Div 2 FVSL Div 2 2019/20

vojdog

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U actually get 2 permits plus 7 inter club permits .

U can use the 2 permits for any prem players that wanna play and 7 inter club permit for players in lower divisons teams within your club system.

We use and used last year up to 9 permits when we needed to
Interesting. I asked for clarification regarding this and was not provided this info. Thanks for the response.
 

InanimateCarbonRod

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It's been a tough year for the U-21 teams coming up. They all have plenty of skill but its a huge jump to playing against a group of men on the other side of the ball. I think using Div 2 as the entry level may have been a little ambitious.

One thing I can say is that I hope the kids on those teams don't get discouraged. Some of the players have a lot of talent and in 2 years @peg leg and I will be reminiscing about the days when we could run show on those guys.
 

vojdog

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It's been a tough year for the U-21 teams coming up. They all have plenty of skill but its a huge jump to playing against a group of men on the other side of the ball. I think using Div 2 as the entry level may have been a little ambitious.

One thing I can say is that I hope the kids on those teams don't get discouraged. Some of the players have a lot of talent and in 2 years @peg leg and I will be reminiscing about the days when we could run show on those guys.
May I ask where you think the correct spot would be? With no actual U21 division options are limited. Going to VMSL means more travel and less options with no other teams from our club in the league. Perhaps the league needs to do more to encourage clubs to get u-21 teams registered and have an actual division like 3-4 years ago. Forgive me if I am wrong but div 3 and 4 are still groups of men ;)

Cant speak for the other teams but our group has been positive all year long and the experience will only make us stronger moving forward. Even in Mission playing a man down would have been easy to give up. At half the boys talked about just having fun and playing as hard as they could knowing the cards were against us.
 

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It's been a tough year for the U-21 teams coming up. They all have plenty of skill but its a huge jump to playing against a group of men on the other side of the ball. I think using Div 2 as the entry level may have been a little ambitious.
I'll dive in and dissect this one a bit, as I think it is a conversation worth having.

You may well be out watching these teams on a semi-regular basis and, if so, I will certainly defer to your better judgement, but if you are only basing it off the Dynamo's experience playing these sides head to head, then your view might be slightly skewed. You seem to have caught TSS and Dragons on two of their more, share we say, "ill-prepared" days of the season and delivered lopsided wins. Worth noting that Dynamo failed to do the double over either team though, drawing Dragons and losing to TSS in the other meeting. Surrey United U21 are not up to this level, and you guys have smashed them at the weekend, as has most everybody, but they have amassed roughly the same statistics as WRU and SAFC and one of them with still be in the league next season.

There are five (technically six with TSS having two entries) "U21" teams in the FVSL this season. Two in Div. 1, two in Div. 2 and one in Div. 3. TSS, who's "U21" team is technically in Div. 1 are comfortably mid-table. Abby U21 are in a relegation scrap, just like last season, and it looks as though they will eek out survival again this season after an important draw with Langley FC at the weekend. Into Div. 2 and Dragons are a new entry to the FVSL this season. Div. 2 looks to be roughly the "right level" for them and they would be pushing for a Provincial Cup spot if not for them being on U21 forms. If we are counting TSS's B team, they have done enough to end up mid-table as well, though maybe not quite as convincingly as Dragons. Surrey, as discussed, are not up to this level and will be relegated. Which is what happens (or at least should happen...) when your performances do not merit being in the division in which you currently find yourself. Worth noting that they did not "start" at this level, they were actually relegated from Div. 1 last season; another level they should not have been at. For all that, though, as mentioned, they are having a season similar to that of newly promoted SAFC, so it is not totally outlandish to think that, if they were in the other pool, perhaps their fate could have been different. The other team is Port Moody Rangers U21 who are lower mid-table in 3A. There was a PMO Gunners U21 who were in the upper reaches of 4A last season. Not sure if there is any association between those two teams or if this "Rangers" side is a new entity.

So then, to the point @vojdog was making: where should these teams play? Five teams is not enough to make its own U21 division. From my understanding the FVSL and VISL no longer think U21 is a sustainable model and are shifting away from it as opposed to looking to revive it. The U21 Provincial Cup is down to an 8 team tournament this season and BC Soccer is strongly considering scrapping it after this year (the women's U21 cup collapsed a few seasons back). Additionally, the FVSL continues to have spots to fill because teams refuse to take promotion. Case in point, why are Abby B and Red Devils still at this level after winning their divisions last season? This creates gaps that the league has to fill in Division 1 and teams are brought in to fill those gaps. This season, at Div.1, those teams were TSS U21, North Surrey Mustangs and Juba. TSS U21 finished above both those other non-U21 entries, with North Surrey failing to win a game before being thrown out of the league. At Div. 2 the league filled a spot by adding Wakanda to the division and allowing them to skip over playing in Div. 3. They look as though they will be right in that mid-table mix with TSS and Dragons.

That being said, those openings at higher levels are the main reason that the league was able to entice TSS to join the FVSL after they played VMSL U21 last season. They wanted to move that group to proper men's league but would have had to start at Div. 3 and they felt they were better than that. This is an ongoing problem for the VMSL, with teams aging out of U21 and wanting to stay together. Coquitlam Metro Ford were powerhouses in that division for many seasons, but, three years in a row they had a team move into open. Last season's league winners West Van were the same and are now in Division 3. More and more U21 is seeing Academy teams (Faly, Micro Footie, TSS, etc.) with kids 14-17 on the squads using the league as a way to get regular competitive football, rather than just training. It would seem that U21 is now going the way of the CAT where it was originally designed as a level for Premier/other top level teams to develop players and maintain a larger roster, but is now acting as an almost "Div. 4" (in the case of the VMSL).

So here is the question: Would you still feel this is not the "right level" for these teams if they did not have "U21" attached to their name? If they were just a group of young guys who got slotted in where the FVSL had an opening, would you be as concerned?

Side note, in an absolute travesty of a decision, the FVSL did not seed their U21 cup draw and the three "best" teams (Abby, Dragons and TSS) are all in the same half. With only the two cup finalists qualifying for U21 Provincials that means only ONE of those three teams will represent the FVSL, while the other will be the winner of Surrey U21 against Port Moody U21. SMH.

What would be interesting to know is, if Dragons do fail to get past both Abby and TSS, would they be eligible to qualify for the Provincial B Cup if their league standing sees them finish in a place that would otherwise qualify?
 

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I don’t think you could give them a spot even if they do finish above Surrey, and don’t qualify for U21 provincials. The max amount of points they can get is 33, which would currently be 4th in pool A, and after all is said and done 33 points would likely be less than 6 teams in pool A.

In my opinion if Surrey fail to finish 3rd they shouldn’t get in automatically, as they currently will. The 4th place team in pool A should be allowed that 6th spot. However Surrey likely will finish 3rd, and should get the spot in that scenario.
 

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It's been a tough year for the U-21 teams coming up. They all have plenty of skill but its a huge jump to playing against a group of men on the other side of the ball. I think using Div 2 as the entry level may have been a little ambitious.

One thing I can say is that I hope the kids on those teams don't get discouraged. Some of the players have a lot of talent and in 2 years @peg leg and I will be reminiscing about the days when we could run show on those guys.
For some, but not all. TSS u21 did just fine, and Abby u21 was "ok" in Div 1.
 
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Connor J

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In my perfect world they do 2 pools next year of 8. But have pool A be the higher pool. Top 4 team end of this year go pool A bottom 4 from each go pool B, any teams getting relegated to div 3 the new div 3 teams go pool B and if a team goes up the div 1 team goes pool A. Play ever team 3 times that way ever game matters. Honestly too many teams right now in div 2 and teams should be winning 10-0 9-0 8-0.
Top 4 teams in pool A make provincials winner of cup makes provincials and then winner of pool B plays 5th place A and 2ndB plays 6thA. End of season 2 go up to A from B and 2 go down from A. Would honestly think would make the season more entertaining and more rival

Pool A 2020-21
Abby
Mission
Langley City
Poco/Aldy/Westcoast United
Red Devils
Dynamo
Surrey
Dragons
 
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Dude

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In my perfect world they do 2 pools next year of 8. But have pool A be the higher pool. Top 4 team end of this year go pool A bottom 4 from each go pool B, any teams getting relegated to div 3 the new div 3 teams go pool B and if a team goes up the div 1 team goes pool A. Play ever team 3 times that way ever game matters. Honestly too many teams right now in div 2 and teams should be winning 10-0 9-0 8-0.
Top 4 teams in pool A make provincials winner of cup makes provincials and then winner of pool B plays 5th place A and 2ndB plays 6thA. End of season 2 go up to A from B and 2 go down from A. Would honestly think would make the season more entertaining and more rival

Pool A 2020-21
Abby
Mission
Langley City
Poco/Aldy/Westcoast United
Red Devils
Dynamo
Surrey
Dragons
I like the discussion.

I don't like the Pool A & B thing, though. Call it what it is, then: div 2 and div 3. Div 3 becomes 4, 4 becomes 5. Simple.

In Men's footy, teams need to learn how to fight for placement in the division they are in, and either promote up, or if a season proves they can't handle, demote down. Allow the laws of the jungle to rule.

I have no opposition to the league(s) accommodating U21 squads, or graduating teams. The tough part is finding ways to accommodate. Who can argue TSS' team doesn't belong in Div. 1, and argue it hasn't been good for them? I'm sure the club finds it useful, too. Besides, in a lot of ways, it does help address some problems. The league will always have teams wanting to play divisional shenanigans...refusing promotion, etc. Likely it's the league's biggest headache. The U21 squads help to serve to solve problems. Getting it right is tricky, though. For most higher tier U-21 squads, likely Div. 2 is appropriate competition.
 
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Canucks4Ever

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In Men's footy, teams need to learn how to fight for placement in the division they are in, and either promote up, or if a season proves they can't handle, demote down. Allow the laws of the jungle to rule.
This is the biggest issue in the FVSL because it simply does not happen.

However, sources have indicated to me that the league may be opting for a stronger stand beginning this off season, starting with expansion to a 10 team Premier Division.

Not sure whether this means going to a 10 team Division 1 as well, but that likely makes the most sense given the 8/12 split currently.

From there Division 2 reform could be on the cards.

The biggest "putting the foot down decision" for the league though is forcing teams to go up or forfeit their spot. Ie no staying in the same division if you win the league, either go up or disband. It might be a painful process with push back at first, but right now it is the lunatics running the asylum so to speak and the league has got to swing the balance of power back at least somewhat.
 

4thplacetrophy

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This is the biggest issue in the FVSL because it simply does not happen.

However, sources have indicated to me that the league may be opting for a stronger stand beginning this off season, starting with expansion to a 10 team Premier Division.

Not sure whether this means going to a 10 team Division 1 as well, but that likely makes the most sense given the 8/12 split currently.

From there Division 2 reform could be on the cards.

The biggest "putting the foot down decision" for the league though is forcing teams to go up or forfeit their spot. Ie no staying in the same division if you win the league, either go up or disband. It might be a painful process with push back at first, but right now it is the lunatics running the asylum so to speak and the league has got to swing the balance of power back at least somewhat.
I think if you stay down you should start the following season on negative points, and banned from entering the presidents cup. Allow them in Bradner, and say if they make up the point gap, and still qualify for provincials they’re eligible.

Teams would think twice about staying down if they truly don’t have anything to play for.
 
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vojdog

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I'll dive in and dissect this one a bit, as I think it is a conversation worth having.

You may well be out watching these teams on a semi-regular basis and, if so, I will certainly defer to your better judgement, but if you are only basing it off the Dynamo's experience playing these sides head to head, then your view might be slightly skewed. You seem to have caught TSS and Dragons on two of their more, share we say, "ill-prepared" days of the season and delivered lopsided wins. Worth noting that Dynamo failed to do the double over either team though, drawing Dragons and losing to TSS in the other meeting. Surrey United U21 are not up to this level, and you guys have smashed them at the weekend, as has most everybody, but they have amassed roughly the same statistics as WRU and SAFC and one of them with still be in the league next season.

There are five (technically six with TSS having two entries) "U21" teams in the FVSL this season. Two in Div. 1, two in Div. 2 and one in Div. 3. TSS, who's "U21" team is technically in Div. 1 are comfortably mid-table. Abby U21 are in a relegation scrap, just like last season, and it looks as though they will eek out survival again this season after an important draw with Langley FC at the weekend. Into Div. 2 and Dragons are a new entry to the FVSL this season. Div. 2 looks to be roughly the "right level" for them and they would be pushing for a Provincial Cup spot if not for them being on U21 forms. If we are counting TSS's B team, they have done enough to end up mid-table as well, though maybe not quite as convincingly as Dragons. Surrey, as discussed, are not up to this level and will be relegated. Which is what happens (or at least should happen...) when your performances do not merit being in the division in which you currently find yourself. Worth noting that they did not "start" at this level, they were actually relegated from Div. 1 last season; another level they should not have been at. For all that, though, as mentioned, they are having a season similar to that of newly promoted SAFC, so it is not totally outlandish to think that, if they were in the other pool, perhaps their fate could have been different. The other team is Port Moody Rangers U21 who are lower mid-table in 3A. There was a PMO Gunners U21 who were in the upper reaches of 4A last season. Not sure if there is any association between those two teams or if this "Rangers" side is a new entity.

So then, to the point @vojdog was making: where should these teams play? Five teams is not enough to make its own U21 division. From my understanding the FVSL and VISL no longer think U21 is a sustainable model and are shifting away from it as opposed to looking to revive it. The U21 Provincial Cup is down to an 8 team tournament this season and BC Soccer is strongly considering scrapping it after this year (the women's U21 cup collapsed a few seasons back). Additionally, the FVSL continues to have spots to fill because teams refuse to take promotion. Case in point, why are Abby B and Red Devils still at this level after winning their divisions last season? This creates gaps that the league has to fill in Division 1 and teams are brought in to fill those gaps. This season, at Div.1, those teams were TSS U21, North Surrey Mustangs and Juba. TSS U21 finished above both those other non-U21 entries, with North Surrey failing to win a game before being thrown out of the league. At Div. 2 the league filled a spot by adding Wakanda to the division and allowing them to skip over playing in Div. 3. They look as though they will be right in that mid-table mix with TSS and Dragons.

That being said, those openings at higher levels are the main reason that the league was able to entice TSS to join the FVSL after they played VMSL U21 last season. They wanted to move that group to proper men's league but would have had to start at Div. 3 and they felt they were better than that. This is an ongoing problem for the VMSL, with teams aging out of U21 and wanting to stay together. Coquitlam Metro Ford were powerhouses in that division for many seasons, but, three years in a row they had a team move into open. Last season's league winners West Van were the same and are now in Division 3. More and more U21 is seeing Academy teams (Faly, Micro Footie, TSS, etc.) with kids 14-17 on the squads using the league as a way to get regular competitive football, rather than just training. It would seem that U21 is now going the way of the CAT where it was originally designed as a level for Premier/other top level teams to develop players and maintain a larger roster, but is now acting as an almost "Div. 4" (in the case of the VMSL).

So here is the question: Would you still feel this is not the "right level" for these teams if they did not have "U21" attached to their name? If they were just a group of young guys who got slotted in where the FVSL had an opening, would you be as concerned?

Side note, in an absolute travesty of a decision, the FVSL did not seed their U21 cup draw and the three "best" teams (Abby, Dragons and TSS) are all in the same half. With only the two cup finalists qualifying for U21 Provincials that means only ONE of those three teams will represent the FVSL, while the other will be the winner of Surrey U21 against Port Moody U21. SMH.

What would be interesting to know is, if Dragons do fail to get past both Abby and TSS, would they be eligible to qualify for the Provincial B Cup if their league standing sees them finish in a place that would otherwise qualify?
Great post with many good points and very good research.

Being my first year in the league still learning a lot but your point about promotion is interesting. Looking back Abby United has actually won the division 3 years in a row. What else do they have to prove? Very surprising they would not accept the challenge of playing in division one.

Your point about U21 cup is spot on. I have an email typed out that I havent hit send on stating the exact same thing. In all divisions (FVSL and VMSL) teams first earn provincial births via standing with an extra spot possibly earned through a cup run. With no U21 league clearly spots based on standing isn't possible. That being said the only logical way to proceed is seeding. Does the league not want its best two teams representing it? The fact we scored 5 against surrey with 10 men in dominant fashion and they are handed a spot is just not right. Not saying we deserve anything but seeding is such an obvious path forward.

Thanks for your point regarding the leagues stance on U21. Helpful knowledge as we plan for the next season.
 

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This is the biggest issue in the FVSL because it simply does not happen.

However, sources have indicated to me that the league may be opting for a stronger stand beginning this off season, starting with expansion to a 10 team Premier Division.

Not sure whether this means going to a 10 team Division 1 as well, but that likely makes the most sense given the 8/12 split currently.

From there Division 2 reform could be on the cards.

The biggest "putting the foot down decision" for the league though is forcing teams to go up or forfeit their spot. Ie no staying in the same division if you win the league, either go up or disband. It might be a painful process with push back at first, but right now it is the lunatics running the asylum so to speak and the league has got to swing the balance of power back at least somewhat.
Well, I can honestly tell you I don't have sources anymore, only speculation. My old sources have kinda washed their hands of this stuff and are truly not in the know, so I'm left to kinda guess.

So, here's my free speculation and opinion...

As much as I've been (very) critical of the league for the handling of challenges like pro / rel / etc., I also wholeheartedly agree with the concept of a 10 team division. Firstly, internally, it allows for enough varied competition and interest. Playing home / away plus cup matches simply keeps it more exciting, and even. Having to play three complicates the balance and also makes it far more boring.

Externally, the league is simply stronger if they can manage to have a strong 10 team premier division. In the end, it's Provincials that matter, and your ability to compete in it. There should be enough clubs in the FVSL to make this a reality. Also, see HOS, when Pigs Fly, WWII comment, etc..

I don't know exactly how this expansion may look. It may be as uncomplicated as promoting 2 up, and not demoting any. In the past we've heard all sorts of rumors- some pretty crazy- of VMSL Clubs moving over. I.e.: Peg, I've even heard of Croatia. There was the West Van thing. I can't see any of that happening, but who knows. I do agree the division needs to be 10 strong. I suppose IF (massive IF) there was a team looking to move over, that would add strength, and yeah, drop down the weaker of either Vancouver or CCB.

I do know this:
-Division needs to be 10 strong.
-Div 1 should match (again, promoting strength, do not water down w/ two sides)
-Should probably have a 10 team 2nd division, and simnply keep adding divisions of 10 all the way down till you run out of numbers. If there is a div 6, so be it.
-They need to stick to a hardened Constitution on pro-rel model, with consequences.

It's WAY, WAY easier said from the peanut gallery than in reality. 100% get that, and frankly, I don't offer my volunteer time to any sports organizations any more because it's the shittiest job on the planet. You work full time, get all the shite criticism, never get paid. So, I get it. That being said...

Last year, a strong club won 1st then declined. Yeah, I know the whole argument was that that crop of vets would have been murdered in prem, and those people would be right. BUT, the VMSL has gotten around this for years by allowing the cash currency economy to play out. This is when spots either get sold, or weird mergers happen. Telling me that spot would not have had value to some other club, in some way? It has leverage in both the FVSL and VMSL. Promotion is the boobie prize for winning, you need to go up. So, I'd say if there were any cash rewards for winning, it should be held till the beginning of the next year once the club accepts promotion. Secondly, severe consequences for failing to go up, such as being demoted to the very bottom of Div 4 or whatever the lowest is. It then becomes the club's loss, because frankly, at 30+ years of age most guys could give a toss. The spot has more value to the club than the players.

This season, with at least one strong club looking to go up, it may be the time to push the reset button and stick to some hard lines.

There are other issues, too, that I'll reserve comment on.
 

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I think if you stay down you should start the following season on negative points, and banned from entering the presidents cup. Allow them in Bradner, and say if they make up the point gap, and still qualify for provincials they’re eligible.

Teams would think twice about staying down if they truly don’t have anything to play for.
YES, very good example of a consequence. Guys want something to play for, and the Provincial B spot is something.
 

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Promotion is the boobie prize for winning, you need to go up. So, I'd say if there were any cash rewards for winning, it should be held till the beginning of the next year once the club accepts promotion. Secondly, severe consequences for failing to go up, such as being demoted to the very bottom of Div 4 or whatever the lowest is. It then becomes the club's loss, because frankly, at 30+ years of age most guys could give a toss. The spot has more value to the club than the players.
This ^

You should absolutely have to go up.

First off - who the fcuk wouldn't want to play in the best division possible for their respective club? Right off the bat, this is counterintuitive. Like you said, "The spot has more value to the club than the players", and that's exactly it. You're representing the club, not the other way around. It should be a priority to make sure your club is competing at the highest level possible.

If the players would rather stay in their current division, instead of promotion, then go play for a lower division team. Simple. It shouldn't be a problem considering competition clearly isn't a priority.

This league is supposed to be competitive; once you start letting teams pick and choose where they want to play; it is - by definition - not a competitive league anymore (Obviously over-exaggerated, but you get what I mean).

The FVSL isn't meant to be a Bedazzled Beer League.
 

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I like the discussion.

I don't like the Pool A & B thing, though. Call it what it is, then: div 2 and div 3. Div 3 becomes 4, 4 becomes 5. Simple.

In Men's footy, teams need to learn how to fight for placement in the division they are in, and either promote up, or if a season proves they can't handle, demote down. Allow the laws of the jungle to rule.
Not just adult soccer. Need to cut this 1A-1B nonsense in youth too. 1B is always a weaker, usually much weaker, division. Just call it Div 2, which is what it is.
 

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Been a pet peeve of mine forever .
Coached a u11 and u12 team in consecutive seasons. In both seasons started in 1A. Probably won-tied about 40%. In both seasons finished season in 1B. Probably won 95% by big scores. The drop in quality was stunning to me and disappointing to win those games. Would have preferred to have the close fought games, but lose, in 1A! 1B was clearly the second division and should be named as such. We need to stop lying to these parents and players. And the adult soccer world is the same - pro-rel, require it. if you get relegated, suck it up and get better, or realize you are never going pro and just play the game for fun in the lower division. If relegated from prem to div 1, then work your arse off to get back to prem.
 

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Hey. My experience exactly last time I coached here in Whistler. U-15 girls at the time, started season actually in div. 2 (which everyone else, including the co-coach I joined were calling "silver") where scores were double digits. Seriously hard to watch as our girls would just score at will, for fun, and not get challenges. We'd switch positions, take girls off, and they'd keep scoring. The league bumped us right to 1A, and scores became all close, but still a winning %. Seemed the parents all preferred the "silver", not "gold" placement due to scores. Was more fun apparently. Like, WTF. We were calling up younger girls every week (Whistler, half the girls do some weird winter sport at a national or even international level, so they miss games to other sports travel), still getting results, and playing with 1-3 subs weekly. Tons of time, great development. My daughter started the year a solid div. 2 player, ended the year a very good Div. 1A player. The proper levels are critical, and close matches critical. Knowing what level you are and being honest is also critical. The whole Gold / Silver / Bronze thing was always stupid. 1A & 1B even dumber. Why is it so hard to simply go 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, etc.? Can someone on an organizational level answer that question for me?

Sorry, way off topic now....
 
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ThiKu

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The whole Gold / Silver / Bronze thing was always stupid. 1A & 1B even dumber. Why is it so hard to simply go 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, etc.? Can someone on an organizational level answer that question for me?

Sorry, way off topic now....
I am not an organizer of these leagues, but it makes no sense to me either. BCSPL should just be BCSPL Division 1, Metro Division 2, Division 3 so on and so forth down the tiers. Call it what it is.
 

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