TSS commencing an action against the BCSA

southsloper

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southsloper

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To reset: UBC was used as an example because they’re holding an evaluation camp (open and not invite-only), they’re a big university, my son plays in the league who’s directive is to feed college and university soccer programs, and neither the league nor the club notified the players/parents of the camp. That’s all. Seems bush league to me and is a real eye opener now that my son is in grade 11 and this is the year the schools look at these kids...it’s kind of a big year don’t you think? More so than ANY other year of youth soccer they play.
Your club may have notified only it's female teams/coaches/players? Because this weekends UBC ID camp is for Women...

 

ThiKu

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It’s not really about high school soccer. It‘s about high school sports. Hard to stop a season for the whole school year :) From what I’m seeing, these HPL players are playing all sorts of high school sports. My son plays soccer and rugby at school.
I was just suggesting the league pause during school soccer.
 

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You've got to be kidding.
You may want to be a tad more specific about what your BS complaint is with what I said? You don't think league should pause so kids can play HS soccer? You think playing too much is healthy for kids? (my hammy disagrees with you - as does all the kids who quit soccer after u18 BCSPL because they are burned out), or that I want kids to play HS soccer? Which one of these sensible suggestions upsets you?

But sorry, will take tongue out of cheek. You were likely referring to when I say "too much organized..." I am referring to when kids play league (BCSPL or metro) and HS at same time and end up playing 1 game 1 practice in same day a few times a week, 3-4 games in one day twice on a weekend etc. Have heard of kids playing 5 games in 1 day. But ok, you can argue this is good for kids. You'd be wrong, but you can argue it. To each their own.
 

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I don’t see how kids could be burnt out. I mean they start rep at “7” years old. My son in fact will still be 6 when it begins. They call it “development” or “prospects” and it’s about getting the “community” level kids more touches. All the same fees but wait in small print there is a $200+ development fee on top of your $325 fee. Not rep, not rep.

You want little children to be focused and perform from 7-20. How many kids are like that honestly. For me the problem begins right there. There are many other ways to divide skill groups while still letting them all hang with their friends and be kids while Fart jokes are still top priority.
 

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I don’t see how kids could be burnt out. I mean they start rep at “7” years old. My son in fact will still be 6 when it begins. They call it “development” or “prospects” and it’s about getting the “community” level kids more touches. All the same fees but wait in small print there is a $200+ development fee on top of your $325 fee. Not rep, not rep.

You want little children to be focused and perform from 7-20. How many kids are like that honestly. For me the problem begins right there. There are many other ways to divide skill groups while still letting them all hang with their friends and be kids while Fart jokes are still top priority.
Yep this is what I have a laugh at. FFS at 6/7, some kids are still getting distracted by butterflies or picking dandelions. By 10/12 those same kids aren’t so distracted and turning into really good athletes, but have already been weeded out, the way out “system” works in reality, that is.
 

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The $50 (individual registration) camp you may have found an older UBC soccer ID camp listing, there's only one this weekend, and it's for Women...

https://camps.ubc.ca/academy-programs/14753/ (Women's ID Camp, cost $100 individual/$900 team)

https://camps.ubc.ca/academy-programs (list of camps)
Well I don’t quite know what to say to you on this except there were about a fifty 2003 year boys at UBC last night, and again today, for the eval camp. No girls in sight :)
 
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southsloper

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Well I don’t quite know what to say to you on this except there were about a fifty 2003 year boys at UBC last night, and again today, for the eval camp. No girls in sight :)
Well -- could be that there are 2 different soccer "things" happening out at UBC. The USports Women's ID camp was the only thing I could find online. That event is at Thunderbird Stadium.

What eval event & venue are the boys at?
 
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southsloper

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Men’s varsity soccer ID camp for 2003 born boys. Scroll back and you’ll see what the chatter is about.
I've scanned the entire thread actually, came to look for discussions about BCSPL starting up, etc. Interesting discussions here :)

Lack of info is par for the course sometimes -- darned if I can find info about UBC Varsity soccer tryouts/evals.

Good luck to your son if he's particpating.
 
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You may want to be a tad more specific about what your BS complaint is with what I said? You don't think league should pause so kids can play HS soccer? You think playing too much is healthy for kids? (my hammy disagrees with you - as does all the kids who quit soccer after u18 BCSPL because they are burned out), or that I want kids to play HS soccer? Which one of these sensible suggestions upsets you?

But sorry, will take tongue out of cheek. You were likely referring to when I say "too much organized..." I am referring to when kids play league (BCSPL or metro) and HS at same time and end up playing 1 game 1 practice in same day a few times a week, 3-4 games in one day twice on a weekend etc. Have heard of kids playing 5 games in 1 day. But ok, you can argue this is good for kids. You'd be wrong, but you can argue it. To each their own.
I can't tell from the above what your point is, or what I said that you're disagreeing with.

High school soccer isn't at level and is a net-negative, in my view, having seen my infirmary during the BCSPL season.

As a separate point, starting rep at u7 tells you all you need to know about why our youth development is so fcuked up...
 
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I can't tell from the above what your point is, or what I said that you're disagreeing with.

High school soccer isn't at level and is a net-negative, in my view, having seen my infirmary during the BCSPL season.

As a separate point, starting rep at u7 tells you all you need to know about why our youth development is so fcuked up...
I think the point is this: is it time to start questioning if we have this wrong? Like, really, really wrong?

My big takeaway from this is the number of kids burning out. It's a model that, frankly, works well in hockey, but it's not something we can translate to footy.

There are way too many differences between the sports, but simply put, in Hockey Canada owns the top of the pyramid, and we own it with a combination of development, opportunity, and math. In hockey, the entry cost to play isn't as much a barrier because we have far more players registered in Canada than even the next highest country (I think Russia, and I believe the number is more than double last I saw. Can look it up I suppose). When you own the top in terms of performance, and own the top in terms of registrations, and own the top in terms of measurable KPIs, we can simply afford to burn through players.

We can afford to burn players out through the Tier 1 (CHL) or Tier 2 (Junior / BCJHL) system because of the opportunities both create. Canadian players are in demand (not so in footy). If a player flames out after 4 or 5 years of Major Junior, they get themselves a year of tuition and books at any university in Canada their grades will win them entrance to...then they can still play USports for fun. For Junior players, the major draw is NCAA, and of course itf they make it, they get a great education, more development, maybe an NHL career, maybe another pro league elsewhere. They can also come home and win a scholarship to play USports.

None of these pillars exist in footy. The world of footy doesn't value Canadians at the moment. We are still very much swimming upstream, so we need to identify better, develop better, and remove barriers of entry. Eventually have a small, dynamic class of players every year that can be shopped out. To do that, we need the best players, and better competition.

For the talented Canadian kids playing top level hockey, there is the big carrot of NHL, but you also have so many European leagues that value Canadian talent. A cousin of mine did it. Above average Uni player from Kamloops, played out of Deluth, drafted by the North Stars, didn't make it out of camp, had Italian heritage and went to Italy to play professionally. Long career there and Germany, played in 4 Olympics for Italy. Not too shabby for a guy that didn't make it big. This isn't a reality for the Canadian soccer player.

My dad actually asked me one, why doesn't soccer just run the high performance programs through the school system, like Basketball. I stopped and though, "Yeah, why not?" Is it too crazy to think that every high school could not have a junior varcity and varcity program, where every school has a TD to oversee the programs, and where the schools compete against each other in the same way basketball does? You could still have club footy for the players not able to make the grade. This way you can make sure no player falls through the cracks but gains in economic efficiency.

I know some schools have soccer academies- we have that at Whistler Secondary- where a great deal of their days and education is footy related. Could there not be 8-10 schools in the Province identified at academies, where the best players would get recruited to, where the costs to play would be heavily subsidized by the professional clubs in Canada? Have it run from grade 8 on? If there are 10 schools, could you not have them subsidized by professional clubs in Canada? Say, a WCFC school, TFC School, IFC, PFC, etc..?

It's a crazy, outside-the-box concept, but the way I see it is we've increased the number of programs, which waters down talent, and we've kept costs to enter high, which long term depletes the high performance pool (can't argue it, it's math & economics, it's a barrier not matter what the argument is), while at the same time, the carrots at the top have remained unchanged. All we've done is water down the HP Program and decrease the odds for BC Kids to make it, unless they get themselves an overseas schoolboy contact young and actually go over there to get their education in the game.
 
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It's not high school aged development that's the problem. It's starting a "pyramid" at age 5-6. We need to be coaching up 100% of the kids at that age and we just don't. Hockey already takes a ton of the best athletic talent in this country - we absolutely can't afford to self-cull in any way. And yet, we do.

The number of players that came to tryout at the Burnaby Selects, who had turned into athletic specimens but handled the ball like a grenade, was beyond frustrating. Someone decides they don't or won't have it at age 6 and they're written off. Karl Alzner was a silver player at Wesburn years ago when I had the team above his... think he might have been a decent player had he been properly trained (by someone much better than I) all the way through? He ended up good enough athlete to win a Stanley Cup, but soccer wrote him off long before that...

There's a "golden age" of coaching. Frankly, BCSPL age is usually too late. Not always - but usually. We need to coach the coaches and deliver a better product across the board at the 8-12 ages...
 

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This is so bang on it couldn’t be any more bang one.

See? Get you out of the legal office and you’re a pretty fcuking smart guy!
 
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ThiKu

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I don’t see how kids could be burnt out. I mean they start rep at “7” years old. My son in fact will still be 6 when it begins. They call it “development” or “prospects” and it’s about getting the “community” level kids more touches. All the same fees but wait in small print there is a $200+ development fee on top of your $325 fee. Not rep, not rep.

You want little children to be focused and perform from 7-20. How many kids are like that honestly. For me the problem begins right there. There are many other ways to divide skill groups while still letting them all hang with their friends and be kids while Fart jokes are still top priority.
The best player I ever coached didn't play organized soccer until about 9 or 10, and then it was on gravel with friends. Didn't play on a "proper" team until his teen years. His best training was outside on his own, for fun and for determination. This kid has reached a fantastic level and has a decent chance at playing professional. I hear ya man, I hear ya.
 

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It's not high school aged development that's the problem. It's starting a "pyramid" at age 5-6. We need to be coaching up 100% of the kids at that age and we just don't. Hockey already takes a ton of the best athletic talent in this country - we absolutely can't afford to self-cull in any way. And yet, we do.

The number of players that came to tryout at the Burnaby Selects, who had turned into athletic specimens but handled the ball like a grenade, was beyond frustrating. Someone decides they don't or won't have it at age 6 and they're written off. Karl Alzner was a silver player at Wesburn years ago when I had the team above his... think he might have been a decent player had he been properly trained (by someone much better than I) all the way through? He ended up good enough athlete to win a Stanley Cup, but soccer wrote him off long before that...

There's a "golden age" of coaching. Frankly, BCSPL age is usually too late. Not always - but usually. We need to coach the coaches and deliver a better product across the board at the 8-12 ages...
Thank you! Preach man, preach.

We need better coaches age 4-8, then a different set of top coaches age 8-12. I've been banging this drum for years. This focus on BCSPL and snagging "all the best coaches" is unbelievably short sighted. BCSPL is a league I support, no doubt. 8 teams is brilliant. Centralizing the top players and coaches in those age ranges is needed. But I always hoped/assumed it would be followed quite quickly by a coordinated effort to do something similar with the younger ages (much more regionalized of course - less driving the better at the younger ages) but it's clearly not going to happen.

When I say "better coaches age 4-8" I don't mean more organized structured training per se. Kids need to be outside with a ball in their back yard and with friends and parents. The problem is, this doesn't happen. So having access to some good coaching for the 1 or 2 practices a week at that age is also needed. ALL kids, not just a small group.

Here's the problem. Say a club agrees with this, and most/all do. They then sign up 50 kids, for example. But most likely only have 1 decent coach, one with experience, certifications, and the personality needed, and are available (most have other jobs and family commitments). So clubs put all 50 of those kids out there at the same time, same place. So this trained coach can only get to these kids once every 2 or 3 weeks, and not to their games, or rarely to their games.

Don't turn kids away. Sign up all 50. But then have 1 coach for all them means having them practice on different nights, or on same night but not at same time age-appropriate.

This seems so unbelievably obvious to me. But what do I know? (I have child-development education and work experience, among other relevant knowledge in allocating resources in a NFP....)
 
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ThiKu

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I think the point is this: is it time to start questioning if we have this wrong? Like, really, really wrong?

My big takeaway from this is the number of kids burning out. It's a model that, frankly, works well in hockey, but it's not something we can translate to footy.

There are way too many differences between the sports, but simply put, in Hockey Canada owns the top of the pyramid, and we own it with a combination of development, opportunity, and math. In hockey, the entry cost to play isn't as much a barrier because we have far more players registered in Canada than even the next highest country (I think Russia, and I believe the number is more than double last I saw. Can look it up I suppose). When you own the top in terms of performance, and own the top in terms of registrations, and own the top in terms of measurable KPIs, we can simply afford to burn through players.

We can afford to burn players out through the Tier 1 (CHL) or Tier 2 (Junior / BCJHL) system because of the opportunities both create. Canadian players are in demand (not so in footy). If a player flames out after 4 or 5 years of Major Junior, they get themselves a year of tuition and books at any university in Canada their grades will win them entrance to...then they can still play USports for fun. For Junior players, the major draw is NCAA, and of course itf they make it, they get a great education, more development, maybe an NHL career, maybe another pro league elsewhere. They can also come home and win a scholarship to play USports.

None of these pillars exist in footy. The world of footy doesn't value Canadians at the moment. We are still very much swimming upstream, so we need to identify better, develop better, and remove barriers of entry. Eventually have a small, dynamic class of players every year that can be shopped out. To do that, we need the best players, and better competition.

For the talented Canadian kids playing top level hockey, there is the big carrot of NHL, but you also have so many European leagues that value Canadian talent. A cousin of mine did it. Above average Uni player from Kamloops, played out of Deluth, drafted by the North Stars, didn't make it out of camp, had Italian heritage and went to Italy to play professionally. Long career there and Germany, played in 4 Olympics for Italy. Not too shabby for a guy that didn't make it big. This isn't a reality for the Canadian soccer player.

My dad actually asked me one, why doesn't soccer just run the high performance programs through the school system, like Basketball. I stopped and though, "Yeah, why not?" Is it too crazy to think that every high school could not have a junior varcity and varcity program, where every school has a TD to oversee the programs, and where the schools compete against each other in the same way basketball does? You could still have club footy for the players not able to make the grade. This way you can make sure no player falls through the cracks but gains in economic efficiency.

I know some schools have soccer academies- we have that at Whistler Secondary- where a great deal of their days and education is footy related. Could there not be 8-10 schools in the Province identified at academies, where the best players would get recruited to, where the costs to play would be heavily subsidized by the professional clubs in Canada? Have it run from grade 8 on? If there are 10 schools, could you not have them subsidized by professional clubs in Canada? Say, a WCFC school, TFC School, IFC, PFC, etc..?

It's a crazy, outside-the-box concept, but the way I see it is we've increased the number of programs, which waters down talent, and we've kept costs to enter high, which long term depletes the high performance pool (can't argue it, it's math & economics, it's a barrier not matter what the argument is), while at the same time, the carrots at the top have remained unchanged. All we've done is water down the HP Program and decrease the odds for BC Kids to make it, unless they get themselves an overseas schoolboy contact young and actually go over there to get their education in the game.
Well said!

The HS idea is definitely outside the box. I think too many kids wouldn't transfer to those schools, but your idea isn't a bad one.

I do agree with BCSA and BC High School Sports working hand in hand. I've suggested right here on this thread that the leagues pause during school play. Instead what happens is they fight with each other. My best guess is the problem is BC High School Sports does not have "soccer people" making decisions, so BCSA can't even get into a conversation about collaboration.

School academies are a good idea and do exist already. Same as happens with various other sports, including hockey and I think baseball, and some other sports. If they were to communicate, BCSA and BC High School (including middle school) could link together to create a program system that works for both, and most importantly works for the kids and their families. #dreaming at this point.
 
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Totally dreaming.

My dad’s point was, why doesn’t BCSA just take advantage of the infrastructure already in place?
Yeah you’d have transfer issues but if there only 10 academy schools competing against each other it’s essentially like HPL now. Like hockey, align kids with billet families if the kid is travelling a ways.

It’ll never happen, but fun to daydream.
 
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