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World Cup 06' - Outright

Dude

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Well, I promised Regs I’d put something together. I have to admit, I still get wound up about this, and I guess it all comes from my aching to see Canada compete in the World Cup before I die.

I have tried to put this together as objectively as I can, but in the end, I’ll admit that I can’t help but feel betrayed by Hargreaves in particular. I’ll get ripped a new one for this, but that’s fine. I would rather take a position on this than feign disinterest, or neutrality.


ON THE CSA:

My opinion doesn’t much contrast with yours, or the opinions of many others around here involved in the game: that CSA has proven itself incompetent of advancing our Senior Men’s program, which is (or should be) the flagship and standard of measure for success. I read an article in the Province yesterday where Vic Montagliani stated some of the facts. Off memory:

~The CSA Budget last year was roughly just shy of $300,000.00~This was for the whole program. This was completely shocking to me. I sure hope this doesn’t include coach salaries…
~The lowest budget of any qualified team at this year’s WC was ~$300,000.00, Costs Rica. Difference being, their budget was only for the men’s team, not the whole National Program.
~Vic claimed that soccer is the world’s biggest sporting business, and right now we are not in that business, and I agree.

Unfortunately, FIFA doesn’t segregate senior from youth, i.e.: U-20, in their ranking compilation. But, it seems that Canada is able to compete at a much higher level up to the U-20 level, judging by most recent results, including going to the quarter finals in 2003. So, it would seem to reason to me that we are doing something right up to this point. Can it be better? Hell yes. It can be a lot better. It appears clear that the strength of our youth system can be attributed mostly to the private club system, which falls outside the CSA umbrella. Clubs like Surrey United, and all the private soccer academies here and I’m sure across the country, invest in their players to help develop them for the highest level they can achieve.

So, on a simplistic front, the big problem is the lack of funding beyond the club system. But, beyond that, there is a real void of leadership and direction.

Essentially, the problems are too numerous to hash out. They range from lack of facilities, unorganized / non-existent youth development, lack of academy, lack of a domestic professional league…too many. At this point, it seems ANYTHING will be better than what we have now.


ON PLAYING AS A PROFFESSIONAL:

This, as I’ve contended for so long, is our biggest hurdle. The deck is stacked against Canadian players getting the opportunity to play abroad. If it isn’t being bared from import restrictions, players are barred by prejudice. No, I’m not pulling the racism card, far from it. Just pointing out that soccer people over seas, in those leagues, likely have a pre-conceived notion about Canadian talent, and will not take a flyer on a Canadian, site unseen. If Canadian players do get a shot, it is though a connection of some sort. Hargreaves, from what I understand, is no different. Once our players do get the shot, they really need to stand out in trial in order to get an offer. So, that being said, the Canadian players that are able to get over there, and gain meaningful employment in the game, need to be given a great deal of credit for sticking with the dream. It is an incredible uphill battle.

ON NATIONALISM:

This is where I, admittedly, do easily sway from rational, to perhaps not quite so rational. I, like many, feel that we are incredibly lucky to be living in Canada. Is it the best country on the planet? I feel it is, for many reasons. There are other great nations too, where I’m sure their nationals feel equally proud. As a country, do we have areas needing improvement? Of course…goes without saying. But, I am so fiercely proud to be Canadian, I could never imagine representing another country, for any reason. Every day, we have people sacrificing, risking their lives and or livelihood to get here; they want to be Canadian. Some of our best athletes are immigrants or refugees. One of my proudest ever Olympic moments came when Daniel Igali danced around the Canadian flag, and kissed it, after winning gold. I thought to myself, “this guy gets it”. I think that many born and raised here take what we have for granted, and that feel that being Canadian and benefiting from all we have to offer is their God given right. Well, it isn’t. It is your right to benefit from being Canadian because this country was built on the backs of hard working people that sacrificed their lives and well being for our democracy, and independence. Being Canadian isn’t God given; it was handed to us on a silver platter. I don’t think God cares where you are born. If you are not fiercely proud to be Canadian, if you are indifferent, I first of all don’t understand why, but second, would rather you not be a Canadian Citizen. There are thousands of other hard working men and women, many having lived their lives under unspeakable hardship, that would literally be willing to give a limb to take your spot, and probably be a better citizen for this country, too.

Again, I seem to take plenty of flack for showing my patriotism on my sleeve. It seems to be fashionable with soccer players to be “Un-Canadian”. It seems to me that many Canadian soccer players don’t see the big picture, that they are ashamed of being Canadian simply because our National Program is terrible. Our laws say that you have the right to be ashamed to be Canadian, but it doesn’t mean I have to agree, especially if the basis of that shame is largely due to our FIFA World Ranking. That, in my opinion, is short sighted.


ON NATIONAL TEAM DUTY:

I treat the professional argument completely separately from the national argument.

If a player has the opportunity to play overseas professionally, I am 100% in support. I am so supportive because I want Canadians to climb to the highest levels possible, whatever that may be: science, business, arts, sports, medicine, etc. . In the end, there is always a trickle down affect, where one person’s success will help somebody behind him or her. I would never begrudge a Canadian the opportunity to achieve a higher level of success abroad if that same level can not be achieved here in Canada. Sometimes that means the person needs to take advantage of their heritage, as in soccer, to avoid a “foreigner” restriction. That’s fine by me, too.

Having stated that, there is nothing stopping those people from being Canadian, and representing us as best as possible. Now, in some cases, there may be a caveat, as in, if you’re going to play abroad, you can, but only under the agreement that you will represent the employing country when national duty comes up. KNVB brought this point up in the case of DeGuzman, as the understanding is that in order for this player to play professionally in the Netherlands, he must also renounce playing nationally for any other country, and be eligible only for Holland. In this case, we have no choice but to support the players, as this is what is required for him to go as far as he can professionally. If this is fact w/ DeGuzman, I take no issue with his decision to play for the Netherlands.

Having stated that, in situations where the Canadian playing abroad has developed, and the country now comes calling for National duty, I do expect that the player will do his utmost to help the Canadian effort. Why? Call it a sense of duty; you’re not playing for yourself, club, or your city, province, or even the CSA- you’re playing for your country. National duty should be treated as the highest honor, even if the association overseeing the National program is as pathetic and incompetent as the CSA. Representing the country at the highest level you can should surpass that of your personal feeling towards the association, or the people within the association that have rightly or wrongly screwed you along the way. It is bigger, and the country is more important than that.


ON HARGREAVES:

I’ll be the first to admit, a lot of my feelings come from bitterness. But, I think there is also a fairly strong argument to be made that he made a choice out of bitterness, and his feelings for those at the CSA who looked past him in his youth. Hargreaves was in a unique position. Born and raised Canadian, was turned away by the CSA, found a club in Germany, and developed into arguably Canada’s finest domestically born player. Having English heritage, he had a choice of countries, and selected England. Keep in mind: he was not, and had never been a resident of that country. What did England really do for him? Like it or not, this player benefited by being Canadian, as did his parent, citizens by immigration. Did the CSA overlook him? Likely. Did the CSA bottle it? Definitely. But, by later on refusing to play for Canada, when Canada came calling, he was by all appearances sticking it to the CSA. If not, his decision was based purely on the desire to play on the best National side possible, to give himself a chance to win a World Cup. Either way, he made a selfish decision. In doing so, he stuck it to all of us, too, that love this game and want to see Canada Soccer progress. If there was another good reason for his turning away from Canada, I’d like to know, because maybe it would help me be more supportive of a fellow Canadian succeeding out there in the soccer world. He’s a one in a kind; an individual player with the right mix of talent, youth, and seemingly leadership qualities that could take our program on his back, push it, and force the CSA to make the strides necessary to advance it. There are very few athletes like Hargreaves.

It should also be noted: playing for Canada would not hinder Hargreaves career. He has the heritage, so he can still play in the EPL as a non-import. Teams will still vie for his transfer weather he chose England or Canada. He is nearly, or may be already, a German under residency laws (not familiar with that). Had he selected to play for Canada, he would have had every same opportunity to become a multi millionaire playing this game. Professionally, there isn’t a valid reason as to why he could not have played for Canada- unlike (apparently) DeGuzman.

What if Hargreaves were as proud a Canadian as, say, Steve Nash? Or, Larry Walker? Can you imagine either of these players turning their backs on Canada? Steve Nash took it upon himself to give back to Canada, in more ways than just playing. His legacy will live on far longer than his playing days. It can be argued that he has single handedly done more to positively impact the sport than the rest of Basketball Canada, high school basketball, and University level basketball combined. His impact on the game, we can argue, has truly advanced basketball in this country. Same can be said of Larry Walker, and the impact he has had on Canadians whom aspire to play pro ball. Another example: Dwight Yorke of T&T. This is a player that gave back, and the country’s soccer program reaped the benefits.

He was in position to give back, and become a part of an even greater accomplishment.

So, the argument that Hargreaves was turned away by the CSA and not helped along by them makes it “OK” for him to turn away National Duty when the country came calling doesn’t wash for me. Competing for Canada in Soccer shouldn’t be about competing for the CSA. When you have reached the National level, it is about competing at the highest level for your Nation, and doing your best to help that Nation achieve it’s best result. Why should it make a difference if your National team is ranked 83rd? Shouldn’t you be proud enough of your country to overlook that? Isn’t your country, and its citizens, more important than an 83rd World ranking?

I think it is.

This sick part of all this is that secretly, inside, when Hargreaves plays, I want to watch. When he has a great match, part of me jumps for joy inside. Part of me is proud he was born and raised here, but do I need to cheer for him because he was Canadian? No.

But, as far as Hargreaves goes, that’s my opinion. And, like assholes, everyone’s got one.

There are, obviously, other players inside our sport and others that fall under the “dual” nationality qualification. To be fair, each case needs to be looked at objectively. Regs brought up the case of Will Johnson. I know very little about Will Johnson. http://www.canadasoccer.com/eng/nationals/profile.asp?id=245&sub=3 . Not much here on him. It states he was born in Ontario, but Regs mentioned lived as an English citizen most of his life. Other than that, I know little else. I guess I would prefer that his spot and opportunity be given to someone who grew up domestically, and if CSA were at all competent, I doubt they’d have any trouble scouting one out amongst our huge playing population that is of equal caliber to Will, that has stronger ties to the country. It seems that Will is playing for Canada only out of convenience, possibly because he can’t make the equivalent English side. But, I could be way off the mark, too. Not enough info. Dale Mitchell, for his part, is simply playing the game. Without the support staff and streamlined program, how is he supposed to turn up these diamonds in the rough? If Will Johnson is the best player available in Dale’s pool, he’d himself be doing an injustice to our National side by not selecting him for play. The classic double edge sword.
 

Keeper

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~The lowest budget of any qualified team at this year’s WC was ~$300,000.00, Costs Rica. Difference being, their budget was only for the men’s team, not the whole National Program.
POPULATION
Costa Rica: 4,075,261
Canada: 33,098,932

GDP
Costa Rica: $44.68 billion
Canada: $1.114 trillion

(CIA World Factbook)



Enough said. :rolleyes:
 

Dude

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No kidding. This is why I don't buy the argument at all that our best althletes go in hockey. Bullshit. Besides, the same could be said that we're missing ouy on the next Wayne Gretzky because hockey was too expensive for Mom and Pop, and that kid is now mired in the black hole known as CSA.
 

Dude

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No shite Kevin, but let's get real here. Honestly man, you have to give me a better reason than that as to why it is justifiable, in your mind, for a player like Hargreaves to turn his back on Canada. I need something a little deeper than "freedom of choice". Yeah, he had the choice, we all know that, and it is the whole basis of my point, but...after being born Canadian, growing up in Canada, enjoying the benefits and social system Canada has to offer, blah, blah, blah, I need a little more than "freedom of choice".

If you were the quality a player he is, and you hadn't grown up in England (rather, your whole life here), and you were already well established and on your way to a successful career as a pro, how could you justify choosing a foreign country you only have heritage to over your home land? Because your governing association sucks? That just doesn't wash with me. I would think that players with national pride would see the bigger picture than just say, "Oh well, our program sucks, so I'm not going to support it."

Christ Kevin, at least Regs spelled out why he holds the opinion he does. With you it seems akin to choosing to support the Flames over the Canucks because the Canucks are horrible. Easy decision, right?

What blows me away is that I seem to be in the minority on this board who feels this way. That's disappointing.
 

Keeper

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If you were the quality a player he is, and you hadn't grown up in England (rather, your whole life here), and you were already well established and on your way to a successful career as a pro, how could you justify choosing a foreign country you only have heritage to over your home land?
Just curious, Dude -- what if Hargreaves chooses to never return to his "homeland" and lives out the rest of his days as an Englishman (or German(!), for that matter)?

Would your opinion change?

In fact, let's take that one step further. If he did continue to live in Europe (I believe -- according to his website -- he owns a home in Germany) for the rest of his days (never returning to live in Canada, again), would you still have expected him to play for Canada?

~20HypotheticalQuestions
 

Dude

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Well, as far as playing duty, his bed is made. He's English forever now that he's tied, as I understand the FIFA regulations.

But, yes, if he were to return, and give back to the playing community in some form or another, I would forgive.

I'm bitter, not inhumane. Everyone deserves a second chance.

On your second question: yes, I would have. How is his residency situation any different than any other prominent Canadian athlete playing abroad? Nash? Jason Bay? Craig Forest (when he played)? If you are Canadian born, and Canadian at heart, what does it matter where you live for professional reasons?
 

Kevin Hector

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Dude I don't think you understand, I'll try and explain myself when I was growing up in Canada, my Dad (God rest his soul) told us, when I was about Four years old, I could play soccer for Canada or England, I grew up supporting three team's Derby Fcuking County, the VAncouver Canucks and ENGLAND that's all I knew, I saw my Dad wearing England shirts, regardless of how much money the CSA has (or doesn't have) it's always been England for me, so maybe it was the same for Owen??

One more thing when I moved back to England in 1998, I was playing Hockey (you know the story) I had a guy on my team born in Birmingham, his Dad has Born in Toronto, his Mom was also from Birmingham, and guess what he wanted to play Hockey for.......you guessed it CANADA!!!! why??? why would he turn his back on England's Ice Hockey program??? what because they don't have the funding, (they don't, our home rink didn't even have glass around the boards) why because they never qualify for anything, Christ Norway thumped the English national team, and that was before they developed a better program, see Dude it's about choices. I'm not saying this country is shite or anything, in fact I love Canada too, It's about a better oppertunity.
 

Dude

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Kevin,

I fully understand, but what I'm asking you to do is put yourself in his shoes. At least you were legitimately an English resident. You had hard ties to the country, not just a bloodline.

Anyhow, it is about opinion. Mine is pretty clear, others vary in either opposition, or they're neutral.
 

vratar

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I fully support Hargreaves with his decision to play for England and not Canada. For one if he stayed in Canada and never went overseas he probably would of been playing in the same league as the Whitecaps are in, whatever that league is called( I dont follow bush leagues).
Second why would an exceptional soccer player stick with an organization that tried to pull the wool over him.
Third, the CSA, provincial and youth system is so unpredictable with player selection. I have been involved in Soccer here in BC from about age 5, in conclusion if one has very little confidence with top managment, directors etc where in many cases have so much influence in player selection then Iam in favour of looking at other options. Irregardless if its country or club system.
Bottom line, go where you have the best chance of proving yourself. Especially in this day and age.
If Hargreaves was to return to Canada someday and offer his coaching services to your local youth club most of you would be for it and probably be first in line to register your kid with his program. This Dude guy would probably camp overnight to ensure a spot for his kid.
 

Zaurrini

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World Cup 2010 ???

Brazil 5.00
Argentina 6.00
Italy 8.00
Germany 9.00
England 10.00
Spain 13.00
France 15.00
Holland 17.00
Portugal 26.00
 

Dude

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Not since Tonya Harding knee whacked Nancy Kerrigan has there been such an outcry against the mistreatment of horses.


~Knehehehehe
 

Dude

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Sorry boys...I know some of you are still fighting hangovers from Nations. That was uncalled for.

:D
 

BJB

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So if the Zidane's the jockey, then matterazzati's the horse?? I always thought matterazati is a donkey and not a horse. :D
 

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