Div 2 FVSL Div 2 2019/20

Canucks4Ever

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Alright we get it you want Abby B to move up
To be fair, it is not necessarily "want" per se.

It is the fact that when a league allows teams to stay in the same division they just won, it often means there are spots that need to be filled at higher level. The teams that seize their opportunity to go up having not won that right, or teams that come into the league and take an open spot are often not at the proper standard.

This creates an imbalance at the higher level, while, often, also skewing things in the division where the team remains. Over time you end up with the clusterfcuk that is FVSL Premier and Division 1 and now, it appears, Division 2 as well. Divisions 3 and 4 in the Valley seem to be working as normal with teams keen to go up when they win, but it is not unrealistic to think that the problem will continue to trickle down.

The fact that Abby B has won the Div. 2 title THREE years in a row and remains in the same division is absolutely criminal IMO. It completely denigrates the "competitiveness" of the FVSL as a whole. The league has to take a strong stand and enforce their Pro/Rel model strictly. If that leads to teams saying "if you force us to go up we are going to fold" (as I believe was the go to line for ND the past two seasons re: going to Premier) then so be it. Call their bluff. Sometimes you have to shoot a hostage.

Things will not get better overnight, but they did not collapse overnight either. It will take a few cycles for the league to reap the benefits, but you have got to sow the seeds at some point or else you will just continue to go in circles...
 
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Soviet Bratva

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Abby B will move up after this season.. just kind of shitty that there is no provincials for Div 1. Which is the only reason we wanted to stay down in the first place.
 

krisztiant

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this year is the first year that Abby B has run away with it. The other seasons they won, but not by this large of a points margin/goal differnce. Div 2 right now is very competitive week in and week out. There for a team who barely squeeks out a top spot might not think they will compete well in D1. Look at the Royals didn't get relegated, seemed to compete well in D1 and they're still going good in d2, but are in competitive games almost every week.
 

ThiKu

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this year is the first year that Abby B has run away with it. The other seasons they won, but not by this large of a points margin/goal differnce. Div 2 right now is very competitive week in and week out. There for a team who barely squeeks out a top spot might not think they will compete well in D1. Look at the Royals didn't get relegated, seemed to compete well in D1 and they're still going good in d2, but are in competitive games almost every week.
Terrible excuse not to go up. The whole point in playing in FVSL/VMSL/VISL is to win and move up. If that's not the goal, then play in the local municipality beer league.
 
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Dude

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Yep. Or sometimes by other means. In the VMSL both the finalists in cup competition qualify. Previously the FVSL has given a spot to the SC Cup champions.
....But Div. 1 doesn't compete n this. The only route to the provincials for Div. 1 is through winning the Pak. I'm sure @Rangerforever can tell us about that. (rolleye emoji)
 
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Canucks4Ever

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....But Div. 1 doesn't compete n this. The only route to the provincials for Div. 1 is through winning the Pak. I'm sure @Rangerforever can tell us about that. (rolleye emoji)
SC Cup was originally optional for Div. 1 teams a few years ago. If a Div. 1 team wanted to enter again the league might be amenable.

The point was just to illustrate that the leagues have the freedom to determine their own qualification pathway at their discretion. Could FVSL go to two qualifiers via the Cup like VISL and VMSL in the future? It is up to them.
 
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Dude

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SC Cup was originally optional for Div. 1 teams a few years ago. If a Div. 1 team wanted to enter again the league might be amenable.

The point was just to illustrate that the leagues have the freedom to determine their own qualification pathway at their discretion. Could FVSL go to two qualifiers via the Cup like VISL and VMSL in the future? It is up to them.
Yes, correct.

I don't even know how many spots total the league has, but I think it's ONLY the winner of the Pak, so that means one spot only open to a Div. 1 team to grab- currently.
 

Canucks4Ever

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Yes, correct.

I don't even know how many spots total the league has, but I think it's ONLY the winner of the Pak, so that means one spot only open to a Div. 1 team to grab- currently.
Currently FVSL has 5 A-Cup spots.

This season it is top 4 UPL plus Pakenham winner. If Pak winner is from the top four then fifth place qualifies.

Previous few seasons it has been top three UPL plus Pak and SC winner.
 

suburbanator

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The biggest "putting the foot down decision" for the league though is forcing teams to go up or forfeit their spot. Ie no staying in the same division if you win the league, either go up or disband. It might be a painful process with push back at first, but right now it is the lunatics running the asylum so to speak and the league has got to swing the balance of power back at least somewhat.
So let me get this straight...we allow teams to stay in D2 for 6 straight years, and then suddenly invoke a new rule that forces promotion? Sure... so put it in the AGM so that starting the season everyone knows the rewards/consequences of success and failure.

If I remember correctly pretty sure Sparta (twice), Abby B (three times?) and FVRD have all won the division in the last 5 years and none where forced to move to D1.

Abby B, Mission and FVRD are basically X premier squads at some point, albeit less fit now and less interested, and IMO they are awesome additions to D2, in no way would I want them gone. It Brings the level of Competition in D2 to what it should and could be rather than a glorified D3.

Writing is on the wall with nobody wanting promotion, if your best teams outside of Premier programs want to stay in D2 then B Cup Provincials clearly are important to those teams (who are part of the voting membership) and therefore their choice to stay in D2 should be respected. Jesus...the mighty rangers stayed in D1 for a decade.

If we can't win the Provincial B Cup with our best 4 teams, how will FVSL fair if Dynamo/Abby B/FVRD/Mission all were in D1?

Your telling me that our hope of a FVSL B Cup Championship would lie in the hands of Surrey United or Langley City FC?

D1 is for "Cat" teams for Premier teams or D1 should be rolled in to B Cup and then this conversation would be over. Give D1 and D2 teams a choice of Pak or Pres, A or B cup and you will see a big change.

Personally, I don't really complain that Abby B, FVRD, Mission and the other very strong veteran teams stay in D2, I love games against them and I cheer for them when they play VMSL/VISL teams in the provincials, enemies on the field, but team-mates of mine in the FVSL when it comes to provincials.

lunatics running the asylum??
Nope, managers making the correct choice for their team and themselves, while actually representing the FVSL at the highest level possible.

Lets see... Dynamo Choices (and I bet you see similarities with other top 5 squads)

DIV1
  • Move To Div 1 with 16 players over the age of 32.. = Bad Choice
  • Move To Div 1 for the same level of competition = Bad Choice
  • Play 18 Games + 1 Cup game = Yawn.
  • Sign up for slow-pitch while provincials are taking place = Sad Choice
  • Compete for players with Current D1 Squad = Bad for LUSA Club.
DIV2
  • Stay in Div 2 with aging squad = Good Decision until all 20 are O35
  • Finish top 4-5 = Good Decision
  • Play 22 Games + 2-10 Cup games = Good Decision
  • Support Current D1 team on permits = Good Decision for Club
  • Play in Provincials representing FVSL = Great Decision
I bet the only people that want the top 4 gone, are the bottom 6 in each group...

FVRD, you guys probably dislike us, but would D2 better without us? Want us to move on to make room for the comeback of FC Marga, or KittenMittens or whatever the next one-and-done team that appears in D2 is?

Lets also factor in prize money... Zero for winning D2, pretty much all resources have moved to Premier. Give me $500-1000 for winning a division, then we will all go have some division winning beer, which is what most of us are playing for.

4. PRIZES & AWARDS 2018-2019



Premier Division WinnerTBA
All other divisions Trophy
Pakenham Cup, Winner $1,000
President’s League Cup Winner $200
Master’s Cup Winner $200
U-21 Cup, Winner $200
Bradner Cup Winner$100 x 3
SC Cup Winner$750



Anyhow.. sorry for the long rant..haven't been on in a long while.
 

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Also, just going to say, @suburbanator (loved your yearly rant, BTW, normally comes around President's Cup time), but Provincial B. It's a nice accomplishment, but the goal of the league is winning Provincials. You don't keep div. 2 strong at the expense of strengthening the two higher divisions. Makes zero sense from a league standpoint. It's like tripping over dollars to save nickles.

I see exactly your point, managers acting in the best interest of the team, but now you have an overall weaker league by allowing too much rogue control.

Also, come on...please... "Move To Div 1 for the same level of competition = Bad Choice"

It's simply not. Div. 1 over 2 is a significant jump in quality. Playing for the Pak is way, way more exciting than a President's Cup run. Even if you go all the way in President's, it doesn't compare to the Pak, where there is a real birth on the line.

Again, your squad and you are doing the best for your squad. It's what makes you a very good manager, and that is something I know 100% to be true. Guys love playing for you. I know exactly what it is like to get into the mid 30s and playing div. 1. It becomes very, very hard all of a sudden. But that is life, you move onto Masters. You are playing by the rulebook you have in front of you, which is, a no-rules rule book. Can't say I blame you.

So, I counterpoint all this while also saying, you are 100% right. You play to your crowd, and you play to the set of guidelines in front of you.
 
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suburbanator

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Also, just going to say, @suburbanator


Also, come on...please... "Move To Div 1 for the same level of competition = Bad Choice"

It's simply not. Div. 1 over 2 is a significant jump in quality. Playing for the Pak is way, way more exciting than a President's Cup run. Even if you go all the way in President's, it doesn't compare to the Pak, where there is a real birth on the line.

You want to make D1 Strong? Move Abby B, FVRD, Mission and Dynamo into it...and let us all play for B Cup.. that way you get all your wishes..and FVSL has a chance at a Provincial B Cup..

Not sure D1 is much stronger, unless I am using our own D1 team as too much of an example. I'd bet $50.00 that we'd split a 2 game series against them.

But more to the point yes, I also blame @Rangerforever

Funny thing is, we'v never actually decided what we'd do if we won. Who knows, maybe masters regardless. I was just stirring the pot. Would be nice to win it clean though, not with FVRD dumping. FVRD is easily the best team in FVSL D2.
 

4thplacetrophy

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So let me get this straight...we allow teams to stay in D2 for 6 straight years, and then suddenly invoke a new rule that forces promotion? Sure... so put it in the AGM so that starting the season everyone knows the rewards/consequences of success and failure.

If I remember correctly pretty sure Sparta (twice), Abby B (three times?) and FVRD have all won the division in the last 5 years and none where forced to move to D1.

Abby B, Mission and FVRD are basically X premier squads at some point, albeit less fit now and less interested, and IMO they are awesome additions to D2, in no way would I want them gone. It Brings the level of Competition in D2 to what it should and could be rather than a glorified D3.

Writing is on the wall with nobody wanting promotion, if your best teams outside of Premier programs want to stay in D2 then B Cup Provincials clearly are important to those teams (who are part of the voting membership) and therefore their choice to stay in D2 should be respected. Jesus...the mighty rangers stayed in D1 for a decade.

If we can't win the Provincial B Cup with our best 4 teams, how will FVSL fair if Dynamo/Abby B/FVRD/Mission all were in D1?

Your telling me that our hope of a FVSL B Cup Championship would lie in the hands of Surrey United or Langley City FC?

D1 is for "Cat" teams for Premier teams or D1 should be rolled in to B Cup and then this conversation would be over. Give D1 and D2 teams a choice of Pak or Pres, A or B cup and you will see a big change.

Personally, I don't really complain that Abby B, FVRD, Mission and the other very strong veteran teams stay in D2, I love games against them and I cheer for them when they play VMSL/VISL teams in the provincials, enemies on the field, but team-mates of mine in the FVSL when it comes to provincials.

lunatics running the asylum??
Nope, managers making the correct choice for their team and themselves, while actually representing the FVSL at the highest level possible.

Lets see... Dynamo Choices (and I bet you see similarities with other top 5 squads)

DIV1
  • Move To Div 1 with 16 players over the age of 32.. = Bad Choice
  • Move To Div 1 for the same level of competition = Bad Choice
  • Play 18 Games + 1 Cup game = Yawn.
  • Sign up for slow-pitch while provincials are taking place = Sad Choice
  • Compete for players with Current D1 Squad = Bad for LUSA Club.
DIV2
  • Stay in Div 2 with aging squad = Good Decision until all 20 are O35
  • Finish top 4-5 = Good Decision
  • Play 22 Games + 2-10 Cup games = Good Decision
  • Support Current D1 team on permits = Good Decision for Club
  • Play in Provincials representing FVSL = Great Decision
I bet the only people that want the top 4 gone, are the bottom 6 in each group...

FVRD, you guys probably dislike us, but would D2 better without us? Want us to move on to make room for the comeback of FC Marga, or KittenMittens or whatever the next one-and-done team that appears in D2 is?

Lets also factor in prize money... Zero for winning D2, pretty much all resources have moved to Premier. Give me $500-1000 for winning a division, then we will all go have some division winning beer, which is what most of us are playing for.

4. PRIZES & AWARDS 2018-2019



Premier Division WinnerTBA
All other divisions Trophy
Pakenham Cup, Winner $1,000
President’s League Cup Winner $200
Master’s Cup Winner $200
U-21 Cup, Winner $200
Bradner Cup Winner$100 x 3
SC Cup Winner$750



Anyhow.. sorry for the long rant..haven't been on in a long while.
Mission would take promotion if we earned it. I’ve talked to everyone on our team, and there’s only 2 guys that really wouldn’t want to go up. Everyone else doesn’t care, and just enjoy playing every week regardless of what’s at the end.


I always want to win trophies just like anyone else, and I know moving to div 1 gives far less opportunity for that to happen. However that being said I still would want to respect the fact that if we were the best team in division 2, and earned promotion we would take it. If that results in Mission being a mid pack div 1 team then so be it, that’s fine, but at least we aren’t winning the same trophy over and over.
 
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