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Premier [VMSL Premier] Predictions, Results & Banter 2019/2020

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Sunday League Gaffer

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Soolsma is paid to be the coach of Rovers. Call it fine lines if you want, and it certainly is a grey area, but most coaches at this level are paid, especially the ones that are part of large clubs with established youth programs. Do Rovers pay Soolsma over the odds because he is also a stud of a player? Probably. Should that preclude him from playing? Tough to say. He does run their practices etc. so he is "coaching" in some aspects. Obviously it is impossible to delineate where exactly the coaching stops and the playing begins, but I have a tough time reconciling Rovers with the other teams that "pay" their players. Soolsma is certainly tight with this group as it is not like the money he gets is pulling him away from some other team he would be playing for instead. Again, very grey area. However, nobody else on Rovers is compensated as far as I am aware. (Also @Regs FYI @robj is no longer with Rovers. He parted ways with them over the summer and actually, I believe, ran for a spot on the VMSL board, but was unsuccessful).

Rino's are now somewhat of an enigma. There were strong inferences that they were compensating players when they first got into Premier and of course Blaise makes a sizable sum for his "coaching." It is worth noting that Blaise is not the man with the purse strings, it is the mysterious "Dr. Mohammed" who was the man long thought to be funding the Tigers operation. He seems to have disappeared into the background somewhat over recent seasons. I heard from a reliable source that Elie Gindo was lured to Rino's by the promise of cash compensation last season, however, the main thing Rino's like to flout nowadays are Blaise's overseas and other professional connections. Looking at their roster this season, despite being top of the league, who would you pay other than Torabi? The group is mostly young guys, presumably recruited through Blaise's accademy, most, if not all, with aspirations of playing professionally. Most of their former standout players who were rumoured to be getting paid (Declan Rodrigues, Connor MacMillan, etc.) have left the club to pursue other actual professional opportunities. Gindo and Yli-Hietanen, plus supposedly the Polisis, have all traded in Rino's for CCB this season, so what does that say? I am not saying there is not money at Rino's, I am just saying it looks to be less clear cut than in the past perhaps. Maybe Dr. Mohammed has realized that paying players in an amateur league offers no return on his investment.

CCB are likely the most cut and dry example of a team that "pays" its players. That being said, no one has ever been able to prove it. There are copious rumours and plenty of anecdotal evidence based on the guys they attract, but not one shred of actionable proof. They have long be presumed to be a band of mercenaries and their roster and results have reflected that over the years with the team often struggling to field a team once their chances for trophies have faded. There were significant rumours of a large cash injection to the team last summer and their recruiting certainly seemed to back that up, but despite plenty of clamoring nobody produced any type of proof that the league could use. Instead, some people simply demanded action based purely on rumour and hearsay evidence.

So around and around we go on this carousel. Many people have professed to "know for sure" that players are being paid by a certain team, but no one ever does fcuk all about it. It often goes hand in hand with success. Inter and Chile used to be accused when they were winning Provincial titles, but now that they are no longer perennial contenders, suddenly no one "knows" anything about them any longer, despite the squads having many of the same players and management. At some point, it is either time to shite or get off the pot. Let's gather the evidence and hang these cheaters. Otherwise, shut up and get on with it.
 

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Canucks4Ever

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When a player tells you directly to your face he received a win bonus I guess that is hearsay?
Based on the definition of hearsay, unfortunately, yes.

Hearsay Definition:
Evidence that is offered by a witness of which they do not have direct knowledge but, rather, their testimony is based on what others have said to them.

"Hearsay is a statement, other than one made by the declarant while testifying at the trial or hearing, offered in evidence to prove the truth of the matter asserted."

For example, if Bob heard from Susan about an accident that Susan witnessed but that Bob had not, and Bob attempted to repeat in Court Susan's story as evidence of the accident, it could be objected to as hearsay.




Did you see the money? Did you see proof of the payment? Were there texts or other evidence asking about or discussing the money?

If THE PLAYER who told you also tells the league that he got paid (and better yet if he says "here is the money and/or other proof") then maybe the league could do something. But what happens if the league asks this player "did you get money" and he says no??? What happens if the league goes to the team that allegedly paid this player and says "we were told by @Sunday League Gaffer that you are paying your players and he knows because that player told him directly" and the team say you're lying, you just have it out for them???

This is the problem now and it has been the problem forever. Tell me, what is the league supposed to do about this?

I will be clear. I believe players get paid. I believe that a player would have told you specifically about a bonus he was receiving. I am not denying any of that.

But how is the league or BC Soccer or anyone else supposed to do anything about it with this kind of easily refuted "evidence"?

@mtkb any chance you want to chime in with a fully certified legal perspective???
 

robj

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Are any of those players willing to walk into the league and say "Team X is paying me this amount of money?". In 40+ years I don't believe that has ever happened. Does anyone have texts or emails or other communication directly from the teams in question discussing payments to players?

So what the hell is the league supposed to do?

If I walk in and say "Team X is paying Player Y money to play for them and I 'know' because he told me" is the league suppose to simply believe me and immediately sanction the team and player?

Doesn't that seem like a slippery slope? Why wouldn't that team that is already cheating just turn around and lie and say they were told I pay my players too? I refer you to everyone's favourite ITC drama to demonstrate how teams react when they are accused of cheating.

I am not for one second denying that there are very likely teams paying their players. I've been around plenty long enough. In fact, one of the best things is the fact that more often than not we all get to witness the team allegedly paying their players often fall flat on their faces. CCB actually winning something this year is largely the exception rather than the rule.

What I am saying is this constant moaning about it gets incredibly tiresome. All sort of people are happy to come on here and assert that they "know" that certain teams are paying their players. However, not a single one of them has ever had the gaull to go to the league and layout the proof. Again, proof would need to be more than just your personal assertion that you "know" something. Proof would need to be something the league or BC Soccer or CSA or whatever governing body can stick in the accused team's face and say your guilty.

So, if you or anybody else has the proof let's get it out there and actually do something about this instead of just bemoaning the fact that we "know" it is happening.
The players won’t come forward due to fear. They need whistleblower protection.

If a guy comes in showing they have been paid they will get suspended for taking the money.
If a player shows they have been offered money they are scared of saying something if it gangster related. I know a player scared shitless years ago as when word spread they were going to submit evidence three big guys showed up to their house and said if they do it won’t be in their best interest. Guys are scared in some cases and the others that don’t care are being paid by someone else why stop the gravy train it’s a no win. No one will ever come forward unless there is some protection in place. It’s a dead issue till then.
Nothing will come of it not worth wasting time talking about it.
 

Canucks4Ever

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The players won’t come forward due to fear. They need whistleblower protection.

If a guy comes in showing they have been paid they will get suspended for taking the money.
If a player shows they have been offered money they are scared of saying something if it gangster related. I know a player scared shitless years ago as when word spread they were going to submit evidence three big guys showed up to their house and said if they do it won’t be in their best interest. Guys are scared in some cases and the others that don’t care are being paid by someone else why stop the gravy train it’s a no win. No one will ever come forward unless there is some protection in place. It’s a dead issue till then.
Nothing will come of it not worth wasting time talking about it.
Hey rationality!!!

Agree. BC Soccer and or the Adult Leagues should put in some sort of whistleblower protection. Would be a good motion for an AGM.

@robj will you run again next year? If people know you are planning to run in advance of the meeting and know who you are I am sure you would get elected.
 

BCSoccerWankerOuter

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Are any of those players willing to walk into the league and say "Team X is paying me this amount of money?". In 40+ years I don't believe that has ever happened. Does anyone have texts or emails or other communication directly from the teams in question discussing payments to players?

So what the hell is the league supposed to do?

If I walk in and say "Team X is paying Player Y money to play for them and I 'know' because he told me" is the league suppose to simply believe me and immediately sanction the team and player?

Doesn't that seem like a slippery slope? Why wouldn't that team that is already cheating just turn around and lie and say they were told I pay my players too? I refer you to everyone's favourite ITC drama to demonstrate how teams react when they are accused of cheating.

I am not for one second denying that there are very likely teams paying their players. I've been around plenty long enough. In fact, one of the best things is the fact that more often than not we all get to witness the team allegedly paying their players often fall flat on their faces. CCB actually winning something this year is largely the exception rather than the rule.

What I am saying is this constant moaning about it gets incredibly tiresome. All sort of people are happy to come on here and assert that they "know" that certain teams are paying their players. However, not a single one of them has ever had the gaull to go to the league and layout the proof. Again, proof would need to be more than just your personal assertion that you "know" something. Proof would need to be something the league or BC Soccer or CSA or whatever governing body can stick in the accused team's face and say your guilty.

So, if you or anybody else has the proof let's get it out there and actually do something about this instead of just bemoaning the fact that we "know" it is happening.

I have had a player who is yet to sign with a team as he’s in university season still state “he cannot talk about that” when asked if a certain club would be paying him to play. Read what you want into that. Money makes guys mouths loyal too.
 

KingFisher

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Rumor has it Soolsma only stayed with Hurricanes last year cause they offered him more money than another club. Call it an increased salary for being a "coach" or whatever you want but its happening for sure.

I, for one, don't really care about players being paid. If you have the means then go right ahead. If there's no proof, other than players just talking amongst each other, so be it.
 

Canucks4Ever

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After some time off to revel in the glory of their National Championship, CCB return to action this week, giving us a full slate of Premier games this week. The Surrey boys have some work to do as well having slipped down towards the relegation zone during their time away. Meanwhile, at the top of the table we are set for some great games that could give us a new leader.

Completely Baseless Predictions - Week 8

Coquitlam Metro Ford Wolves v NorVan
Once again Metro Ford came away with nothing, although one supposes it was always going to be a tall order travelling to title chasing West Van and coming back with the points. However, Coquitlam were evidently rather listless in a 3-0 loss and were in no way able to build on the momentum of their first win against White Eagles the week before. Now they face a NorVan side who have also defeated White Eagles and will now try to carry that momentum into their trip to the Tri Cities. The North Shore boys continue to struggle to score goals and while they did come away with a 4-2 win over the former Serbians, all four goals were scored by Yigal Bruk. This means that Bruk has scored five of NorVan's joint league fewest seven goals for which is surely not sustainable over the season a seems unlikely to be the path to success. Still, that win vaulted NorVan all the way to seventh a dropped Metro Ford back into the relegation places in eleventh epitomizing just how tight things are at the bottom currently. Last time they played at home against a beatable opponent, Coquitlam rose to the occasion and got the job done. These are similar circumstances and given NorVan's lack of offense and the fact that Bruk cannot score them out of trouble every week, you get the feeling that if Metro Ford can bang in a few goals in this one then that should be enough to secure them all the points.

Columbus v Burnaby Selects White Eagles
In another massively important bottom of the table clash the two newly promoted sides meet this week. Columbus are still without a win through six games while, after some strong early performances, White Eagles have lost back to back matches that they would have targeted for points. Burnaby seems to be falling into the same habit they developed when they were first promoted to Division 1. They have proven that they are able to score goals, led by Matlash Valdyslav's eight tallies that currently make him Prem's top scorer, but they are now conceding goals with stark regularity. Those past two losses, 5-2 to Metro Ford and then 4-2 to NorVan last week, have put their goal difference into the negative. Scoring two goals a game should give you a chance to pick up at least a point most weeks. Instead, in their two most recent matches, a putting up a brace has earned them nothing even against sides that came into those games sitting below them in the table. Burnaby will need to get a handle on this moving forward. Fortunately, Columbus are rather starved for goals, having scored only seven in their six games played. Things are becoming slightly dire for the Italians who desperately need to find some more points from somewhere, lest they be cut loose at the bottom of the league. A match up against a side they beat and tied in league play as well as defeated on penalties in cup play last year might be just what the doctor ordered, especially after being handed an extra week to prepare because CCB were at Nationals and had last week off to recover. Unfortunately, discipline issues could well derail Columbus in this one. Marquee off season acquisition Mark Baldisimo remains suspended after his meltdown on a referee a few week back plus influential midfielder Stefano Bortolussi and stalwart defender Andriano Clemente are suspended due to yellow card accumulations. All three players would like be in the eleven to start this match if they were available. Instead, that is a massive hole in the spine of the Columbus team to add to the fact that they cannot seem to score on a regular basis. You have to think White Eagles will score as usual and that has to make them favourites here.

Club Inter EDC Burnaby v CCB LFC
It is back to regular scheduled programming for CCB as they continue to bask in the glow of their National title. Back at home, though, things are not quite as rosy as they sit tied for ninth, only out of the relegation places on goal difference. True, they do hold a pair of games in hand over the majority of teams in the league, but even if they win those, they would only climb to sixth place which would put them right on the cusp of missing out on a chance to defend their Provincial title. Their recruitment factory continues to churn out the signings with the latest being the return from Australia of Jovan Blagojevic. With the various college seasons barreling towards the playoffs, CCB's ranks stand to be further bolstered in the coming weeks as well. That being said, they do not have those players just yet and while they are National Champions, two big pieces of that side, Milad Mehrabi and Yassin Essa, will return to their respective domestic clubs in the VMSL, having left CCB in the off season. Inter crashed back down to earth after a pair of wins, including being the first team to take any kind of points of leaders Rino's so far this season, when they were well beaten by Croatia 3-0. As it so happens, the team CCB would "catch" for sixth place if they won their games in hand would be Inter, so a win here for the "Italian-Chileans" would allow them to move comfortably into the final Provincial cup place. Both these teams have been wildly inconstant this year, so it is tough to get a read on this match. Each team has players capable of winning them the fixture, but will the show up (both literally and figuratively) on game day? No idea. Call it a draw.

Pegasus v Croatia
This is an important match for both sides as fourth places fifth. Peg have done a decent job erasing the ghosts of last season with some solid victories early in the campaign. However, there have been plenty of cracks in their armor, including a 3-1 loss to Rino's last week. They were also beaten by West Van and Rovers, meaning that all three of their losses have come to the teams above them in the table, with Croatia representing the fourth team that fits in that category. Croatia took care of business against Chinter last week and need these points to stay in touch at the top of league as they look to hang onto their VMSL crown. Pegasus will also be keen on securing the points as another loss would put them within reach of Inter and the other teams below, suddenly making their job of finishing in the top six much less cut and dry. Statistically, however, Croatia are vastly superior to the Surrey boys. More goals for and fewer against with one of the top defences in the league. Meanwhile, Peg's loss to Rino's has left them sitting with a negative goal difference. The Surrey boys definitely have a fighters chance in this one, especially at home, but all signs point to Croatia being the favourites in this one.

Rovers Hurricanes v Rino's Tigers
Clearly this is the MOTW and potentially the Match of the Season to this point. First place Rino's come into the match after a solid win over fifth place Pegasus last week, but their real error was throwing the points, along with their perfect record, away in their game against Inter the week previous. Rovers and West Van who are level on points, and hot on the heels of the Tigers in second place, clashed that week and split the points. Instead of Rino's taking advantage and opening up a five point lead, they now hold only a narrow one point advantage over both teams. After their match against Rovers this week they next play West Van and now have no margin for error. Of course a pair of wins will give them precisely the cushion they threw away in the game with Inter, but two losses could well see them tumble down as far as fourth place, depending on other results. Rovers are in great form and, unlike Rino's, are undefeated on the season. Perhaps even more importantly, defending Golden Boot winner Nick Soolsma has found his shooting boots and now has seven goals in his last three games after being unable to score in the first four matches of the year. Rino's big off season acquisition, former Division 1 scoring champion Farivar Torabi, also has seven goals on the season and you would expect this match to be a proper showdown between these two marksmen. The next two weeks will test the title credentials of the four top sides with Croatia on deck as well for West Van and Rovers. There could be plenty of movement at the top of the league, which means the prospects of quite the title race from the neutral perspective. As for this match, it is two heavyweights going at it in the centre of the ring. Tough to call, but I will give the slightest edge to an undefeated Rovers side at home against a Rino's side that, in spite of their great start, still seems to need a little seasoning at this level.

West Van v Guildford FASA
The free fall continues for FASA who are now looking every bit the pre-season relegation candidates they were expected to be. Their shock Opening Day win over CCB seems an eternity ago, with their only other points coming from a late win over last place Columbus after the Italians ostensibly self-destructed. Where will the wins come from for "Guildford" going forward? Well, the short answer is nowhere if they continue to bleed goals. They have given up the most in the league, 24 in seven games, including 14 against over their last three outings. Plain and simple, West Van have lofty ambitions and with crunch encounters against Rino's and Croatia on the horizon, there is simply no room for a slip up against the likes of FASA. I would say this one is straightforward for the former Trollers, but they are the donors of the lone point that bottom of the league Columbus possess. That being said, I cannot see lightning striking twice, so expect the Amblesiders to bank these points rather easily.
 

Sunday League Gaffer

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The players won’t come forward due to fear. They need whistleblower protection.

If a guy comes in showing they have been paid they will get suspended for taking the money.
If a player shows they have been offered money they are scared of saying something if it gangster related. I know a player scared shitless years ago as when word spread they were going to submit evidence three big guys showed up to their house and said if they do it won’t be in their best interest. Guys are scared in some cases and the others that don’t care are being paid by someone else why stop the gravy train it’s a no win. No one will ever come forward unless there is some protection in place. It’s a dead issue till then.
Nothing will come of it not worth wasting time talking about it.
Why would these players cut off the hand that feeds them?? If people want to pay these guys that is on them to spend money for a silly investment. Until the league and governing body deals with this issues it will stay the same. Not blaming the players here and yes the FVSL is not innocent in all of this. POCO from years ago had a nice payroll and the guy helping run the team is now in the league office.
 

knvb

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Why would these players cut off the hand that feeds them?? If people want to pay these guys that is on them to spend money for a silly investment. Until the league and governing body deals with this issues it will stay the same. Not blaming the players here and yes the FVSL is not innocent in all of this. POCO from years ago had a nice payroll and the guy helping run the team is now in the league office.
Except the FVSL has now stopped it, and have things in place should it crop up again, no matter what size bum is sitting in the league chair.

To the VMSL's full credit, they addressed it. They had the uncomfortable conversations. They even got BC soccer involved and that's we're it seemed to fall flat, but the league addressed it which is a great step forward.
 

mtkb

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Based on the definition of hearsay, unfortunately, yes.

Hearsay Definition:
Evidence that is offered by a witness of which they do not have direct knowledge but, rather, their testimony is based on what others have said to them.

"Hearsay is a statement, other than one made by the declarant while testifying at the trial or hearing, offered in evidence to prove the truth of the matter asserted."

For example, if Bob heard from Susan about an accident that Susan witnessed but that Bob had not, and Bob attempted to repeat in Court Susan's story as evidence of the accident, it could be objected to as hearsay.




Did you see the money? Did you see proof of the payment? Were there texts or other evidence asking about or discussing the money?

If THE PLAYER who told you also tells the league that he got paid (and better yet if he says "here is the money and/or other proof") then maybe the league could do something. But what happens if the league asks this player "did you get money" and he says no??? What happens if the league goes to the team that allegedly paid this player and says "we were told by @Sunday League Gaffer that you are paying your players and he knows because that player told him directly" and the team say you're lying, you just have it out for them???

This is the problem now and it has been the problem forever. Tell me, what is the league supposed to do about this?

I will be clear. I believe players get paid. I believe that a player would have told you specifically about a bonus he was receiving. I am not denying any of that.

But how is the league or BC Soccer or anyone else supposed to do anything about it with this kind of easily refuted "evidence"?

@mtkb any chance you want to chime in with a fully certified legal perspective???

I'm in an 11 day jury trial where the "seasoned" defense lawyer for ICBC accused me of not knowing the difference between hearsay and "admissible evidence". I got around that landmine he tossed in my path, but perhaps not the best time to be asking me...

Since you did... that example is arguably double hearsay...

Oh, you mean the BC Soccer issue? BC operates on the basis that they provide you with a discipline allegation the second you sit down for your hearing, asks you to comment immediately on the oral and anonymous allegations, and then passes sentence five minutes later.

BC Soccer also refuses, per policy, to accept any witness statements, period.

BC Soccer has also recently revised their rules such that a number of categories of discipline fall into the "guilty until proven innocent" category, and they have expressly taken away any opportunity to, in fact, prove your innocence.

They are running a complete kangaroo court, and what they do or do not do with hearsay is the absolute least of their shambolic problems...
 
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