Fcuk the NDP

[Dude]

I may quote this on another social media site where I frequently get into trouble w/ my views.

 

[Regs]

Views on funny cats?

 

[Dude]

Views like that.

You are a creeper, aren't you?

 

[johnnybluenose]

Heard a bit of this played yesterday on CKNW then sought the full version out on my own. I thought it was fairly accurate in portraying the systemic issue in this debate - a Labour Union which doubles as a Special Interest Group/Political Organization. Now keep in mind he's talking about 'Murica and "Their Broken School System" and to be fair, we are talking about a school system here in BC that has some of the highest standards across Canada for Increasing Graduation Rates, Increasing Post Secondary Enrollment, and declining Drop Out Rates, etc. Another differentiation point is that we have good and open access to some Public alternative Schools and Private Schools, whereas down south total "School Choice" can be dodgy at best often leading to some parents challenging status quo to Home School, which is socially not a good thing for kids imho.

The fundamentals about the Union impact is what is contained here, driven by Data and Science and thus is FACT. This is what is at play - a Union trying to work up from their collective bargaining rights and working down through their political clout in order to be THE AUTHORITY on the School System for the net direct benefit to their UNION and not necessarily Students or Teachers themselves. The benefit of Decreased Class Size and new/rehashed rules on Composition only means 1 thing to the Union - More Teachers employed paying more due to the Union.

The TF can say it's all about the kids till they're blue in the face - it doesn't change the fact that Union Leadership has one audience to appease - the Union members. This isn't to say the Government is without issue, the Government still has to play within the current laws of the day - and the courts still have to reconcile that for the 2 parties until anyone can realistically expect the Govt to go there on Class Size and Comp in the negotiating room - unless Teachers give up on the other demands of "Per Student Funding" that will never get to the Student, such as signing bonus', increased extended benefits and additional "prep time"

Terry Moe doesn't really get into what he perceives as the way out of this issue, you'd have to do a little work on your own to find those videos, in those talks he says the Teachers Unions have gotten to be so strong that it will take some extraneous/outside force to render the unions less powerful, such as the emergence of technology to dethrone teacher's unions from power.

 

[johnnybluenose]

Also interesting reading: http://bcparentinfo.ca/Student-Achievement/

Highlights (And before you go saying this is a report with all BC Govt set of numbers....)
Conference Board of Canada: http://www.conferenceboard.ca/hcp/provincial/education.aspx
Conference Board of Canada:

About Us

We are dedicated to building a better future for Canadians by making our economy and society more dynamic and competitive.

• The foremost independent, evidence-based, not-for-profit applied research organization in Canada.
• We are objective, independent and evidence-based. We do not lobby for specific interests.
• Funded exclusively through the fees we charge for services to the private and public sectors.
• Experts in:
  • Conducting, publishing, and disseminating research;
  • Forecasting and economic analysis;
  • Helping people network;
  • Running conferences;
  • Developing individual leadership skills;
  • Building organizational capacity.
• Specialists in economic trends, as well as organizational performance and public policy issues.
• Not a government department or agency, although we are often hired to provide services for all levels of government.
• Independent from, but affiliated with, The Conference Board, Inc. of New York, which serves nearly 2,000 companies in 60 nations and has offices in Brussels and Hong Kong.

 

[Konk]

Heard a bit of this played yesterday on CKNW then sought the full version out on my own. I thought it was fairly accurate in portraying the systemic issue in this debate - a Labour Union which doubles as a Special Interest Group/Political Organization. Now keep in mind he's talking about 'Murica and "Their Broken School System" and to be fair, we are talking about a school system here in BC that has some of the highest standards across Canada for Increasing Graduation Rates, Increasing Post Secondary Enrollment, and declining Drop Out Rates, etc. Another differentiation point is that we have good and open access to some Public alternative Schools and Private Schools, whereas down south total "School Choice" can be dodgy at best often leading to some parents challenging status quo to Home School, which is socially not a good thing for kids imho.

The fundamentals about the Union impact is what is contained here, driven by Data and Science and thus is FACT. This is what is at play - a Union trying to work up from their collective bargaining rights and working down through their political clout in order to be THE AUTHORITY on the School System for the net direct benefit to their UNION and not necessarily Students or Teachers themselves. The benefit of Decreased Class Size and new/rehashed rules on Composition only means 1 thing to the Union - More Teachers employed paying more due to the Union.

The TF can say it's all about the kids till they're blue in the face - it doesn't change the fact that Union Leadership has one audience to appease - the Union members. This isn't to say the Government is without issue, the Government still has to play within the current laws of the day - and the courts still have to reconcile that for the 2 parties until anyone can realistically expect the Govt to go there on Class Size and Comp in the negotiating room - unless Teachers give up on the other demands of "Per Student Funding" that will never get to the Student, such as signing bonus', increased extended benefits and additional "prep time"

Terry Moe doesn't really get into what he perceives as the way out of this issue, you'd have to do a little work on your own to find those videos, in those talks he says the Teachers Unions have gotten to be so strong that it will take some extraneous/outside force to render the unions less powerful, such as the emergence of technology to dethrone teacher's unions from power.

Heard a bit of this played yesterday on CKNW then sought the full version out on my own. I thought it was fairly accurate in portraying the systemic issue in this debate - a Labour Union which doubles as a Special Interest Group/Political Organization. Now keep in mind he's talking about 'Murica and "Their Broken School System" and to be fair, we are talking about a school system here in BC that has some of the highest standards across Canada for Increasing Graduation Rates, Increasing Post Secondary Enrollment, and declining Drop Out Rates, etc. Another differentiation point is that we have good and open access to some Public alternative Schools and Private Schools, whereas down south total "School Choice" can be dodgy at best often leading to some parents challenging status quo to Home School, which is socially not a good thing for kids imho.

The fundamentals about the Union impact is what is contained here, driven by Data and Science and thus is FACT. This is what is at play - a Union trying to work up from their collective bargaining rights and working down through their political clout in order to be THE AUTHORITY on the School System for the net direct benefit to their UNION and not necessarily Students or Teachers themselves. The benefit of Decreased Class Size and new/rehashed rules on Composition only means 1 thing to the Union - More Teachers employed paying more due to the Union.

The TF can say it's all about the kids till they're blue in the face - it doesn't change the fact that Union Leadership has one audience to appease - the Union members. This isn't to say the Government is without issue, the Government still has to play within the current laws of the day - and the courts still have to reconcile that for the 2 parties until anyone can realistically expect the Govt to go there on Class Size and Comp in the negotiating room - unless Teachers give up on the other demands of "Per Student Funding" that will never get to the Student, such as signing bonus', increased extended benefits and additional "prep time"

Terry Moe doesn't really get into what he perceives as the way out of this issue, you'd have to do a little work on your own to find those videos, in those talks he says the Teachers Unions have gotten to be so strong that it will take some extraneous/outside force to render the unions less powerful, such as the emergence of technology to dethrone teacher's unions from power.

Read Paul Frymer's review of Terry Moe's book on teachers unions. He puts some pretty big holes in Moe's "facts".

 

[Regs]

Just read it - http://www.princeton.edu/~pfrymer/pfrymer/Welcome_files/moe_review.pdf - what are the big holes he makes? Not really seeing it.

 

[johnnybluenose]

@Konk - That is the biggest piece of poop of a paper I have ever seen.

His sole arguments miss the point that Teachers Compensation Packages (Salary & Benefits) are tax payer funded. All the way around. He also misses the point that Moe points out just HOW IMPORTANT Teachers are to our society's well being and economy and in the formation of our children, which is precisely WHY reform is needed down south, and the Unions block it for Self Serving Interests.

When he compares the joining of the two Union Top Organizations, which are solely looking out for the same electorate/membership, to Big Business he's missing the point that Moe makes entirely when it comes to political lobby and funding contributions.

Also worth noting some of this content in Moe's arguments and the Review Commentary is irrelevant to our conversation in BC is how BC is a Closed Shop. It's actualy Illegal in ~20 states in the US to operate as Closed Shops/Union Shops. In those 20 states you can join the union or not, or there isn't a union, or you have to pay the dues amount, but can decline membership in the the union (but your ~$700 per year has to be paid to another named charity (Public not Private and Not Religious) by October and all up front instead of garnished and averaged off your cheques all year) In BC we have a Closed Shop- you want to teach in the BCEd system, you MUST join the TF. The ~20 states tend to be the states that are commented on, Border States, Mountain States and the Southeast of 'Murica. The more populated states in the Northeast and Midwest and California tend to have the "Union Shops", "Closed Shops" are actually Illegal in the US except in states where it's prohibited by law (Taft-Harley act of 1947) but this only applies to businesses and organizations carrying out Inter State Trade.

Union Shops means you are required to join the union once hired, Closed Shops means you need to join the union prior to hiring. Open Shops means you can be Non Union or Union and there's flexibility. There's also "Right to Work" States whereby you cannot be forced to join a union to get any certain job, such as in North Carolina.

This is interesting:
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...chers-file-lawsuit-over-mandatory-union-dues/
http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-...it-Against-Mandatory-Union-Dues-Union-Tyranny

This read is particularly tasty! (and frightening!) http://dailycaller.com/2014/06/30/harris-decision-bad-but-not-fatal-for-teachers-unions/2/

While not a victory for teachers unions, they avoided what could have been a far more devastating blow. There were hopes among some conservative activists that the court would entirely strike down Abood and institute a right to work standard for public-sector employees across the entire country.

If that had been the outcome, it is possible that hundreds of thousands of teachers would have dropped out of their unions and ceased paying dues, thereby drastically rolling back the power of organized labor in education.

That would have been a major development in one of the few fields where organized labor remains a formidable force. The California Teachers Association, for instance, has over 320,000 members and commands $190 million in dues every year.



Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2014/06/30/h...ot-fatal-for-teachers-unions/2/#ixzz3BiOd7Oku

The argument that he goes on to make about better outcomes in fully unionized areas such as Massachusetts vs poorer outcomes in areas like South Carolina where Unions are not monopolistic is what Terry Moe calls a "Dumb Argument" watch to learn why- (fast forward to 4:01 if you don't want to watch it all)

 

[WaterBreak]

oh is our vacation time over, yeah, we can talk now....... but hey, i know we have been out on strike/vacation for the summer, no hard feelings eh. but i gotta ask, can we get retroactive pay for everyone, ya know, only 225 million, even though we walked out on strike. that would be great.

 

[Konk]

Just read it - http://www.princeton.edu/~pfrymer/pfrymer/Welcome_files/moe_review.pdf - what are the big holes he makes? Not really seeing it.

Well, for instance, he says that

@Konk - That is the biggest piece of poop of a paper I have ever seen.

His sole arguments miss the point that Teachers Compensation Packages (Salary & Benefits) are tax payer funded. All the way around. He also misses the point that Moe points out just HOW IMPORTANT Teachers are to our society's well being and economy and in the formation of our children, which is precisely WHY reform is needed down south, and the Unions block it for Self Serving Interests.

When he compares the joining of the two Union Top Organizations, which are solely looking out for the same electorate/membership, to Big Business he's missing the point that Moe makes entirely when it comes to political lobby and funding contributions.

Also worth noting some of this content in Moe's arguments and the Review Commentary is irrelevant to our conversation in BC is how BC is a Closed Shop. It's actualy Illegal in ~20 states in the US to operate as Closed Shops/Union Shops. In those 20 states you can join the union or not, or there isn't a union, or you have to pay the dues amount, but can decline membership in the the union (but your ~$700 per year has to be paid to another named charity (Public not Private and Not Religious) by October and all up front instead of garnished and averaged off your cheques all year) In BC we have a Closed Shop- you want to teach in the BCEd system, you MUST join the TF. The ~20 states tend to be the states that are commented on, Border States, Mountain States and the Southeast of 'Murica. The more populated states in the Northeast and Midwest and California tend to have the "Union Shops", "Closed Shops" are actually Illegal in the US except in states where it's prohibited by law (Taft-Harley act of 1947) but this only applies to businesses and organizations carrying out Inter State Trade.

Union Shops means you are required to join the union once hired, Closed Shops means you need to join the union prior to hiring. Open Shops means you can be Non Union or Union and there's flexibility. There's also "Right to Work" States whereby you cannot be forced to join a union to get any certain job, such as in North Carolina.

This is interesting:
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...chers-file-lawsuit-over-mandatory-union-dues/
http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-...it-Against-Mandatory-Union-Dues-Union-Tyranny

This read is particularly tasty! (and frightening!) http://dailycaller.com/2014/06/30/harris-decision-bad-but-not-fatal-for-teachers-unions/2/



The argument that he goes on to make about better outcomes in fully unionized areas such as Massachusetts vs poorer outcomes in areas like South Carolina where Unions are not monopolistic is what Terry Moe calls a "Dumb Argument" watch to learn why- (fast forward to 4:01 if you don't want to watch it all)

So he says replace teachers with computers for 80% of their classes? No problems with that I suppose.

 

[PV]

Johnnybluenose --- you sure have a hate-on for the Teachers Union. I would love to debate the issue with you, but I remember the last time I tried to discuss a topic on this site with you at which time you trotted out a bunch of propaganda which argued that the glaciers are not receeding and there is no global warming.

Yesterday. CityTV criticzed the BCTF for never sending anyone to CityTV to explain the BCTF's position. Peter Fassbender is all over the media explaining his party's position. The BCTF deserves criticism for its poor PR work.

 

[johnnybluenose]

I hate the Teachers Union, and I've never hid from that. I can and do respect a great many individual teachers, including many friends and family- but they have no choice but to join this Parasitic Organization if they want to work in their chosen profession in the Public School system in our Province.

The TF deserves criticism for a myriad of reasons including PR Work but also and not limited to:
1) Going on Strike with no resources in which to pay their striking teachers
2) Spending a war chest of cash on marketing/opposing/lobbying against good tax regimes (HST) and economic development projects such as Kinder Morgan, Northern Gateway, New Prosperity Mine, SFD Coal Terminal, etc which could have meant they had Strike Pay for their members and allowed additional revenues to be accrued and deployed in the Province' Budget.
3) Asking for outlandish benefit increases while maintaining a hard line on CS and CC.
4) Advancing some notion that BCEd's Performance is poor and that they need more teachers to improve it, when statistically we as a province are near the top if not the top across Canada categorically and in very good stead world wide where metrics exist for comparison's sake.

and I'll correct you PV - Fassbender isn't "all over the media explaining his party's position" He's reporting to the electorate the facts of the goings-on, on behalf of the Government, not his party, which was elected by said electorate.

 

[mtkb]

not to mention the 225 million dollar slush fund... errrr.... reserve the BCTF wants the government to set aside to pay out any "grievances" teachers may claim... absolutely diabolical stuff coming out of the BCTF camp...

 

[PV]

not to mention the 225 million dollar slush fund... errrr.... reserve the BCTF wants the government to set aside to pay out any "grievances" teachers may claim... absolutely diabolical stuff coming out of the BCTF camp...

MTKB - it sounds like you are opposed to all unreasonable proposals. What about a wage increase request from a TD after he got a 66% wage increase? The TD was not happy with the 66%, he wanted more and he wanted his cell phone bills paid by the club (the club agreed to that proposal) and he wanted a soccer vacation....errrrr....wanted to attend a soccer conference in the US so the club paid for it also. When this highly paid TD asked for a contract wage increase what did you say? Did you respond in a similar manner to your post about the BCTF wage and benefit proposals? I spoke out against another wage increase for the TD because high BCSPL fees are a deterrent to kids from low income families.
I have a lot of sympathy for newer and younger teachers who have not had a wage increase for years and work many extra hours and get paid less than part-time TD's.

 

[freddy]

PV - wtf are you talking about? Seriously, what are you talking about? What is a TD? Which club are you talking about? What was the original wage that then received a 66% increase? What is normal for whatever a TD is? Do they use their cell phone for work purposes all the time? Are their 10s of thousands of TDs out there who are a good comparison for teachers to support or conflict with what is going on here?

I am not picking a side here, but I can't figure out what the hell you are talking about.

 

[mtkb]

PV - more offside than Hurtado...

 

[Reds-16]

Thought for sure I was the only one who had no idea what a TD was.

 

[freddy]

PV, where the hell are you? I am sorry, I went overboard. Who cares what a TD is anyway?

As far as I am concerned, both sides are teaching kids that the way to deal with a problem is to stomp your feet and refuse to look at each other.

My personal solution to this is as follows:

Have the almighty 4 big questions teed up that need answering. Have each other's positions laid out in 250 words or less. Get straight to the point. Have B.C.'s population on-line for a 48 hour period or something like that where we do an on-line referendum on each of the 4 questions and the populous decides what happens. Libraries and neighbors can help the less IP-friendly people. TELUS can set up mobile stations in key areas of Surrey where the copper has been recently stolen. After that, fire both sides (make fun of them publicly, maybe a few tomatoes launched) and get new people who don't want the embarrassment of having decisions made for them to govern this going forward.

 

[Dude]

I think TD is technical director? Mixing arguments here?

I like the idea of Teacher Survival. In this case, we keep the ones we want, and the ones we don't want are forced to work a real job, where you aren't gifted 2 months vacation right out of school.

But don't send them to me...I can't afford to pay people $70K, who work from 8:30-3:00, and demand 2 months vacations every year...

 

[Reds-16]

I think TD is technical director? Mixing arguments here?

I like the idea of Teacher Survival. In this case, we keep the ones we want, and the ones we don't want are forced to work a real job, where you aren't gifted 2 months vacation right out of school.

But don't send them to me...I can't afford to pay people $70K, who work from 8:30-3:00, and demand 2 months vacations every year...

A little off side...I do agree with the 2 months paid vacation is a little much, but they do work a lot more than 8:30 to 3. By no means to I think the teachers need more money but they do work longer hours than most people give them credit for. ( not a teacher ).