'm lead to believe that he is a player who's been looked at in the past. Are you sure he's never be involved with 86ers tryouts or the reserve team? (eventually I'll finish sorting through the hundreds and hundreds of 86ers files that is the legacy of Ian Michaud, and then I might be able to answer my own question)

I'm not going to claim that the 86ers have always done a superb job of scouting. I can only report on what I've seen recently. I know it's still far for from perfect, but it's getting there. We've now got the start of a proper system in place (the Development League and the reserves) for finding any and all up-and-comers.

Hints?! What is this? 20 questions. I did see Burnsie mentioning some Richmond United player named Nasher with a wrecked knee. I assume that's Nick Nashlund. He saw action in the Development League and for our reserve team last year!

It seems to me that part of the problem in all this is that people simply don't hear about all the players that the 86ers do look at. So lacking any info to the contrary you simply *assume* that we don't give these players a chance.

Burnsie,

The Abbotsford 86ers are strictly amateur, so Dale can sign anybody. One of the whole points behind the PDSL is to give opportunities to US college players, and get them involved in the USL system so they can move up to the D3-Pro, A-League, and MLS ranks when they graduate.

The teams that the Abby 86ers will play are stacked with NCAA div 1 players.

Cheers,
Alan/



By Chocolate Abdul-Regsheem (Admin) (209.53.4.104 - 209.53.4.104) on Wednesday, April 7, 1999 - 02:14 pm:


Regarding Mastro,

That's my point! Mastro has been hurt for most of the season, has just turned 27, and is about to be married at the end of May, and it's only now that Dale has contacted him... just seems kinda backwards. Please don't jump down my throat about saying players never get looked at and when they do, they still get chastized... the timing is just a little curious, that's all.

Regarding hints:

If people are not *hearing* about all the players the sixers look at, who's fault is that? You said yourself that you heard Mastro was a good player and assumed he must have been involved somewhere along the line in years past... wrong assumption and yes, I think I would know.

If the sixers really have hundreds upon hundreds of player profiles, it seems pretty narrow-minded to me that a player can be assumed to have not matured as a player since his initial *scouting*.

Sorry about the rambling, I'm trying to work here at the same time as posting... before I lose any semblence of responses in my head.

~Regs.



By Chocolate Abdul-Regsheem (Admin) (209.53.4.104 - 209.53.4.104) on Wednesday, April 7, 1999 - 02:16 pm:


PS. What does Burnsie have to do with this mini discussion?... you have a small habit of dragging others into these debates, whether by mistake or not ;-)

~Regs.



By Alan Douglas (206.12.82.63 - 206.12.82.63) on Wednesday, April 7, 1999 - 11:58 pm:


Regs,

It's nobody's fault if people don't hear about which players the 86ers are looking at. I wasn't trying to assign blame. The media has almost no interest in covering 86ers reserve games and the like so it’s not so easy to get the word out. Reserve players have been mentioned in the past in programs and newsletters, but those have small circulation. It's only now with the internet that the 86ers (and the BC Soccer Web) can actually publicise that sort of info.

And as I said before, I'm not saying the 86ers scouting was perfect in the past. For all I know it may have been terrible. The point is though that it's moving in the right direction, and seems to now be better than people generally give it credit for.

As for “dragging” Burnsie into this, on April 4 in the Is the new VMSL premier format a bust? thread he wrote:

It is too bad about Nasher. He is an excellent player. I hope he is able to recover from the
surgery and come back at the same level. He is a player that our wonderful 86ers should be looking at.

I rather thought that might have some relevance to this discussion :-)

Alan/



By Roy (206.108.197.109 - 206.108.197.109) on Thursday, April 8, 1999 - 06:45 am:


Alan
I have three times brought Sean Murphy to both Dale's and Carl's attention. No one has contacted him. Here is a player who jumped from U19 to playing regularly for Peg. He is a more complete player than Aaron Mc.
Where is David Morris in the mix. Finest striker I have ever played against.
Brandon McLaren?, youngest player at the Canada Games two years ago. Kevin Saunders?
Tyler Hughes is in South Carolina.
RM



By Alan Douglas (206.12.82.33 - 206.12.82.33) on Thursday, April 8, 1999 - 11:39 am:


I can't speak for Dale on this, but based on my conversations with him, his reserve candidates fall into four categories:

1) players he knows well and who he wants for the reserves
2) players he knows well and who are borderline
3) players he doesn't know well and wants to get a look at
4) young players he doesn't know and can come up through the Development League and get scouted that way.

Those in groups 1 and 3 have been contacted and will be coming into camp. Those in group 4 have not been contacted. The group 2's will be contacted as opportunities arise, depending on what happens with the other players. Dale doesn't want to bring players into camp unless there's good reason to.

If Sean hasn't been contacted, then worst case scenario is he stars for SFC Peg in the Development League, and plays his way onto the Abby 86ers that way. That's what the system is for.

And let's keep in mind that the reserves are not a youth team. An 18-year-old would really have to stand out, a la John Sulentic.

As I said, I haven't seen Dale's list of players. A few names have been dropped, and a few came up in early discussions I had with him. Morris was certainly on the list early on. Where he fits in now, I can't say. Whether he's interested in playing for the reserves or is looking elsewhere, I can't say.

We'll all know who's trying out by Monday.

Alan/



By Gregor Young (Gregor) (209.52.76.128 - 209.52.76.128) on Thursday, April 8, 1999 - 02:22 pm:


Alan,

Here's what I said to Chris:

I know what you mean but in fairness to the Sixers I think they do have a fairly good idea
of the talent in Prem. They just don't rate it that highly.

I've never suggested the 86ers are 'clueless' about the talent in Metro Prem. What I would be interested in finding out is whether the Abby 86ers are truly a 'reserve team' where the next best 18 players will play or if it is a developmental squad for younger players. While there may be some U-21 who could be legitimate 'reserve' team players, most I think wouldn't be better than many other players around town who are in their mid-twenties.

Full agreement with Sulentic as a young player who could go places with some fine tuning. Don't know Mastro that well but he is quality at what he does. There's just a lot of other people in that same mould and he's getting up there on the age side of things.

Talent selection, particularly in soccer, is a very subjective art. Dale knows talent and I'm sure he knows how to put the right types of talent together on a squad. We could question his choices and Carl's until Y2K strikes us all down but why bother. As long as they make the effort to consider a wide range of players in the process there are few who could argue they are more knowledgeable or better equipped to select players for the team.



By Dutch Chocolate Abdul-Wahaab Big'unallah (Chris) (204.244.19.166 - 204.244.19.166) on Thursday, April 8, 1999 - 04:42 pm:


Gregor & Alan

Indeed, nothing is more selective than scouting and evaluation of talent. Certainly the sixer's are going to get ripped unfairly in varying areas, and Alan has begun to address these by commenting on specific players from the assorted leagues. I think the impression from many forum regulars is simply that they don't actively pursue players that are not in the "ploitical mainstream" of the lower mainland soccer arena.

With that in mind, the value of this forum seems to grow, for it allows people (Gregor, Regs...) to post information about "potentially" valuable players, and gives Alan the opportunity to present these players to the sixer organization. It seems to me that with the location of the sixer's, calling up players for "looks" should be a frequent occurrence, if it is not already.

Also, could someone please enlighten me on how sixer training camp works. Is there "true" competition for jobs or are most penciled in prior to the season, with very few developments from camp. What opportunity is given to "walk-ons"?



By Chocolate Abdul-Regsheem (Admin) (209.53.4.104 - 209.53.4.104) on Thursday, April 8, 1999 - 07:26 pm:


Alan,

Quote:

Burnsie,

The Abbotsford 86ers are strictly amateur, so Dale can sign anybody. One of the whole points behind the PDSL is to give opportunities to US college players, and get them involved in the USL system so they can move up to the D3-Pro, A-League, and MLS ranks when they graduate.

The teams that the Abby 86ers will play are stacked with NCAA div 1 players.

...

This is what I was referring to. I was the one you should have been addressing, not Irish.

Gregor,

Good post, I agree almost completely (I take issue with the getting up there in age bit ;-) ).

Dutch,

Well from what I've seen, a lot of players were told not to come back this year before camp even started. You'ld think that they would at least been given the opportunity to win a job. Also, these players were let loose not at the end of last year, but within weeks and during training camp (w/o actually training). This doesn't make sense to me...

~Regs.



By KAAOS (24.113.31.226 - 24.113.31.226) on Friday, April 9, 1999 - 01:13 am:


USUALLY A PROFFESIONAL SOCCER TEAM HAS IT'S' A' TEAM SELECTED ON ITS,INDIVIDUAL PERFORMERS,WITH A REGARD TO THEIR TEAM PLAY,AND A RESERVE TEAM, THAT IS STACKED WITH' UP AND COMERS' ALONG WITH PROVEN PRO'S THAT CAN STEP IN AND FILL THE ROLE IN THE EVENT OF A RASH OF INJURIES OR A GENERAL NEED FOR CHANGE (ALWAYS HAVING COMPETION FOR A SPOT ON THE TEAM IS GOOD AND HEALTHY) SOMETIMES PLAYERS JUST 'GO OFF THE BOIL'AND LOSIMG A PLACE IN THE STARTING ELEVEN IS MOTIVATION ENOUGH.
SURELY PLAYERS LIKE,CRAIG D,RICHIE S, ET AL SHOULD BE PUT IN THIS SPOT AND NOT TOLD THEY
'WERE NOT GOOD ENOUGH TO PLAY '
IF THE 86'S START OUT BADLY AND LOOK TO MAKE SOME CHANGES,HAVE THEY 'BURNT ANY BRIDGES' WITH HOW THEY HAVE HANDLED THESE PLAYERS?
IF I AM PICKING UP THE THREAD OF WHAT C.V IS SAYING,HE IS PUTTING HIS STAMP ON THIS YEARS TEAM WITH THE SELECTIONS WHICH IS RIGHTLY SO,IF HE DOES WELL(WHICH I HOPE HE DOES) GREAT IF NOT IT MAY BE TIME TO LOOK FOR A DIFFERENT APPROACH
CHEERS KEITH



By nutsaboutsoccer (209.148.243.56 - 209.148.243.56) on Friday, April 9, 1999 - 09:08 am:


The sixer have lost so many of their players from last year. Too many! As for johnny I think he is too young and ****y for his own good!the guys were just gaining good chemistry and the young guys like Skinner and such when he wasn't sidelined from injury were improving. Is he coming back this year. Him and the UBC boys had a great season this year. What about the Clarke brothers have they been asked to return? There is one young player who I like to watch and find very exciting...Greg Cambell of Norvan. Too bad he is going off to states for Uni in Sept. Well ciao !



By Chocolate Abdul-Regsheem (Admin) (209.53.4.104 - 209.53.4.104) on Friday, April 9, 1999 - 10:46 am:


Coach K,

GOOD POST, I HEAR YA LOUD AND CLEAR ;-) YOU MAKE A GOOD ANALYSIS OF THE SITUATION THAT THE SIXERS HAVE PUT THEMSELVES IN... I ALSO, BELIEVE IT OR NOT, HOPE THEY DO WELL, BUT ONLY FOR THE FACT THAT EVERY OTHER VANCOUVER FRANCHISE SUX !

~Regsheem.



By Chocolate Abdul-Regsheem (Admin) (209.53.4.104 - 209.53.4.104) on Friday, April 9, 1999 - 10:57 am:


Nutsaboutsoccer/collegeqt,

I'm starting to think u may need some psychiatric help ;-)... I see a frightening stalking personality in your posts... which sister are you claiming to be this time? Although to give you credit, at least you do seem to have some knowledge of certain players...

~Regsheem



By Toze (207.194.208.124 - 207.194.208.124) on Friday, April 9, 1999 - 12:13 pm:


FWIW...

The one player from Norvan I'm shocked isn't in the Sixers mix is goalkeeper Steve London. He's 22 or 23, plays at SFU and definately has the tools to compete, at least at the A'League level.

Greg Campbell is also quite good but think Norvan have a handfull of younger players around the same level.

Has Simon Tate ever had a sniff with the Sixers?

Andrew English plays wider receiver with the Toronto Argonauts and has played with Norvan on and off for several years...I'd have to say he could step into the 86'ers line-up in a second. He loves soccer but the C.F.L. pays the bills.

I think its a well established fact amongst the soccer community that to play with the Sixers, you are an exceptional player in terms of the Metro Premier League level...but there are many others who for whatever reason don't ever get a shot. Maybe because they never wanted one or becasuse of some other political bullshit etc..

Toze