Div 2 [VMSL Div. 2] Predictions, Results & Banter 2018/2019

dezza

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Sierra coach was the Shaheen coach back in their Div 1 days. Should be a tasty encounter!
 
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Strikers will clean up really well this year if they play the way they did against west coast.....they can play the grind it out soccer or the finesse too,,,,,,,,very nice to see a team that can do this.......I liked the ref. in this game....game could have blown up but if it were not for him the game could and would have got ugly real fast and turned into a rugby match...........but i am gonna go out opn alimb and pick them to win div.2 cup and the league......
 
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Canucks4Ever

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Quite the match it would seem in 2A this week between Strathcona and Snipers.

Looks like the game was abandoned with eight minutes left when FOUR Strathcona players were sent off; two for violent conduct and two for foul and abusive language. Looks like a pair of Snipers were booked at the same time, so one would infer that there was some sort of brawl-type incident. All this after Strathcona had pulled it back to 4-3 after being 4-0 down. Given that there were only eight minutes left to play and it would seem (based on the sanctions) that Strathcona were the instigators in whatever took place, presumably the league will let the result stand.

Any chance there is anyone out there who was at Livingston Friday and could offer some insight?

Good news for Strathcona's next few opponents as one assumes all four players will likely be facing multiple game bans...
 

Joe321

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We played Strikers last night.. They probably should have beat us but we managed to come back from 3-1 in the last 7 mins, the second coming in the 90th.
They're a great squad, real fun team to play, and good sportsmanship. Good luck, and hopefully you drop a few points along the way ;)
 

FC Red Star

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Does anyone know what actually happened here?
upload_2018-12-2_22-37-34.png
Is it true that the referee abandoned the game after Sierra's players protested Rangers' fourth goal? Originally, the score posted on VMSL web site was 4:4 then changed to 4:3 and a note that last 10 minutes will be rescheduled.

One of the VMSL rules:

Section 4 – Schedule

4.3. In the event that a match cannot continue through to full regulation time due to inclement weather or extenuating circumstances, it will resume within the next 24 hours (or some other date/time agreed upon by the competing teams and the VMSL) starting at the same minute that the match was originally suspended and with the same score, accumulation of cards (if there were any) and the same players that were listed on the teams’ rosters and were present at the game at the time it was suspended. The VMSL Board of Directors shall have discretionary powers to decide whether unfinished games are to be replayed or the game declared officially completed.

4.4. The VMSL Board of Directors may institute temporary rules to deal with interrupted schedules, determining which games must be played, where and under what conditions, and how points are to be awarded.

 

Macho Man

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Seven teams within four points of each other in Pool B and Hurricanes picking up a big scalp by unexpectedly beating 13th Legion. Rest of the season is going to be fascinating
 

soccer8

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2b is fair stronger than 2a. Very tight group in the b. Anyone noticed the referee are getting very strict and dishing out yellows and reds and all of a sudden abandoning games. I do realise that it is a difficult job they have but dishing out cards all over ther place makes teams worse.ref warned both teams at the weekend anything said to the ref is a straight red
 

Canucks4Ever

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Does anyone know what actually happened here?
View attachment 24072
Is it true that the referee abandoned the game after Sierra's players protested Rangers' fourth goal? Originally, the score posted on VMSL web site was 4:4 then changed to 4:3 and a note that last 10 minutes will be rescheduled.
Sources tell me that this is regarding a refereeing issue. The referee sent off the Sierra goalkeeper for handling a back pass; a clear misapplication of the laws of the game.

Sending off offenses clearly list:
...denying the opposing team a goal or an obvious goalscoring opportunity by deliberately handling the ball (this does not apply to a goalkeeper within his own penalty area)

Therefore, Sierra protested to have the red card rescinded and allow their goalkeeper to play in their next match. They also argued that the sending off, which was objectively incorrect, materially impacted the match. The game was tied from the ensuing indirect free kick that, perhaps, their goalkeeper could have saved. More so though, having only 10 men prevented them from having an equal opportunity to score further goals in the remaining time after the score was tied.

Other info of note, apparently this happened in another match a few weeks earlier and the VMSL has decided to replay the remainder of that match as well. I am not sure which division this is in; there are a couple of games listed as incomplete in Division 3 and others in MD2 and MD1. This particular game obviously has the potential for significant promotion implications.

Further, I believe that VanU appealed this decision (I am not sure through what mechanism as decisions on protests to the VMSL are supposed to be binding and, therefore, are only appealable to BC Soccer) so the VMSL BoD is, I am told, reviewing this further at their board meeting tonight, with the view to making a final decision.
 

FC Red Star

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Canucks4Ever,

Thanks for your detailed explanation. It is strange to me that VMSL BofD would administratively cancel Rangers' goal (they certainly have no right to do so); the reported score was 4:4; now it shows 4:3. Rangers are fighting to avoid relegation so that point would help their cause.
Based on your explanation it seems that the ref did not abandon the game (I heard that he abandoned the game after Sierre's protests but that may be incorrect information).
If anything, it would be more logical to replay the whole game because administrative cancellation of the goal scored does not make any sense whatsoever. You simply cannot, after the game was over, add or cancel goals in VMSL office.

An another note, I watched recently a game in which the referee acted like he did not see twice, not once but twice, the same defenseman clearing the ball by his hands in his penalty area - no penalty shot(s) and no cards for intentional ball handling. I guess this comes under ref's discretion to call it or not but then seeing now how goals are cancelled after the game and then comparing with some blatant mistakes referees make (like those two penalties which were not called) some things simply do not make a lot of sense in VMSL.
 

Canucks4Ever

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To clarify the VMSL did not "cancel" any goals. The game has simply been rewound, so to speak, to the point of the misapplication of the law. Assuming the VMSL board proceeds with replaying the final 10 minutes, the game will resume with VanU having an indirect free kick from the spot where the ball was handled (or the edge of the goal area, depending on where the infraction occurred). In the original game, this is how VanU scored their fourth goal to tie the match; presumably they will have a high probability of leveling the match once more (though if I were Sierra I would surely be spending the last 5 minutes of practice every week planning for how to defend this set piece!)

The game will then proceed for the remaining time so potentially either team could score further.

If the VMSL board reverses their decision to replay the final 10 minutes based on VanU's appeal, then the score will revert to 4-4 and be final, barring any further appeals to BC Soccer, etc.

Regarding your point about a recent match involving a referee not calling allegedly obvious hand balls in the penalty area, you are correct, this would fall under the referee's discretion. Not in the sense that he is allowed to decide whether or not to call the foul (the law is clear in this regard IF there is a handball in the area it is a penalty and if it denies a goal or obvious goal scoring opportunity then it is also a red card) but in the sense that it is the referees interpretation of the incident. If he says he did not see it or if he saw it differently and did not construe it to be handball, then there is no authority to challenge his decision (at least until we get VAR in the VMSL; but even then the ultimate decision still falls to the referee).

It is important in this instance to understand the difference. The crux of the Sierra protest (as well as whatever other game this occurred in during the weeks before the Sierra game) is that there is NO ROOM FOR INTERPRETATION/DISCRETION in this case. The referee was objectively WRONG in applying the law. The laws clearly state that a goalkeeper cannot be penalized for handball within the area and, therefore, cannot be sent off for this. A "back pass" is not the same as handball.

The argument about whether something is or is not a "back pass" would fall to the discretion of the referee to determine. However, once he has determined that it is a "back pass" the law is clear about what must happen next (just as it is with handball) and the referee, in this instance, applied that incorrectly, resulting in an unfair disadvantage for Sierra.
 
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FC Red Star

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Canucks4Ever,

Your interpretation is perfectly correct and I do not question it. The point that I was trying to make is that it does not make any sense, in my opinion, to "rewind" the game to the point where the ref wrongly applied one of the laws of the game.
The same situation simply cannot be recreated a week or a month later; the same situation probably could not be recreated within 24 hours (as stated in rule 4.3 "resume game within 24 hours or other date if agreed by all sides").
This VMSL rule ("game to be resumed at some other time") should be abandoned.

The analogy I was making to two obvious uncalled penalties is simply to say that referees make mistakes (either by seeing certain situations on the field differently than others or by wrongly applying the law of the game). Yes, I understand the difference between the two but the point is that mistakes happen so it does not make any sense to me (and I could be in minority) to "rewind" the game in the case the law of the game was not applied in one situation correctly.

Appreciate your time and explanation.
 

Canucks4Ever

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I am inclined to agree with you at least somewhat regarding the remedy. However, I differ a bit regarding the characterization of this as just falling under a common "referee mistake." This is not a judgement call. It is not a case of not seeing who's foot the ball came off or whether or not their was contact. This is a case of not knowing the rules; which IMO is an appropriate minimum standard to hold referees to.

As for the remedy, I think there is no question that the red card should be rescinded, as it was. Replaying the final ten minutes though does present some logistical concerns. There is precedent from FIFA and other governing bodies for this happening (most of those cases are to do with the miss application of the rules around encroachment on penalty kicks). Personally I feel that it is somewhat impractical in this instance to replay the final ten minutes. This is amateur football and the idea that you will be able to have the same players available, etc. is tricky. Also, there is the issue I mentioned earlier about Sierra getting a chance to rehearse preventing the goal. The league has resumed games in other instances (mostly as a result of light failure) with the same players from the original team sheets, so it is possible. Although, I know the one time I was ever involved directly with this type of scenario we ended up playing 10 v 9 because it was four months since the original game and there were player availability issues. It was honestly one of the most bizarre things I have ever been a part of in a football match.

I think the biggest issue here for the board is this other game where the same incident occurred just weeks earlier. I still haven't been able to suss out the division in which it took place, but I have tracked down some details. In that game the incident occurred with only ten minutes played, as opposed to just ten minutes left, and the team that was awarded the indirect free kick failed to score on the play. In this instance, the team that was improperly penalized with the incorrect red card had to play most of the game having been unfairly reduced to 10 men. This could certainly be seen as a clear disadvantage. Plus, by resuming play with an indirect free kick once more, the team that originally missed this opportunity to score will get a do-over. Presumably the score was also 0-0 at the time.

So some significant material differences in that game but, nevertheless, it creates precedent for how the league must handle these situations going forward. Not sure what the final decision was at the BoD meeting last night, but the Excellent site still show the replay to be taking place.
 

Farquea

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Echo the sentiments around 2B this year, easily the most competitive/evenly contested division I've ever been involved in. Not too many shellackings being dished out and even if there is a thumping, teams are then bouncing back with positive results against similarly placed or higher opposition the following week. Legitimately, no easy games or bankers for any team on the evidence so far.
 

robino

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Once the goal is scored you cannot change it. Was the game finished and then they put in the protest? If so, why didnt they protest right after the send of? Not continue the game?!?!
Referees just like players make mistakes all the time. Yes I know this is not a subjective mistake but rather 'rules of the law' mistake. The refs still make those mistakes as well. There was a World Cup game in questioned when a player received two yellow cards and stayed on. The result stayed at the end. I cant remember exactly the year or the player/ref involved. Bottom line is that mistakes happen. If the game was played full then the result stays.
If Sierra protested during the game, and decided not to continue with play and proved to be right, then they can finish last 10 minutes. However, this would have to have happened before the goal being scored by the other team. Because if the other team didnt score, or if Sierra won then there would be no protest. The game needs to be ABD, for it to be continued.
 

FC Red Star

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There was a World Cup game in questioned when a player received two yellow cards and stayed on. The result stayed at the end. I cant remember exactly the year or the player/ref involved..
That was 2006 World Cup; Australia vs Croatia, referee Graham Poll, one of the best referees in England at that time. Yes, he made a mistake, game continued, the result stayed, no time rewinding, no continuation of the game later on.
So, World Cup, one of the best referees at that time - mistakes happen. That should be it (and referee should pay the price; whatever it is, suspension seems the best punishment).
 

Canucks4Ever

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I remember that WC game as well. I am sure FIFA reviewed it intently, before reaching a decision. I would offer a couple of thoughts about using that as a comparable.

First Australia still advanced with a draw and a win would not have changed their runners up status in the group. It would have been interesting to see how FIFA would have handled the situation if Croatia had advanced at Australia's expense or if a win would have made Australia group winners. Australia were the aggrieved party, but ultimately the result they got still put them in the best possible scenario so why bother with any type of protest? If the facts were different, if they were denied the chance to play against a 10 man Croatia side when they needed a tying or winning goal to change their fate, then perhaps you have FIFA taking a different view of things.

The second consideration is that, in the 12 years since that incident, FIFA have taken more initiative in terms of "getting the call right" to ensure the integrity of the game. Introducing VAR etc. are all ways of doing this and there are many more examples of what @Areyoureadyforsomesoccer mentioned about matches going back and being replayed including a WC Qualifying match between Bahrain and Uzbekistan in 2005 in the build up to that 2006 WC.

So the remedy is certainly up for debate. Personally I am very torn or whether going back and replaying matches is the proper outcome. That being said, I have to think that, if based on the totality of the circumstances that is the fairest way to remedy the situation, it should likely be done. Just because others before have been unable to get that remedy does not mean that it should never be available. How else would we make progress in the sport? Where I really hinge though is on the referees. This was not a "mistake," it was incompetence. As a referee you are paid to know the rules and when you make a complete hash of them why should the team or teams affected have to suffer because you could not do the one absolutely necessary aspect of your job?

Anyway, like it or not, it would appear that the league has decided to go this route. While this obviously puts Sierra in a great position to try and get all three points in a promotion race that they look to be on the verge of taking control of, how stunning would it be if VanU were to score the indirect free kick upon the resumption of the match and then go on to win the game? Now that would be a twist!
 

Soccer Coach

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Referee's make errors. In a way is part of the romanticism of the game. The mistake did not affect the outcome of the match or the tournament, you are right.
 
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