Mr Coppertone
<font color="red">Most Irritating TTPer - November
I have seen better refs in Peewee. Our refs in premier STINK. Give them a pay cut.
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Refs
- Thread starter Regs
- Start date
I don't know his name, but . . .
There's a blond (redish?) haired, youngish looking ref around who does a great job each time I see him. Perhaps someone could help out with his name: he did the Rangers/Firefighter's the weekend before yesterday, and his does the odd summer league game from time to time.
He gives and earns respect, follows the play well, and doesn't allow tensions to boil beyond control.
Keeperwhothinksthatgoodrefsneedtobementionedaswell
There's a blond (redish?) haired, youngish looking ref around who does a great job each time I see him. Perhaps someone could help out with his name: he did the Rangers/Firefighter's the weekend before yesterday, and his does the odd summer league game from time to time.
He gives and earns respect, follows the play well, and doesn't allow tensions to boil beyond control.
Keeperwhothinksthatgoodrefsneedtobementionedaswell
F
fink
too many UV rays to coppertone's head
hey copper, if you score enough goals the ref can't 'cost you the game'. Try playing better and whining about the ref less - you might find it helps.
fink
whothinkstherefsarenotthereasonCanadiansoccersux
p.s. anytime you want to have a rational discussion come and find me, i'm happy to argue.
hey copper, if you score enough goals the ref can't 'cost you the game'. Try playing better and whining about the ref less - you might find it helps.
fink
whothinkstherefsarenotthereasonCanadiansoccersux
p.s. anytime you want to have a rational discussion come and find me, i'm happy to argue.
Captain Shamrock
Well-Known Member
Well said, Fink
Actually, we had Vince Alvano ref our game on the weekend. He called it VERY tight the first 10 minutes or so(not that it needed it), but overall he did a good job. Unfortunately, I saw John's performance in the Sap/Indo CAT game and I can't say the same thing. A player went down in his own box and he stopped the play just as one of the Indo players was shooting and scoring. The play should not have been stopped and he started play again with a drop ball on the penalty spot. It wasn't a great decision........
CaptainwhohopeswehaveasolidrefonSaturdayagainstAlemania
Actually, we had Vince Alvano ref our game on the weekend. He called it VERY tight the first 10 minutes or so(not that it needed it), but overall he did a good job. Unfortunately, I saw John's performance in the Sap/Indo CAT game and I can't say the same thing. A player went down in his own box and he stopped the play just as one of the Indo players was shooting and scoring. The play should not have been stopped and he started play again with a drop ball on the penalty spot. It wasn't a great decision........
CaptainwhohopeswehaveasolidrefonSaturdayagainstAlemania
Mr Coppertone
<font color="red">Most Irritating TTPer - November
I was not commenting on the way Canadians play soccer Jackass. I was commenting on the fact that the refs in premier are shite. They think that the game is all about them. If you argue a call they tell you where to go. You do something else they will try to instigate you to say something. Refs have to realize they are going to get carved for a shite calls just like a player realizes he will get carved for a shite play. They took the jobs as refs so take everything that comes with it, and that is fans yelling at you players arguing your calls etc.... This thread is about Refs not how Canadians play soccer. So, when I want to have a Rational Discussion I will be sure NOT to call upon you.
Mr Coppertone,
The referee is there to enforce the laws of the game. Not to 'get carved', not to argue with players, and not to instigate. We all know that some of the referees are in it for themselves but it's not surprising that the refs that might want to be there for the good of the game disappear do quickly.
This should not turn into a flame war. All rational discussion is always welcome.
The referee is there to enforce the laws of the game. Not to 'get carved', not to argue with players, and not to instigate. We all know that some of the referees are in it for themselves but it's not surprising that the refs that might want to be there for the good of the game disappear do quickly.
In fact this is called dissent and you should be cautioned. The player has NO right to argue. As this might turn into a rational discussion I would like to hear your thoughts on how we could entice better referees to find the time to do games on the weekends, or your thoughts on how we can improve the jobs that the current referees are doing?
I'm sure that this will not help the situation at all.
This should not turn into a flame war. All rational discussion is always welcome.
Mr Coppertone
<font color="red">Most Irritating TTPer - November
Kurgan
You make some great points, but what I am saying about the carving and all the other stuff is, that the ref have to expect that from the sidelines, fans, and others watching. You have never yelled out to a ref at a game? You are full of shite if you say no. You guys are right, there are a few refs out there that are not in it for themselves, but the majority of them are. The ones that are ruin games that have the possibility to be good games. For instance, Inter against Peg. I am sure there have been a handful of other games screwed by refs this year, and there have probably been some games that have had good refs. I would say that the majority of games this year have been decided by the ref and not of the play of the teams.
I don't know what you can do to make these refs do better. They have to start forgetting about everything else around the field and concentrate on the game it self, but there is always going to be horrible officiating. The problem is we have been getting it every game. It is not only us that see it, others on the field and who are watching see the huge problems we have with these refs.
You make some great points, but what I am saying about the carving and all the other stuff is, that the ref have to expect that from the sidelines, fans, and others watching. You have never yelled out to a ref at a game? You are full of shite if you say no. You guys are right, there are a few refs out there that are not in it for themselves, but the majority of them are. The ones that are ruin games that have the possibility to be good games. For instance, Inter against Peg. I am sure there have been a handful of other games screwed by refs this year, and there have probably been some games that have had good refs. I would say that the majority of games this year have been decided by the ref and not of the play of the teams.
I don't know what you can do to make these refs do better. They have to start forgetting about everything else around the field and concentrate on the game it self, but there is always going to be horrible officiating. The problem is we have been getting it every game. It is not only us that see it, others on the field and who are watching see the huge problems we have with these refs.
Not sure if its a good or bad call???
Reading this thread, brings me to a time last year when we were playing SportsTown.
StGermain scores two goals, gets a red card, and then is allowed to return after the ref realised his mistake, 15 minutes later.
St.Germain went on to score his third and winning goal.
Is this right? Admitting a mistake and allowing the player to return??? or would you consider this a poor ref for making the mistake in the beginning???
Not Sure.
Zaurrini
Reading this thread, brings me to a time last year when we were playing SportsTown.
StGermain scores two goals, gets a red card, and then is allowed to return after the ref realised his mistake, 15 minutes later.
St.Germain went on to score his third and winning goal.
Is this right? Admitting a mistake and allowing the player to return??? or would you consider this a poor ref for making the mistake in the beginning???
Not Sure.
Zaurrini
Zaurrini,
I'd have to understand the mistake the ref made...but yes, fcuking shocking. Maybe if he reached into the wrong pocket and grabbed the red? The player shouldn't have been still around the pitch anyway. This was a premier game and the ref had assistants? Poor.
The ref can't un-eject a player once the play has started. But, Sportstown could certainly have protested although from what I've seen of the league constitution, the ref's decision is final...
This is the sort of thing that the referee's association should discuss - in conjunction with the VMSL AND the teams involved. Right now there's really no resolution process.
Accountablility for referees is surely lacking. If there were more rational discussion perhaps there would be way less on an Us v. Them attitude.
I'd have to understand the mistake the ref made...but yes, fcuking shocking. Maybe if he reached into the wrong pocket and grabbed the red? The player shouldn't have been still around the pitch anyway. This was a premier game and the ref had assistants? Poor.
The ref can't un-eject a player once the play has started. But, Sportstown could certainly have protested although from what I've seen of the league constitution, the ref's decision is final...
This is the sort of thing that the referee's association should discuss - in conjunction with the VMSL AND the teams involved. Right now there's really no resolution process.
Accountablility for referees is surely lacking. If there were more rational discussion perhaps there would be way less on an Us v. Them attitude.
F
fink
ref's decision is final except...
The referee's decision is final on facts connected with the play... i.e. foul or not. This case is an error in law and not judgement and I think is certainly appealable.
As I mentioned above, it is difficult to improve officiating unless you have quality replacements on hand. As long as the current paucity of refs exists, frankly teams will have to live with it. And from what I've heard, the teams are more than willing to do this. All last year on the Island there was a call for more refs from the teams and very little response from the league membership.
Oh and Mr. Coppertone, my remarks referred to the fact that so often players like to blame someone else - this seems universal - but usually the central responsibility is the team. I remember one situation last year where I reffed two PCSL teams, Victoria player went down in the box on what I felt was a dive. Later that game the same player has a wide open net - and I mean wide open, wider than the legs of Pamela Anderson at a Motley Crue concert - and shanks it over the net. They go on to lose.
And guess who gets the shite from the team after the game? (and I mean shite, threatening me in the parking lot etc.) The obvious missed chance? or a dubious non-call in the box?
Right.
slightlybitterbutgenuinelyconcernedaboutthestateofaffairs
fink
The referee's decision is final on facts connected with the play... i.e. foul or not. This case is an error in law and not judgement and I think is certainly appealable.
As I mentioned above, it is difficult to improve officiating unless you have quality replacements on hand. As long as the current paucity of refs exists, frankly teams will have to live with it. And from what I've heard, the teams are more than willing to do this. All last year on the Island there was a call for more refs from the teams and very little response from the league membership.
Oh and Mr. Coppertone, my remarks referred to the fact that so often players like to blame someone else - this seems universal - but usually the central responsibility is the team. I remember one situation last year where I reffed two PCSL teams, Victoria player went down in the box on what I felt was a dive. Later that game the same player has a wide open net - and I mean wide open, wider than the legs of Pamela Anderson at a Motley Crue concert - and shanks it over the net. They go on to lose.
And guess who gets the shite from the team after the game? (and I mean shite, threatening me in the parking lot etc.) The obvious missed chance? or a dubious non-call in the box?
Right.
slightlybitterbutgenuinelyconcernedaboutthestateofaffairs
fink
Mr Coppertone
<font color="red">Most Irritating TTPer - November
Fink
The only reason I am upset is because in both the last two games we have played well enough to win, and it gets frustrating when you come out week in week out to have your games decided by a call the ref has made. Against Sporting on there goal one of our players was thrown into our goalie by a sporting player, and there was no call. Against Peg eventhough Peg played well the winning goal was a guy stubbing his toe and falling, and he was givin a peno. So, in the last two weeks we have lost 4 valuble points cause of bad officiating. Now you tell me would you not be frustrated?
The only reason I am upset is because in both the last two games we have played well enough to win, and it gets frustrating when you come out week in week out to have your games decided by a call the ref has made. Against Sporting on there goal one of our players was thrown into our goalie by a sporting player, and there was no call. Against Peg eventhough Peg played well the winning goal was a guy stubbing his toe and falling, and he was givin a peno. So, in the last two weeks we have lost 4 valuble points cause of bad officiating. Now you tell me would you not be frustrated?
sensei_hanson
New Member
Coppertone, Fink, et al,
Its about time I waded in with my two cents on this topic. I have been known to be a bit of a ref basher (some say loudmouth - its up for debate), but deep down under all the whining and general resentment, I actually respect referees, especially ones who do VMSL premier games. Why?
Because top level ameture(sp?) soccer in this province is different. Its not really a skill game - its fit, fast and hard. Look at the majority of the teams playing premier at the moment. Several teams have etched out their existence in the top flight by being physical, grinding, "mucker"-like teams. This is not to say that they can't play soccer or are somehow a detriment to the game....its just that to survive and stay competitive in premier, you have to be physical. Bottom line. While I won't go as far as to name teams, every TTPer knows of more than one side who's lack of skill is more than made up for by their ability to get physical on a weekly basis.
This style of play puts a lot of emphasis on the decisions a referee makes during a game. If he calls a majority of the fouls, he's whistle happy. If he lets them play a bit and keeps the whistle tucked away, he's lost control of the match. Its not like soccer here is dominated by two footed tackles, studs-up slides and things like that.....its obstructions, body-to-body stuff, shirt pulling and clumsy tackles. Its these calls that are put up to the referees interpretation, and generally players get frustrated. I've seen many a game completely lose any sort of flow or run of play due to the frequent (or, on the other side of the coin, lackthereof) calls made by an official, but do you blame the official for making the decision, or the players for playing such a physical style of play?
I could go on, but at the risk of clouding my point I'll leave it as is. To coin Aunt Jinky...
Hope This Has Been Helpful,
-Sensei.
Its about time I waded in with my two cents on this topic. I have been known to be a bit of a ref basher (some say loudmouth - its up for debate), but deep down under all the whining and general resentment, I actually respect referees, especially ones who do VMSL premier games. Why?
Because top level ameture(sp?) soccer in this province is different. Its not really a skill game - its fit, fast and hard. Look at the majority of the teams playing premier at the moment. Several teams have etched out their existence in the top flight by being physical, grinding, "mucker"-like teams. This is not to say that they can't play soccer or are somehow a detriment to the game....its just that to survive and stay competitive in premier, you have to be physical. Bottom line. While I won't go as far as to name teams, every TTPer knows of more than one side who's lack of skill is more than made up for by their ability to get physical on a weekly basis.
This style of play puts a lot of emphasis on the decisions a referee makes during a game. If he calls a majority of the fouls, he's whistle happy. If he lets them play a bit and keeps the whistle tucked away, he's lost control of the match. Its not like soccer here is dominated by two footed tackles, studs-up slides and things like that.....its obstructions, body-to-body stuff, shirt pulling and clumsy tackles. Its these calls that are put up to the referees interpretation, and generally players get frustrated. I've seen many a game completely lose any sort of flow or run of play due to the frequent (or, on the other side of the coin, lackthereof) calls made by an official, but do you blame the official for making the decision, or the players for playing such a physical style of play?
I could go on, but at the risk of clouding my point I'll leave it as is. To coin Aunt Jinky...
Hope This Has Been Helpful,
-Sensei.
The Apprentice
Well-Known Member
I'd call you a loudmouth over a ref basher anyday
Good one
GEU vs Surrey
Besides the 6 yellows and 1 red that were handed out, I thought that Uppal had a great game as a ref. Didn't miss much. Except when there player came up to ours and threatened to take him down next time he got the ball and our player pushed him on his ass.
Other than that he kept the game in control and even had time to kid around
GEU vs Surrey
Besides the 6 yellows and 1 red that were handed out, I thought that Uppal had a great game as a ref. Didn't miss much. Except when there player came up to ours and threatened to take him down next time he got the ball and our player pushed him on his ass.
Other than that he kept the game in control and even had time to kid around
F
fink
evaluations
BC Soccer has a referee development committee which is broken into an education sub-committee and an assessment sub-committee. There are 5 stages of provincial referee: 5 and 4 - youth, adult lines; 3- adult games, 2, 1, progressively higher level games. For instance, to run the line at the Whitecaps game requires class 1 certification. The next steps are national, and then FIFA (ref or line). In order to get to the next level refs must write an exam on the laws, and receive 3 high marks on assessments during games. Once a year, to maintain a class 1 or 2, one assessment must be passed - officially. Unofficially, there aren't enough assessors to perform all these, and refs must request them as well (how else will the office know where they are?).
As well, there just aren't enough refs to implement a full evaluation system (moving up and down) and in practice the local leagues employ local schedulers who have little or nothing to do with BC Soccer and whose only concern is filling all the slots for a day of games.
fink
BC Soccer has a referee development committee which is broken into an education sub-committee and an assessment sub-committee. There are 5 stages of provincial referee: 5 and 4 - youth, adult lines; 3- adult games, 2, 1, progressively higher level games. For instance, to run the line at the Whitecaps game requires class 1 certification. The next steps are national, and then FIFA (ref or line). In order to get to the next level refs must write an exam on the laws, and receive 3 high marks on assessments during games. Once a year, to maintain a class 1 or 2, one assessment must be passed - officially. Unofficially, there aren't enough assessors to perform all these, and refs must request them as well (how else will the office know where they are?).
As well, there just aren't enough refs to implement a full evaluation system (moving up and down) and in practice the local leagues employ local schedulers who have little or nothing to do with BC Soccer and whose only concern is filling all the slots for a day of games.
fink
KNVB,
The ref that was doing your game this past weekend, dont know of his name but for sure is consistant at leting a lot go that should be called. I can understand some things but by what was said in other threads you must be thinking the same as me after what happened to you and Wilkie. He misses what seems to be the easiest of calls but then calls the softest of fouls for shoulder to shoulder occurences where the smaller guys get muscled off the ball. Wondering what others think, of this guy and maybe refs should be under review every so often atleast once a month if not more.
Cheers
JB
The ref that was doing your game this past weekend, dont know of his name but for sure is consistant at leting a lot go that should be called. I can understand some things but by what was said in other threads you must be thinking the same as me after what happened to you and Wilkie. He misses what seems to be the easiest of calls but then calls the softest of fouls for shoulder to shoulder occurences where the smaller guys get muscled off the ball. Wondering what others think, of this guy and maybe refs should be under review every so often atleast once a month if not more.
Cheers
JB
Mr Coppertone
<font color="red">Most Irritating TTPer - November
Still shocking
This week our ref was not bad, but still made a costly call that change the game cmpletely. It was a bad tackle that lead to a goal by us and totaly took sapp. out of the game.
This week our ref was not bad, but still made a costly call that change the game cmpletely. It was a bad tackle that lead to a goal by us and totaly took sapp. out of the game.
The glass is half empty
Anyone desperately searching for improvements in the officiating had may as well stop holding their breath.
Fink touched on it: not enough refs. Why? Probably because for $40.00, anyone who would perhaps aspire to become an official would rather spend their Sunday doing something else than taking abuse (and in many cases, threats) from a bunch of weekend warriors. Before you think I've insulted you, I include myself in that class.
Why do you think guys like John in Vancouver and Herb in Coquitlam are allowed to keep their cards year after year? No competition. We can bitch all we like, but unless we start getting fresh new blood into officiating, we'll keep getting the same, sub standard shite. Ask yourself this: would you rather get paid $40.00 to officiate the typical VMSL or FVSL match- w/ no linesmen- or would you prefer to enjoy the countless other activities Vancouver can offer? Personally, you could double the rate and I still wouldn't bite. That brings us to question #2: If we do double the rate- which would be the long term sollution to weeding out poor officials- would you be willing to foot the bill in the form of increased player dues?
Anyone desperately searching for improvements in the officiating had may as well stop holding their breath.
Fink touched on it: not enough refs. Why? Probably because for $40.00, anyone who would perhaps aspire to become an official would rather spend their Sunday doing something else than taking abuse (and in many cases, threats) from a bunch of weekend warriors. Before you think I've insulted you, I include myself in that class.
Why do you think guys like John in Vancouver and Herb in Coquitlam are allowed to keep their cards year after year? No competition. We can bitch all we like, but unless we start getting fresh new blood into officiating, we'll keep getting the same, sub standard shite. Ask yourself this: would you rather get paid $40.00 to officiate the typical VMSL or FVSL match- w/ no linesmen- or would you prefer to enjoy the countless other activities Vancouver can offer? Personally, you could double the rate and I still wouldn't bite. That brings us to question #2: If we do double the rate- which would be the long term sollution to weeding out poor officials- would you be willing to foot the bill in the form of increased player dues?
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