Referee Improvement

[Soccer Coach]

As many of you are aware, over the last few months, and even years, the issue of referee performance has been brought up.

Players, coaches, and managers would like an improvement in the performance of the referees.

It is not a simple issue of demanding more and supervising them more alone. In many aspects, they are simply workers who are been asked to conduct tasks and situations that can be quite difficult or challenging.

The VMSL has been accumulating funds over the years and enjoys a healthy surplus of money. Referees have been instrumental in helping the VMSL to achieve this surplus. It is their labour the one that has generated the surplus.

In my view, it would be desirable that the referees get more benefits and also more support to improve their performance.

Can you please discuss of any thoughts and ideas? Perhaps we can articulate them at the next AGM.

Some things that I was thinking of were:
1) Receiving a fee to cover expenses for games that are cancelled (please correct me if they do they get paid in case of a suspended game).
2) 2 or 3 paid assessments, so they can receive feedback.
3) An increase in their fees.
4) Other benefits for them in case of injury or sickness.
5) Maximum number of games per week (some seem overworked).

Please discuss your thoughts and ideas.

 

[Regs]

I don't know what you are on about. Until you came along, no one has ever complained about refs on TTP over the 18 years it has existed.

No one.

Ever.

Must be a cultural thing.

 

[Soccer Coach]

I don't know what you are on about. Until you came along, no one has ever complained about refs on TTP over the 18 years it has existed.

No one.

Ever.

Must be a cultural thing.

I must beg to differ. I have seen multiple post complaining about refereeing. Including specific ones with names.

 

[akslop]

I must beg to differ. I have seen multiple post complaining about refereeing. Including specific ones with names.

I'm Sure beg for Lots of things

 

[DeltaDodger]

As many of you are aware, over the last few months, and even years, the issue of referee performance has been brought up.

Players, coaches, and managers would like an improvement in the performance of the referees.

It is not a simple issue of demanding more and supervising them more alone. In many aspects, they are simply workers who are been asked to conduct tasks and situations that can be quite difficult or challenging.

The VMSL has been accumulating funds over the years and enjoys a healthy surplus of money. Referees have been instrumental in helping the VMSL to achieve this surplus. It is their labour the one that has generated the surplus.

In my view, it would be desirable that the referees get more benefits and also more support to improve their performance.

Can you please discuss of any thoughts and ideas? Perhaps we can articulate them at the next AGM.

Some things that I was thinking of were:
1) Receiving a fee to cover expenses for games that are cancelled (please correct me if they do they get paid in case of a suspended game).
2) 2 or 3 paid assessments, so they can receive feedback.
3) An increase in their fees.
4) Other benefits for them in case of injury or sickness.
5) Maximum number of games per week (some seem overworked).

Please discuss your thoughts and ideas.

They are not workers in any sense.

They are paid volunteers. They do what they do for love of the game not for any financial gain. My cousin is a referee in Britain and he gets paid in line with what they get here. 40 pounds to be in the middle and 20 pounds to be the lino. I know that he officiates more games than any of our officials here as he sometimes is doing 12 in a week in one guise or another. he loves the game and was never any good at playing it but found he could stay involved etc by reffing.

More training and assessments would definitely help but those are done at a provincial level as they are the ones who certify the officials and do all the training etc

We all have a whine at the refs from time to time. there are some we dont get along with but are excellent officials and some we get along with but think are terrible officials. They have bad days as do us as players and coaches.

It would be great if all officials were perfect and got every call right but that would take all the fun and randomness of the sport out of it. a lot of decisions in the end are not black and white like in and out in tennis but require quick decisions which arent always correct in one of the teams minds but are what the ref saw and called. I wish some refs were more communicative during the game but overall i think they do a good job in the difficult position they are in. We had a game a few weeks ago where we saw a foul, wasnt called and the other team scored. the ball was going back to half and the ref apologized and said he missed it and got it wrong. i thought that was excellent refereeing even if it cost us a goal.

i think the refereeing standard has actually gotten better over all the time i have been involved in adult soccer. I expect it to continue to do so.

 

[Gurps]

Do the refs declare income on their tax returns?

 

[Soccer Coach]

They are not workers in any sense.

They are paid volunteers. They do what they do for love of the game not for any financial gain. My cousin is a referee in Britain and he gets paid in line with what they get here. 40 pounds to be in the middle and 20 pounds to be the lino. I know that he officiates more games than any of our officials here as he sometimes is doing 12 in a week in one guise or another. he loves the game and was never any good at playing it but found he could stay involved etc by reffing.

More training and assessments would definitely help but those are done at a provincial level as they are the ones who certify the officials and do all the training etc

We all have a whine at the refs from time to time. there are some we dont get along with but are excellent officials and some we get along with but think are terrible officials. They have bad days as do us as players and coaches.

It would be great if all officials were perfect and got every call right but that would take all the fun and randomness of the sport out of it. a lot of decisions in the end are not black and white like in and out in tennis but require quick decisions which arent always correct in one of the teams minds but are what the ref saw and called. I wish some refs were more communicative during the game but overall i think they do a good job in the difficult position they are in. We had a game a few weeks ago where we saw a foul, wasnt called and the other team scored. the ball was going back to half and the ref apologized and said he missed it and got it wrong. i thought that was excellent refereeing even if it cost us a goal.

i think the refereeing standard has actually gotten better over all the time i have been involved in adult soccer. I expect it to continue to do so.

Thank you for your thoughtful reply. It is appreciated.

1) I think that we can agree that more assessment and training might help. Perhaps we can suggest that league pays for an extra assessment to be done by BC soccer and that a minimum standard is required to be at each level.

2) We might disagree with the issue of not being workers. I might tend to think that viewing them as "volunteers" and that they do it for the "love of the game" justifies their exploitation. For instance, the National Labor Relations Board recognizes them as workers. They can get unionized in North America. Their actions do great revenue and profit for any organization; thus, they are workers.
My sense is that when they deduct gas, clothing, travel time and preparation, and report preparation; it might be like a $10 an hour wage or even less.

In fact, I might tend to think that viewing them this way also makes them diminish their performance. If I am a volunteer, then you can not expect or put high demands on me.

3) Although cross country comparisons might be interesting, they can be misleading. The costs of gas, travelling, and foregone wages are different from region to region, and also the revenue that they generate is different. Remember that the VMSL has accumulated quite a bit of cash over the years. It is not like they are struggling.

 

[bandcamp]

Do the refs declare income on their tax returns?

Ha! Call the CRA...oh right @Soccer Coach already did

 

[robj]

My only bitch with the refs and the only time I question them, which is not many cause let's face it they are human and make mistakes is when there is intent to injury by a player. Part of a refs job is making sure players are safe on the pitch. I know sometimes they don't see it but when I do lose my shite and it's not often I expect the refs to be a little more understanding that I am looking after the interest of my players and that's it. I do think the refs at the Prem level are doing well there is always room for improvement but overall no bitching from me. Let's face it some of us are too hard on the refs at times over the stupid shite so I get it when a ref loses their patience.

 

[Soccer Coach]

Ha! Call the CRA...oh right @Soccer Coach already did

My only bitch with the refs and the only time I question them, which is not many cause let's face it they are human and make mistakes is when there is intent to injury by a player. Part of a refs job is making sure players are safe on the pitch. I know sometimes they don't see it but when I do lose my shite and it's not often I expect the refs to be a little more understanding that I am looking after the interest of my players and that's it. I do think the refs at the Prem level are doing well there is always room for improvement but overall no bitching from me. Let's face it some of us are too hard on the refs at times over the stupid shite so I get it when a ref loses their patience.

I concur with you. I will try to make a note when communicating with the league and at the AGM. I think that at Premier you usually get the better referees.

 

[akslop]

I concur with you. I will try to make a note when communicating with the league and at the AGM. I think that at Premier you usually get the better referees.

Posting in the correct thread = progress

 

[Dude]

I've been saying forever that I think a simple increase in remuneration would do wonders for improving the officiating. Not by much, but enough to get more kids out, because that is the key. We need more kids to increase the eventual talent pool of refs.

We also need behavior training for adults.

I will tell you this: I- in no way- will want my daughter becoming a ref. In the end, her decision. She has taken the training, but I made our who girls squad take the training as a way of helping them understand the game on the officiating level. I think two of the 17 are actually refereeing matches.

 

[Gurps]

Great thinking @Dude this way they have their own money to buy their own ice cream. Win win.

 

[Dude]

LOL.

It'll save me a bomb!

 

[Soccer Coach]

I've been saying forever that I think a simple increase in remuneration would do wonders for improving the officiating. Not by much, but enough to get more kids out, because that is the key. We need more kids to increase the eventual talent pool of refs.

We also need behavior training for adults.

I will tell you this: I- in no way- will want my daughter becoming a ref. In the end, her decision. She has taken the training, but I made our who girls squad take the training as a way of helping them understand the game on the officiating level. I think two of the 17 are actually refereeing matches.

Thank you Dude.
Would you mind coming up with a number?
I am respectfully asking for your input.
Premier: $150?
Division 1: $125?
Division 2 to 3: $100?

guys, please kindly give some specific numbers that YOU think would be enough to attract and encourage better refereeing.

 

[machel]

Yes, increase the pay for refs and I'll finally get started on my reffing career

 

[DeltaDodger]

Thank you Dude.
Would you mind coming up with a number?
I am respectfully asking for your input.
Premier: $150?
Division 1: $125?
Division 2 to 3: $100?

guys, please kindly give some specific numbers that YOU think would be enough to attract and encourage better refereeing.

Giving refs more for adult soccer doesnt really help the issue of improvement if i understand what Dude is meaning correctly.
The talent pool of refs starts in youth and that is where you need to get it started with better renumeration so you may get better quality youths out who eventually stick with it and get into reffing adults. (fun if you read this in joe pesci accent from My cousin vinny too )

the talent pool we have of referees is what it is. Paying more money isnt going to have better referees fall from the sky.

This needs to start with the clubs wanting to be behind this as they are the ones in the end that will be paying for the extra costs in fees.
Going to the AGM and requesting this all fine and dandy but to think it would have any chance of going anywhere at a first go is ridiculous.

The conversation can start there but this will take time.

 

[Soccer Coach]

Giving refs more for adult soccer doesnt really help the issue of improvement if i understand what Dude is meaning correctly.
The talent pool of refs starts in youth and that is where you need to get it started with better renumeration so you may get better quality youths out who eventually stick with it and get into reffing adults. (fun if you read this in joe pesci accent from My cousin vinny too )

the talent pool we have of referees is what it is. Paying more money isnt going to have better referees fall from the sky.

This needs to start with the clubs wanting to be behind this as they are the ones in the end that will be paying for the extra costs in fees.
Going to the AGM and requesting this all fine and dandy but to think it would have any chance of going anywhere at a first go is ridiculous.

The conversation can start there but this will take time.

Thank you.
This might be the case, but I also know of very good referees who are not refereeing because they rather do something else.
The candidates program seems to have some decent referees, but not all of them come to the VMSL.
As for the change, do not worry. I understand that this is a long process. We are up against an existing structure within the VMSL who has not prioritized refereeing. I will not change overnight. But hopefully, we can increase awareness and communications. Changes start somewhere.

 

[Canucks4Ever]

Problem here is a classic supply and demand situation IMO...

The VMSL has upwards of 150 teams, that's 75 games that need referees each week, of which 20+ require assistants. You have the same in the FVSL weekly and then you add the Burnaby League and the Richmond League and the North Shore League, etc. That's before we factor in the youth leagues! Without referees these games are not played, obviously, so a situation is created where demand out strips supply. As much as you would like to cut these handful of poor officials loose, you can't, because you need them.

I had an interesting discussion with Reuben about this because he is now in charge of refereeing and scheduling in Langley I believe and he was bemoaning the fact that it is so difficult to develop young referees because they have limited availability where as some more senior referees (perhaps too "senior" ) are much more available. Everybody wants the "good" games and you want to give them to younger referees to help them develop, but you have to keep the old referees happy because you need them and their availability. Nobody wants to referee Metro Ford Lupi kicking the crap out of some last place team, but somebody has to do it. So problem one is that: supply and demand.

In that sense, if anything referees are OVERPAID, I'm sure we can all think of a guy or two who just isn't earning it at all. Which is the biggest obstacle to increasing the compensation. Do referees deserve more? Yes absolutely, but only the ones that are earning it. The problem is still the supply and demand issue: paying more isn't going to weed out the bad officials, we still need them in order to facilitate the sheer volume of games we have. If you give them a raise you will have teams feeling even more robbed when the guy they used to pay $70 to do a shite job is still turning up, but now they are paying him $100+.

I say all this AS AN ACTIVE REFEREE. There needs to be a standards based system (ie if you want to be on the Prem list you have to be evaluated and make a consistent level) but unfortunately the leagues don't have that kind of leverage. They NEED the refs.

Lots more I could get into, like the number of games guys ref (if you are doing your third game of the day, chances are you aren't as sharp as you were for game one), but I'll leave it there for now.

 

[Dude]

So....supply and demand.....

In any professional field or trade, what is the first thing industry does to attract more talent?

Second thing?

Improve pay, and improve benefits / work conditions.

Guys are abusing the system because they can. They know the ref pool is small, so they are able to stick their hand up the muppet's backside.

You need more youth picking up a whistle, then you need them to stick around.

More pay. Better benefits and conditions.