Liberal / NDP Coalition Government

[trece verde]

John:

Confidence in context of "confidence motion" has nothing to do with the confidence of the electorate in a government; it actually just refers to the parliamentary procedure by which a sitting government gets defeated, typically like a budget vote.

BC has not always had a strong mining industry. Inasmuch as there have been successive mining-unfriendly NDP governments, the industry is also extremely susceptible to price fluctuations in other parts of the world. We lost the porphyry copper industry we had in the 1960s and early 1970s not so much because of a royalty act so much as cheaper (to produce) and richer copper was available in Zaire and Chile. Elk Valley, Quintette and Fording coal were hooped by cheaper stuff being available in China, and by the previous recession in Japan.

Yes, Teck is a big company, but Teck doesn't do exploration work. Placer Dome used to, but Barrick doesn't live here anymore. The real big guys (BHP, RTZ, etc) don't play here anymore either; they will buy out the work of a smaller company (see Kennecott) if they think it's feasible and develop it, but they won't do any of the grunt work it takes to get there.

No, we didn't all vote for the NDP, but 60% of those of us who did bother to vote didn't vote for the Tories either.

Trece

 

[Dude]

Trece,

Clearly you study and play the markets. Good for you. I can tell you from a "feet on the street" point of view, mining activity as it relates to new construction is as busy as it ever has been. At least, it was until September. It is still relatively busy. Our little company has never had so many active quotes and jobs that are mining related- both direct and indirect. Currently we have 4 large open orders, and 8 large proposals outstanding to various mining companies spending money. One cancellation- New Gold- that isn't really a cancellation, just a short term slow down to "below ground work" only. That said they still pay a rather large cancellation fee w/ out batting an eyelash.

Problem right now is that the mines are holding us suppliers by the balls; every single one is late on their payments, holding money because in their world the sun revolves around them. That's what is hurting us now. Cash is king, and the mines don't think they need to pay us, because apparently we can hold our suppliers hostage too. All it means to me is I will now be insisting on larger deposits, simply because you can't trust these companies anymore.

 

[Dude]

Below is a copy of a letter written by one of my colleagues that I thought express my views perfectly.

Bottom line: in times like this, we need LEADERSHIP, not POLITICS. The lot of them have failed us.

This was written to Andrew Saxton, MP:

The timing of your letter today was perfect. Listening to the radio late today on my return from an appointment, I heard the multiple opposition parties are intent on forming a coalition government, having earlier in the day heard the TSX dropped 10% which was predictable last Friday, considering the Prime Minister through his Finance Minister was mixing petty politicking (the $1.95 and no strike issues) into his financial state of affairs address.

On Friday last, I was as a Canadian, embarrassed by the Conservative blunder and the Oppositions' irresponsible response in these times of mega upheaval in ours and the world's economic problems. I want the politicians out of my life, and only LEADERS governing my country and influencing the World with responsible action, impacting my life day to day.

Conservatives eat humble pie publically; Opposition back off. Right now neither of you are credible in serving the public/world interests. This is my solution to the immediate Canadian mess.

If you agree with this position Andrew, make sure the PM sees this message as well as the Governor General. Either way, let me know where you stand.

 

[Bronco]

I have no problem eating another 300 million for an election. This will be a drop in the bucket compared to the damage that will be caused by the Liberal/NDP/Bloc coalition. I can just see it now. Stephane leads until the spring, until such time as Bob Rae becomes the Liberal leader and does to Canada what he did to Ontario a few years back. Be afraid people, be very afraid!!!!

 

[Dude]

I'm leaning to this line of thinking too. I wonder what the chances are that Governor-General Michaelle Jean will actually refuse to allow the coalition? Traditionally, the GGs are simply figure-head only, and sign off on everything put in front of them. Although she does have power, what are the chances she'll actually use it in this case to block the coalition. Can anyone remember the last time- if ever- a GG has refused to sign a bill?

So, assuming we do go to an election, will the three in question be required to form a coalition party, for election purposes? I would hope so, considering they will have put us in this mess to start with. Or, are we again stuck w/ a 5 leader campaign?

I'd welcome an election- at this point- w/ a NPD / Liberal coalition party. I think they'd lose even more seats (NDP just aren't a safe vote), and those seats won't go to the Block. The fence sitters will go Conservative.

Question is, who leads the Conservatives? Not sure I have trust in Harper anymore. This was a boneheaded move of the highest order.

 

[kjohnsob]

I'm leaning to this line of thinking too. I wonder what the chances are that Governor-General Michaelle Jean will actually refuse to allow the coalition? Traditionally, the GGs are simply figure-head only, and sign off on everything put in front of them. Although she does have power, what are the chances she'll actually use it in this case to block the coalition. Can anyone remember the last time- if ever- a GG has refused to sign a bill?

The only thing a GG has ever dont against parliamentary tradition was to impeach Mackenzie King, who promptly won re-election. If she says no, there would be the December 8th confidence vote, which I venture to say would pass, the other parties could not afford an election so if they dont get their back room government they will back down.

 

[the-impersonator]

I'd have a good laugh trying to watch those 3 blind mice trying to lead our country. Jerk Layton, Stephane Moron and Gilles Diception.

 

[Polska]

Why would you post that treasonous propaganda?

I don't think enough people understand the true serious implications of this.

just 4 u!

http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/no-to-coalition-government-canada.html

 

[johnnybluenose]

Confidence in context of "confidence motion" has nothing to do with the confidence of the electorate in a government; it actually just refers to the parliamentary procedure by which a sitting government gets defeated, typically like a budget vote.

I know that, I love watching politics, it is a hobby of mine, my retort was meant to be tongue in cheek. Sorry, I must have forgot the smilie

No, we didn't all vote for the NDP, but 60% of those of us who did bother to vote didn't vote for the Tories either.

Trece

Alas, here is the moment of truth.

More people voted Conservative than any one party, at least the CPC won the most seats. I agree with the fact that the "First Around the Bend" system needs a great reformation, but it what we have and have to do with it what we can.

What is an opinion of mine is that while the CPC only had approx 37-38% of the votes the others had the remaining 62-63% of the votes, and probably wouldn't have as much if they knew this was going to happen, and here is why.
1. Many people sought refuge by voting Liberal as a "safe vote" because although they may have voted CPC, they didn't trust Harper (rightfully or wrongfully means nothing, it doesn't matter for the sake of the debate) I wonder how many of these people that sought refuge in this "safe vote" feel abused now that the Liberals have sided with the ultra-left NDP and the Separtist Bloc?
2. I wonder how many Bloc voters would have gone there had they knew that what they are voting for (a set of separtist ideals which has an end game of sovereignty or raping the rest of Canada of tax dollars) a party that would inevitably support a coalition that contained ultra-left NDP and the hated Liberals they have been waging war with for decades.
3. I wonder how many of the Ultra-Left voters that voted for Layton and his team of commies would have voted that way if they knew they were going to try and orchestrate a power grab by starting to deal with the Bloc in July of '08 (before the election) and then side with the centrist or slightly left of centre Liberals. (For the record the only thing the Liberals and NDP have in common is the "green ideas" more free money for seniors, and a visceral hate for Stephen Harper.

They popular vote may have been more 50 (CPC) to 50 (All the rest) had these items been in the fore.

In any case, certainly more seats would have fallen to the CPC, further strengthening their position.

If the Coalition is so certain that this is what Canadians want I would love to challenge them to grow some testicles and call an election themselves.

They truly started this over A) A hate for Harper and B) Them facing political party bankruptcy. The Economy has sweet fcuk all to do with any of this, and is just the hot button issue they attach blame to so they can seek government.

The 300 million spent on an election is money well spent, before we allow Dion to run this country into the ground and then resign, only to have Bob Rae run around gifting the world and the poor/lazy all of Canada's riches, for nothing.

 

[The_Reverend]

wow... lot of tories on this site... and i think jbn is doing a good chicken little - the sky is falling, the sky is falling....

while the timing is not ideal for a coalition to form, I don't see how forming a coalition after the parties are voted in is a bad idea in and of itself ... you don't know how an election is going to unfold until after the vote is counted - why plan on defeat and campaign on forming a coalition government - it doesn't make sense. And while the inclusion of the bloc into a coalition is not ideal by any means, at least they don't get cabinet positions. either they are required to support the conservatives, or they are required to support an NDP/Liberal alliance - either side is screwed into accepting help from a separatist party to stay afloat.

And it remains to be seen how (or whether) the coalition will work. While perhaps making for a slightly more unstable government, it isn't really much worse than a minority. Harper really did it to himself - trying to save a measly 30mill (out of a budget of ~250billion) was worse than petty. Nothing was done to address the economy. And the Tories have squandered the huge surpluses that we have had, some for good budgetary items, some not. I personally, while appreciating the savings (and easier tax calculation), do not think a consumption tax cut is good for country productivity - income tax cuts work better for that.

I am not for a bail-out of industries - even the auto industry, and our financial institutes are in decent shape. However, directed investment into building and upgrading infrastructure in Canada cannot be really construed as a "bailout" even though it would most likely provide ample employment opportunities for those trade workers laid off as construction slows in step with the down-turning economy. We need the infrastructure anyway, so why not throw a bit more money in than previously planned to build what we need. And putting in several billion dollars worth of contracts for infrastructure would result in several billion dollars worth of secondary employment and sales, as the wages of (re-employed) workers trickle back down into the economy (and back into the tax rolls and off EI).

and for the record, I'm not a liberal, ndp or conservative voter... and am only a green voter due to lack of other viable alternatives...

 

[johnnybluenose]

just 4 u!

http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/no-to-coalition-government-canada.html

signed it last night, if that is the one I think it is...I cannot load this page at work.

I think I signed three or four last night

 

[The_Reverend]

What is an opinion of mine is that while the CPC only had approx 37-38% of the votes the others had the remaining 62-63% of the votes, and probably wouldn't have as much if they knew this was going to happen, and here is why.

...

They popular vote may have been more 50 (CPC) to 50 (All the rest) had these items been in the fore.

In any case, certainly more seats would have fallen to the CPC, further strengthening their position.

I'm not sure why so many tories think that 15-20% of the voters are tories at heart but went with other parties (read liberals) because they don't like harper. The breakdown of the popular vote closely matched the polling conducted for many of the months up to the election. That kind of attests that only 38% of the population wanted a conservative government. While it might not have been campaigned upon by any of the parties, I am sure intelligent voters (and there has to be some) could realize that several parties could form a coalition as an alternative to a minority government. I discussed this with friends before the election, even wondering why they never attempted it during the last minority government. To truly fix Canadian democracy (or at least politics) I think coalitions that can unbend from their own idealogies and come to some sort of middleground where everyone wins a little are a good idea. And a minority government is in effect a coalition by proxy, as they require the assistance of another party(ies) to stave off defeat.

I also wonder how many more people would have stayed away from the Conservatives if they knew what sort of new crap Harper would pull during a time of economic turmoil where the only actions that should be taken should be directly related to the ecomony. The move back and forth would probably cancel each other out.

 

[canuckboy]

K boys this is Parlementary Democracy, nothing wrong with bringing down a minority government if you have the numbers.

What everyone agrees on is the Bloq. They should never ever be involved in government. I understand they will not get any cabinet positions. Doesn't matter, they are involved and that taints the Liberals and NDP.

I'm thinking this will backfire and Harper gets a majority when the Bloq ****s this all up.

 

[One Dart]

The Bloc hold the balance of power either way. Just as they did in the last government when they consistently supported the Tories. There were no cries of separtist anarchy then though were there?

 

[hammerhead]

Don MArtin in the National Post had this to say and Im inclined to agree with him

Don Martin: Harper has no one to blame but himself - Full Comment

 

[Dude]

wow... lot of tories on this site... and i think jbn is doing a good chicken little - the sky is falling, the sky is falling....

while the timing is not ideal for a coalition to form...

Not ideal? This is the understatement of the century! How about it couldn't be worse for Canada and it's people as a whole? The timing literally couldn't be worse!

What makes me truly sick is that there are people that support this move out of their ideals, and because they feel the need to stick to their parties. Harper was stupid in the first place, and the three stooges were even worse.

 

[johnnybluenose]

Harper erred, and has since come off his position, which I supported and most clear thinking folks would have supported, of trying to remove the subsidies for Political Parties. He has also committed to deliver an earlier than usual budget, which will now address the "Economic Crisis"

It makes no sense to keep spending precious dollars in times like these on bureaucracies. Albeit a drop in the bucket, the knives were out well before the announcements were made...and it has nothing to do with an "Economic Crisis"

The fact of the matter is that while the coalition, or proposed coalition, is legal, it is morally not sound.

The NDP are trying desperately to suppress the taped conversations the CPC got their hands on...why? Because they are trying to hide the fact that they started to plan this "power grab" well before the actual Election even happened.

The NDP would not be trying to suppress the media from broadcasting and publishing the secret conversations if this were not the truth. Layton is being shown to the world as the snake we all knew he is, and he is trying his damndest to suppress the tapes and charge/sue the CPC as a way to deflect attention from the facts.

Since Layton set this up, he has brokered the deal with the Liberals by promising them his and his Bloc friends support, and backing for Dion to become the defacto PM.

Dion is all over this well....because afterall, "He is entitled to his entitlements"

 

[hammerhead]

Harper "erred"..... thats a mild understatement dont you think?

I just read that Layton is eyeing the Industry portfolio..... I think its time to shift my investments to Gold Bullion.....

 

[johnnybluenose]

No, it isn't.

Either two scenarios exist.

1) This has all been staged by Harper, and he knows exactly what he is doing and the grits and dippers have fallen for it....

or....

2) He made a mistake. Fact is he appointed Flaherty to put together the budget. That would be his bad.

fact is at the end of the day that Harper is too smart to have made this "mistake"...by accident.

This could be his end-around way of securing his majority, at least for the party, maybe not him as PM, but the next Election will most likely see a CPC majority, especially after the un holy union of the snakes.

 

[johnnybluenose]

Just so you are all up to speed:

Dion, September 24, Burnaby Now

"We cannot have a coalition with a party that has a platform that would be damaging to the economy,"

Dion, Dec 2, 2008 CTV.ca

"It's all about the economy," Dion said Monday as he sat flanked by his former NDP and Bloc Quebecois rivals to announce a governing entente that would take power if the Conservatives are defeated in a confidence vote next Monday.

Paul Martin...

Martin, April 29, 2005 CTV

Martin insists he simply wants to pass a budget that Canadians want.

"And I think that is much better than Stephen Harper working with separatists to force an election that nobody wants," said Martin.

This is Now:
(CP via 660News, December 1, 2008)

In Ottawa on Monday, the Liberals and NDP said they have agreed to a $30-billion stimulus package as part of the tentative deal.

A senior Liberal source says the package involves an economic advisory panel of experts, including Paul Martin, John Manley, Frank McKenna, and Roy Romanow.

what is that I smell? oh yeah, hypocrisy of the highest order....