Regional Tier 3 League

[akslop]

ps. and before you start to question, why I mentioned China, please remember that China and its people play better and know more about the game than Canadians.

China population 1.357 billion Rank 81 ( does not include the 500,000 elderly that go missing every year or families with more than 1 child)
Canada population 35 million Rank 121

Maybe They know more interms of how to make a soccer ball is what u meant?

 

[akslop]

Try to get those people to pay, that's the problem.
Friends & Family will support their kids, but the amount of money to watch them play, if you have a family of 3-4 watching the cost adds up & they won't come.
Another problem is the stadium, most stadiums have a track, where people can walk or run around. If there is a game on, how do you stop them? You can't charge them.
These are problems that need to be looked at.
I've experienced this in PDL, municipalities won't stop "joggers" unless you pay for a "closed stadium" which will cost a fortune.
If the league is going to succeed, they have to be aware of these problems & have a marketing strategy to attract fans.
I'm not saying it can't happen, but it has to be thought out properly.
Thoughts???.

I dont think your ever going to over come consistency in this region. Our back yard offers to many other options to establish a loyal following at this level. Spring/Summer around here changes all of us. We are shut in during the rain/snow seasons then first sign of a flower blooming we are out to catch up and enjoy where we live doing other things. I'd support it but not every weekend and I think thats what you will find with most. Sure you will get a small group that will make it a priority but I dont see it being enough to provide stability. Then eventually the novelty will wear off like it does with what seems like every thing else we try to make permanent here.

Its true we are an event Region. Olympics, Fire works, World Juniors, Womens world cup, Nations cup. All novelties that we support. Make something permanent here and we get bored quick eventually finding some thing else until that to becomes stale.

Props to trying new things because clearly current structure isn't working but I just dont see It lasting long Term. Nothing against the product itself its just who we are.

 

[Dude]

@Soccer Coach, I don't look at this as a business enterprise at all, quite the opposite. I look at this as a social endeavor, and because it is a social endeavor, the amount of stakeholders is vastly larger, and the amount of barriers to entry also huge. If it were entirely a business venture, and you had some philanthropists willing to finance the thing for, say, 15 years to allow it to get it's legs, complete w/ full budgets, then this would be easy.

I always, ALWAYS look at the budget side to these things. It's in my nature. If "we" as a community want to explore this, then the budget needs to be vetted inside-out-and-backwards.

 

[Dude]

Try to get those people to pay, that's the problem.
Friends & Family will support their kids, but the amount of money to watch them play, if you have a family of 3-4 watching the cost adds up & they won't come.
Another problem is the stadium, most stadiums have a track, where people can walk or run around. If there is a game on, how do you stop them? You can't charge them.
These are problems that need to be looked at.
I've experienced this in PDL, municipalities won't stop "joggers" unless you pay for a "closed stadium" which will cost a fortune.
If the league is going to succeed, they have to be aware of these problems & have a marketing strategy to attract fans.
I'm not saying it can't happen, but it has to be thought out properly.
Thoughts???.

Jigsaw...I think that's the bone of contention in the budget. If you have a minute, open it up and have a look. They do seem to have accounted for closed stadium costs, so that's at least been addressed. They have allowed for $8000.00 in game day costs over and above other costs, and that seems to me to be nothing better than a "Misc." line in the plan. That said, it's a big one, and it eats up ~12% of the budget. What's it for?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not opposed to the budget, I just want more clarity to fully understand it. It seems to me that a lot of details to make this a "Professional" environment have been allotted.

 

[LION]

Yes. And the budget is one I can't get over. 70k and the clubs get what in return?
If they can't sell on players, what is the benefit for the club?

Jigsaw, I wasn't thinking of having people pay to see this level of soccer. You are right. That would be really hard to manage. And if it was pay to view maybe $5 a ticket or something extremely low cost. So you have the chance for soccer families of the club to come support.
But there is more value in creating the culture and not charging friends, family and fans to watch tier 3 soccer. Let the jogger jog!

Polska, the thing is there is families investing thousands and committing 100% now to HPL during the spring summer. Both boys and girls side of it. 14 teams per club, and I believe 8 HPL franchises right now. So there are people who already commit to soccer from 13 years old onwards every spring and summer 100%.

Might take years to build. 3-5 years, but if you build it, they will come.
These young HPL players at age 13-16 and their families should be your target market.
They are already invested financially and time wise. The market is there. not saying every weekend they would be there and wouldn't miss a match, but if you market it properly in your community and youth clubs it could bring people out.
We might be talking two different things though.
As when I say this I would see it working for free for the club members to come watch the clubs first team/tier 3 team.
You have to start somewhere. It's easy to come up with excuses. That is the Canadian soccer mind. It's Canada. We suck.
I'm over it. If we all keep thinking and talking like that we will never get anywhere.

 

[bandcamp]

I don't see this league being played in stadiums. It's HPL graduated. Think Trillium.

 

[Dude]

I dont think your ever going to over come consistency in this region. Our back yard offers to many other options to establish a loyal following at this level. Spring/Summer around here changes all of us. We are shut in during the rain/snow seasons then first sign of a flower blooming we are out to catch up and enjoy where we live doing other things. I'd support it but not every weekend and I think thats what you will find with most. Sure you will get a small group that will make it a priority but I dont see it being enough to provide stability. Then eventually the novelty will wear off like it does with what seems like every thing else we try to make permanent here.

Its true we are an event Region. Olympics, Fire works, World Juniors, Womens world cup, Nations cup. All novelties that we support. Make something permanent here and we get bored quick eventually finding some thing else until that to becomes stale.

Props to trying new things because clearly current structure isn't working but I just dont see It lasting long Term. Nothing against the product itself its just who we are.

My last thought...for this hour, anyhow...

I 100% agree with you and I am a perfect example of someone who would not be able to be relied upon for consistent support. Hell, I live and die by the Caps, but can't be fcuked to make it to more than a couple of matches a year. I simply value my time on the mountain(s) or in the water more.

Even so, I don't think we can let doubts and negativity stand in the way. If the league were to say establish a fun, and put in place a strong treasurer and system of fund distribution (i.e.: more than one name on the account, and beyond that, more than one name able to access it to watch dog it), I'm sure people like me, Lion, Polska, the list goes on and on in this board, that would kick in $100, or $200, or whatever as a charitable donation. Setting up as a charity is something that can be done here. If you are lucky enough to get at guys like @Rangerforever or @kurgan , the possibilities are endless. Those guys shoot out a $1000 bill every time they sneeze, or dig around under the cushions for change, FFS.

Smilie emoticom.

Fundraising is a challenging task, but that is why they have posted for a General Manager, that will be that person's full time gig, to set up system such as fundraising endeavors, and to collaborate an army to do so.

I am for sure of the opinion that where there is a will, there is a way. The numbers are here, huge registration numbers, so many families involved at highly competitive levels, and a lot of those families have some money they would shoot towards a fund to get this up and going.

So...count me as optimistic, and hoping that more information is forthcoming.

 

[Dude]

Yes. And the budget is one I can't get over. 70k and the clubs get what in return?
If they can't sell on players, what is the benefit for the club?

Jigsaw, I wasn't thinking of having people pay to see this level of soccer. You are right. That would be really hard to manage. And if it was pay to view maybe $5 a ticket or something extremely low cost. So you have the chance for soccer families of the club to come support.
But there is more value in creating the culture and not charging friends, family and fans to watch tier 3 soccer. Let the jogger jog!

Polska, the thing is there is families investing thousands and committing 100% now to HPL during the spring summer. Both boys and girls side of it. 14 teams per club, and I believe 8 HPL franchises right now. So there are people who already commit to soccer from 13 years old onwards every spring and summer 100%.

Might take years to build. 3-5 years, but if you build it, they will come.
These young HPL players at age 13-16 and their families should be your target market.
They are already invested financially and time wise. The market is there. not saying every weekend they would be there and wouldn't miss a match, but if you market it properly in your community and youth clubs it could bring people out.
We might be talking two different things though.
As when I say this I would see it working for free for the club members to come watch the clubs first team/tier 3 team.
You have to start somewhere. It's easy to come up with excuses. That is the Canadian soccer mind. It's Canada. We suck.
I'm over it. If we all keep thinking and talking like that we will never get anywhere.

I lied.

My last thought for this hour, as the Apocalypse begins South of our border...

The document calls for a General Manager, one with passion, energy, and who can see the full picture, and paint it. A individual who is passionate about this sport, who has roots in the game (maybe as a high caliber player and coach at the amateur level?), who is respected in the community, who has a strong background in marketing and sales, as well as people management. Someone who has already run events and brought communities together. Above all, someone who has energy and enthusiasm to burn, and who hasn't already created a legion of enemies or dissenters.

I wonder if such a person exists in the footballing community. @LION, can you think of anyone?

Winkie emoticom

 

[akslop]

My last thought...for this hour, anyhow...

I 100% agree with you and I am a perfect example of someone who would not be able to be relied upon for consistent support. Hell, I live and die by the Caps, but can't be fcuked to make it to more than a couple of matches a year. I simply value my time on the mountain(s) or in the water more.

Even so, I don't think we can let doubts and negativity stand in the way. If the league were to say establish a fun, and put in place a strong treasurer and system of fund distribution (i.e.: more than one name on the account, and beyond that, more than one name able to access it to watch dog it), I'm sure people like me, Lion, Polska, the list goes on and on in this board, that would kick in $100, or $200, or whatever as a charitable donation. Setting up as a charity is something that can be done here. If you are lucky enough to get at guys like @Rangerforever or @kurgan , the possibilities are endless. Those guys shoot out a $100 bill every time they sneeze, or dig around under the cushions for change, FFS.

Smilie emoticom.

Fundraising is a challenging task, but that is why they have posted for a General Manager, that will be that person's full time gig, to set up system such as fundraising endeavors, and to collaborate an army to do so.

I am for sure of the opinion that where there is a will, there is a way. The numbers are here, huge registration numbers, so many families involved at highly competitive levels, and a lot of those families have some money they would shoot towards a fund to get this up and going.

So...count me as optimistic, and hoping that more information is forthcoming.

I hear ya. In no way do I want my comments to be taken Negatively. I hope this does succeed with the right ingredients and proper formula. Some one has to play Trump here and say it like it is from where it stands right now.

Make soccer great again!

 

[Soccer Coach]

So tap into China good, tap into Saudi bad.

I am glad that you mentioned because I was going to talk about our friends from Rinos and their dealings with the Saudi cash flows. However, I am trying to keep peaceful relationships with my friends from Rinos.

However, there are three differences.
First, the foreign Chinese wealthy population is making a significant long term investment in Vancouver. I imagine that you are aware that they are buying and owning most of the prime real state in Vancouver, and they are also starting large business enterprises. The forecast is that this will continue.

Second, the population numbers are rapidly increasing. In Richmond, the population is more than 50%, and in the rest of lower mainland is over 20%. This is a huge possible fan base. Also the popularity of the sport is expanding with the success of the Super Chinese Soccer League.

Third, there is an already historical link between Canadians of Chinese origin of the sports. For decades, they have had an operated nice soccer leagues at the margins of the mainstream leagues. I really do not understand why BC Soccer and the VMSL have not made efforts to integrate them. It is not like they are not part the history of soccer in Vancouver.

"The Chinese Students Soccer team was a Vancouver soccer team established in 1920. It was an illustrious team that used skill and speed to win the Brunswick Cup in 1925, Iroquois Cup in 1926, the Wednesday League Cup in 1931, the Mainland Cup in 1933, and the Spalding Cup in 1937 and 1939. Vancouver’s Chinatown gambling dens would shut down on the days that the team played as everyone, two to three thousand people, would attend the games to cheer on their hometown heroes. Players like Quene Yip, Dock Yip, William Lore, and Tong Louie would come home to celebrations and parades after a victory on the soccer field. These soccer games were significant because during most of the team’s lifetime, Canada’s Exclusion Act (1923-1947) was in effect. Essentially, no Chinese could enter Canada during these years, but through soccer, these men transcended the prejudices and racial boundaries of the time: Chinese and Whites were equals on the playing field. In existence until 1939, the Chinese Students Soccer team’s sports accomplishments and its contribution toward changing the attitudes between different cultural groups reveal an important and downplayed part of multifaceted Canadian history."

The Saudis do not have the numbers, similar investments, and history in Vancouver. However, having said this I thought that this would be a good opportunity for the Rinos camp to come clean with the funding from Prince Al-waleed. I am sure that they can come up with the $75,000 and the million of so requirement as insurance of viability. Blaise is a good coach and I think that his players would fit well in this league.
It would be a good inclusion to have the Rino Saudi team there and it would provide some regulation to their practices (i.e. they would be discouraged from putting on the field 14 year olds at Premier games and go through significant changes of roster). It would be a win/win situation. So I hope that Rinos put an application.

 

[dezza]

The Chinese League is already integrated with the Richmond Adult Soccer Association (RASA).

This happened a few years ago, and originally there were 8 Chinese teams, but looking at the teams in RASA it looks like they're maybe down to 5 continuing to operate.

The remaining teams in the Chinese League are Over 40 and Over 50 age group teams, which do not exist in RASA.

 

[Dude]

@Soccer Coach...

This is not a VMSL thread or issue. This is a new entity that, yes, will likely involve many of the same clubs around the VMSL, FVSL, and VISL, but it is NOT a VMSL issue, so can we get beyond that? If you want to discuss the VMSL and all their failings, start a thread for that.

You keep stating that you do not understand why the VMSL doesn’t do this, or doesn’t do that. You are talking about endeavors that require at least one person to invest a huge amount of time managing. Yes, you identified that the two elderly gents are on their last legs. Not surprising that they don’t have the energy to essentially work full time on promoting the league. You members want change? You all have a vote. Make it happen. Earmark the funds necessary to hire someone who can actually take this on full time. You have my best wishes in that regard. That being said, you should know that William Azzie rescued your league in ~1996/97 ish from collapse when the former treasurer took off with some $300K, robing the VMSL blind. That league owes the man a dept of respect and gratitude.

So…possible to keep the somewhat close to the topic at hand?

 

[Soccer Coach]

The Chinese League is already integrated with the Richmond Adult Soccer Association (RASA).

This happened a few years ago, and originally there were 8 Chinese teams, but looking at the teams in RASA it looks like they're maybe down to 5 continuing to operate.

The remaining teams in the Chinese League are Over 40 and Over 50 age group teams, which do not exist in RASA.

Thus, according to you, there are only 5 Chinese operated teams in the lower mainland. ....Interesting... perhaps they are playing somewhere else and you do not know it.

 

[Dude]

Moderator?

 

[Soccer Coach]

Moderator?

oh... I see... appealing once again to censorship. Most of the comments are about the proposed league and related effects on other leagues and communities. Funny how some people can not organize their thoughts in an organic manner and can not see the symbiotic relationships between organizations and groups of people. This is one of your limitations @Dude, you that everything should be isolated for examination and seeing through the business mind. This thinking is what has made impossible the set up of successful teams and leagues (both amateur and professional).

 

[Dude]

It's not censorship, you are WAYYYY off topic, as always.

Create another thread, title it appropriately, and have at it. Write to your heart's delight, but this is not a VMSL topic.

If you want to write about how great it would be to have the Chinese community involved in this new TierIII league, fine. If you want to write about how you'd like a Saudi club entered, or not, also great. But don't derail what has become a good discussion topic with more bullshit about the VMSL. It's not about the VMSL.

Fcuk me, do you ever learn?

 

[Dude]

This thinking is what has made impossible the set up of successful teams and leagues (both amateur and professional).

Really? People wanting to keep you on topic has made it impossible to set-up successful teams and leagues? Really?

Just like coaches treating little girls to ice cream after games has lead to Canada's inability of the men's team to quality for a World Cup?

I thought you were progressing, but the truth remains,

You are an idiot.
You are an idiot.
You are an idiot.

Try to stay relevant.

 

[Soccer Coach]

and now who is clearly going off topic??

 

[Dude]

Nice job, I've now lost interest in this thread.

 

[Canucks4Ever]

I've been waiting to chime in for a couple of days and you guys have hit most of the same things I would bring up.

Let's keep this on topic, though I do have to mention the fact that I love the dripping hypocrisy that is a guy who ardently opposes drinking in dressing rooms after a match is in love with the concept of a beer garden. I really don't want to belabor the point, but I couldn't let that one pass . Now, on to business.

Some quick hitters to add to the discussion:

The way I read this it is heavily linked to HPL. It fits with the "life cycle" that BC Soccer wants to create for these players.

When you look at the "potential markets" that the document outlines it's clear that BC Soccer would like franchises spread throughout the Province as they mention billeting, etc. Basically, I think the ideal model would be very similar to that of the BCHL. The key to this league's success will be owners who are committed enough to the growth of this sport in this country that they are willing to absorb losses annually for the foreseeable future. When you look at the projections even a "moderately" successful team is taking a loss and that's assuming what I would suggest are fairly optimistic merchandise, etc. revenues for a league with no brand recognition at the moment.

I hope that this league takes the "professional" aspect seriously. All the games should be played in a stadium or stadium like environment. Sorry, no "Trillium" or the like. Venues like this do exist, there's the obvious ones like Swanguard, UBC, UVIC and Coquitlam Town Centre. TRU has a beautiful facility in Kamloops, Chilliwack has a venue, there's Mcleod in Langley and Newton Athletic has the grandstand they put in back in the Kwantlen days. If Coastal/White Rock wants to put a bid in they would IMO have to create a stadium-like venue. There's the grass field in the middle of the track by the baseball diamonds that is a sort of natural amphitheater which could be converted in a stadium-like setting. Problem being that the dressing rooms are across the street. If you want to have a "amateur league run professionally" then you need to commit to the PROFESSIONAL aspect and games on a field at SSAP aren't going to cut it, irrespective of how many tents and banners you put up. By the way I am in by no means trying to pick on Coastal here, they were just the first example I could think of to illustrate my point. In fact most potential franchise hosts would likely be in a similar venue conundrum.

My point is, if you want professional, then you have to act professional and that starts with the perception of the league by both the players and the local community. It may seem like just a trivial thing, but a "stadium" is just one of the many little things that add up to give a league a professional vibe. Ball kids, "Timbits" soccer games at half time, etc., etc. If you have guys getting this one week in Kamloops and then the next week they are changing on the side of the field in Nanaimo and then the next week they are sharing a dressing room with the other team at Andy Livingston your amateur league run professionally becomes very amateur very quickly.

Back to the finances. I developed many a business plan during my undergraduate and if I walked into a presentation with numbers like that I would have been absolutely eviscerated. No appendices to explain their numbers?? Honestly, what on Earth are they based on?? Is that a realistic travel budget? Who would know? Did they investigate what it costs to charter a bus? How about the concession numbers? I would think it would be more realistic to think that it might even COST the team to get food trucks to come to these venues; at best maybe a break even scenario where the vendors come for free but keep their revenues or maybe pay a contingency over a certain dollar amount. What's the industry standard on this? Likely easy enough to find out via a phone call or two and then you could include information on how you reached these numbers. Safe to say I would suggest that they are overestimating their revenues and underestimating their costs.

On the matter of finances, surely these clubs will be entitled to a sell on fee for players. Now this get's sticky when you factor in the college eligibility of the players and any potential MLS Super Draft implications (I do not know what, if any, remuneration teams receive for having a player drafted). The overarching point though is if you allow a team to benefit monetarily from developing players, they will presumably be motivated to continue to do this and thus reinvest in their coaching and development. This is how it works, this is how it grows.

On to implications for other leagues. I think we can all agree this completely torpedoes PCSL and will go toe to toe with the PDL. As many have mentioned VMSL/FVSL/VISL will all continue given that they are Winter leagues and that this new league is designed to be U23. Perhaps loan deals and partnerships can be established to keep these players playing through the winter, but overall the adult leagues will continue be where players go once they have exhausted their professional opportunities. The most interesting affects may be on the College/University league, can these two co-exist? Sounds like they will be fighting for the same player pool. Can players do both? Certainly a question worth asking.

As for the adult leagues, I am not sure where the idea that "the VMSL (etc.) is a stepping stone" concept came from, these leagues are very much the "grave" part of the "cradle to grave" life cycle. Still some pretty good footy at the open level and I would think that the adult leagues actually stand to benefit from players being developed by this new league given once they are beyond U23 they will in all likelihood continue playing.

Does the VMSL (etc.) need to create more community involvement? Yes. Do we need more Cup Day-like events? Yes. Double headers at Trillium with a beer garden? Yes. VMSL/FVSL merger? Yes. I have personally voiced my opinions on this with the VMSL board. The past is the past and the leadership in these leagues is turning over, getting new blood and slowly becoming more open to new ideas. Not a topic for this thread, but worth mentioning. Also, as an aside, home game times are picked by the teams not the league, just for the record...

Lastly, I think we all agree that there is no money to be made in this. 100% it will take community involvement, perhaps some subsidies and lots of committed leadership. There are many more lucrative business ventures that investors could put there money into, but lets hope at least a handful believe that it's worth investing in the future of soccer in this country.

To wrap this up, for now at least, this proposed league is absolutely a step in the right direction for soccer in Canada and in BC. It will have bumps and bruises and may ultimately go tits-up in the end, but BC Soccer appears bound and determined to go ahead with it and power to them. Hopefully it can grow into a similarly productive league to the Ontario league that has churned out some exciting prospects.