Should I put my son in the HPL

[Dude]

You know, coming from a dad whose kid picks all the expensive sports (skiing, BMX, hockey), and is fairly competitive in all, it’s not lost on my that I’m arguing for the socialist system here. BTW, this is the ONLY time I’ll toe that line…

Heany...you just can't compare the two sports (hockey / soccer) in Canada.

In Canada, we are so far ahead of the rest of the world in overall hockey development it's insane. May more number, way more knowledge, and way more GREAT quality competition, even at the lower ranks. It's a pyramid of massive proportions, where the tip of the pyramid produces far too many elite players than there are teams in the world.

There is the odd player of financial disadvantage in hockey that will not slip through the cracks, either. The system props those up.

Also, after age 15, the elite level players in hockey stop paying.

Conversely, in Canada, we're so far behind in soccer than most nations that matter, even in Concacaf. That, and in reality, we really do tend to get the kids that aren't playing hockey...in many cases, soccer is second choice due to financial reasons.

In the case of HPL, the model is really small and financially manageable to simply be able to subsidize the registration fee. There will always be other expenses outside of registration, so those aren't really considered "extras" to most parents. The goal is to bring in the top players, give them a system of competition and accountability, and develop them. Right now, the system is unproven...if BCSA really wants tyo make this work, they need to invest in it, and think outside the box. Financial concerns should never be a reason why a kid can't play top level footy in BC.

Let me ask you…let’s assume little Mags gets to the level he’s looking at HPL…where do you fall on the fence right now? I know if it were me and my kid, I’d be seriously drawn! Give up the summers, give up other sports, become a full time, all the time soccer family, and cough up another $2500.00 PLUS related expenses? I do much better on my T4s than many, and I will tell you now, I’d do the analysis, and may not invest. I’m not convinced the upside is there for the sacrifice.

But, if the program were no extra cost, and the kid is held to a high level of accountability in order to keep his spot, it’s a no brainer- I’m fully in, and supporting the system however it needs supporting.

 

[Colin Elmes]

User pay model is a massive hinderance to the game moving forward in North America( and I am part of it).

The game in the US is upper middle class because of user pay issues. If the latino and african american segments of their country could be embraced more effectively by the game the US may have won the W Cup by 2010.

I have always wished that I could do what I do not off the backs of the parents! Unfortunately it is a system rooted in our game here on this continent.

In this case, the fees being charged versus the unproven product being presented is a big question mark. Volunteer coaches now user pay coaches overnight etc etc.

I would suggest that mini season experiences have swung from decent to dismal across the league, age brackets, gender and even within Club. Too many of our better experienced/qualified people not involved or acting just a TD's alone....

Lots of work still to be done for sure

 

[heanjob]

You know, coming from a dad whose kid picks all the expensive sports (skiing, BMX, hockey), and is fairly competitive in all, it’s not lost on my that I’m arguing for the socialist system here. BTW, this is the ONLY time I’ll toe that line…

Heany...you just can't compare the two sports (hockey / soccer) in Canada.

In Canada, we are so far ahead of the rest of the world in overall hockey development it's insane. May more number, way more knowledge, and way more GREAT quality competition, even at the lower ranks. It's a pyramid of massive proportions, where the tip of the pyramid produces far too many elite players than there are teams in the world.

There is the odd player of financial disadvantage in hockey that will not slip through the cracks, either. The system props those up.

Also, after age 15, the elite level players in hockey stop paying.

Conversely, in Canada, we're so far behind in soccer than most nations that matter, even in Concacaf. That, and in reality, we really do tend to get the kids that aren't playing hockey...in many cases, soccer is second choice due to financial reasons.

In the case of HPL, the model is really small and financially manageable to simply be able to subsidize the registration fee. There will always be other expenses outside of registration, so those aren't really considered "extras" to most parents. The goal is to bring in the top players, give them a system of competition and accountability, and develop them. Right now, the system is unproven...if BCSA really wants tyo make this work, they need to invest in it, and think outside the box. Financial concerns should never be a reason why a kid can't play top level footy in BC.

Let me ask you…let’s assume little Mags gets to the level he’s looking at HPL…where do you fall on the fence right now? I know if it were me and my kid, I’d be seriously drawn! Give up the summers, give up other sports, become a full time, all the time soccer family, and cough up another $2500.00 PLUS related expenses? I do much better on my T4s than many, and I will tell you now, I’d do the analysis, and may not invest. I’m not convinced the upside is there for the sacrifice.

But, if the program were no extra cost, and the kid is held to a high level of accountability in order to keep his spot, it’s a no brainer- I’m fully in, and supporting the system however it needs supporting.

Not comparing hockey and soccer and I understand the differences in the two sports in Canada. Let's call a spade a spade here soccer will never surpass the stature of hockey. But improving soccer is what we are trying to do here....I think soccer will benefit from the HPL set up and going forward we will produce more local talent to represent our city, province and country than we have in the last 15 years in this province.

As far as bringing in the top players I have my doubts that local soccer politics will ever disappear. We played another metro team on the weekend who had at least 5 HPL quality players on the field. I asked the coach after the game why the boys were playing metro and he said that the parent's can't afford HPL as there jobs are this this and this....I commented that if there club got a franchise then I guess they wouldn't be able to afford it either?

It is never "no cost" for anything Elite. It has been said many times...parent's were already paying about the same or more for their soccer training and teams in the past. Talk to parent's of figure skaters, dance, etc and they all pay way more for a long shot at making anything. Personally, I look around and I have no idea how some of the families spend what they spend on soccer and they have three elite players from U10 to U13 in the family. For some families it is everything and their FIRST choice.

I would support HPL as it stands and would endorse my kid going for it if he had the ability and talent..Surrey United is at the top in the province for programming and value so I don't see the cost as the biggest part of the choice to do it or not.

I also agree with Captain: if you are a good player then you should still end up where you should be in the soccer landscape playing at YOUR level regardless of whether or not you are in HPL...but would argue that those kids WILL always get swept up and taken care of financially once the competitive juices of a real season kick in and everyone is wanting to win.

I can't believe you are a socialist.

 

[heanjob]

User pay model is a massive hinderance to the game moving forward in North America( and I am part of it).

The game in the US is upper middle class because of user pay issues. If the latino and african american segments of their country could be embraced more effectively by the game the US may have won the W Cup by 2010.

I have always wished that I could do what I do not off the backs of the parents! Unfortunately it is a system rooted in our game here on this continent.

In this case, the fees being charged versus the unproven product being presented is a big question mark. Volunteer coaches now user pay coaches overnight etc etc.

I would suggest that mini season experiences have swung from decent to dismal across the league, age brackets, gender and even within Club. Too many of our better experienced/qualified people not involved or acting just a TD's alone....

Lots of work still to be done for sure

You read Ciara McCormack's article?

Success comes from the Infrastructure

Iceland has 320,000 people. Sheesh.

 

[STD]

I can't believe you are a socialist.

Dude is a socialist when it cost Dude not to be and right wing when it cost Dude to be a socialist. Hair products are costly.

Easy Dude I know little Dude doesn't play soccer, just haven a poke. Btw did he make the choice after watching his father play?

 

[akslop]

Is there Guaranteed playing time in the HPL?

Steelie,

There are kids just as good if not better than your child playing in the HPL. For arguement sake , lets say u drop the money for him toplay and he rides the pine for the year.. Is he okay with that? How does that affect him? Is he aware this scenario could very well unfold?
Life is about taking chances... Good on you for doing your homework.

P.S. if he is as good as u say he is , which country will he cap with and represent?

 

[akslop]

Dude is a socialist when it cost Dude not to be and right wing when it cost Dude to be a socialist. Hair products are costly.

Easy Dude I know little Dude doesn't play soccer, just haven a poke. Btw did he make the choice after watching his father play?

Dude is part of the 1%..

He laughs at us peasants...

He thinks us commoners are cute..

One time i heard him say , from his view up on top we all look like ants living in his ant farm...

Its Time to Occupy BCSA and CSA!

 

[bettermirror]

bettermirror,

It looks that most clubs will charge around $2,500 for a full HPL season (at the beginning). Super-Y season cost between $1,500 and $2,000 (3-month season during the summer) while trip to Florida was approximately the same amount as the season (so the cost for a team that would qualify for Super-Y finals in Tampa was approximately $4,000).

Metro/Select season cost at most $300 (Surrey United, Metro Ford, Burnaby Selects, most of the youth clubs) with the exception of a few clubs that hired "professional" coaches and then charged up to $1,800 per season (Vancouver Selects, North Shore). The fact is that such high cost by those clubs with the "pros" was not justified, on the contrary, other clubs were more successful.

The fact is that Metro/Select league was always limited to 3 out of district players while those district boundaries do not exist anymore for HPL. A lot of smart soccer people in BC wanted to get rid of that out of district rule for years but they were not able to do it.
When somebody suddenly changes that rule for HPL and, at the same time, decides to form a "new" league that costs a lot more (now even those clubs that did not charge a lot for Metro /Select league, charge HPL high fees) I cannot say that is anything else but a money grab. The time will tell, I am quite convinced I am right. The same coaches, the same clubs, but higher fees!? Come on!

The most ridiculous cost was/is for BC Provincial program. It cost(s) more than Super-Y league (including the trip to Florida).

Your and my experiences with SYL seem to be different. I was involved with 4 teams (1 club), never costing more than $1100 (I think!?) to register, but nowhere near the $1500-2000 you quoted as costing. I don't have encyclopedic, nor will look it up, but I don't believe the other clubs cost that much, though Victoria and Okanagan would have had extra travel costs associated? I have no clue if they included those costs in their registration fees....? I was also part of 3 teams that went to Florida and I went once myself. The trip itself cost $1000 while food and any other shopping was whatever you were willing/able to spend. I have no clue if other teams included food in their Florida travel costs....nor if they were able to get the flights for about $1000/player as my teams were able. So that's only about $1100 per player for SYL plus $1000+food for Florida if your team qualified. The $1100 league registration fee per player didn't include hotel for the one or two road trips I don't believe....

As for metro - yes, as you noted the fee's varied quite widely....the combined total being NEAR $2500 or MORE than $2500 depending on the kid etc etc etc....not to mention it sounds as though a lot of metro/SYL kids were also playing in various academies....HPL appears to be "cheaper"???? The season is longer (seems most teams will take Dec-Jan off but then back to it....) and there is more exposure in HPL than there was in metro and SYL.

I don't know the BC PTP costs, but yes, it sounds like they were much more than SYL.

@Akslop - HPL guaranteed playing time is 30% over the course of the season (and maybe guaranteed starts??)....

Someone above here said they know of some kids that didn't try due to the costs being prohibitive for them - but I am glad you noted it was their choice to not even try, not the club who turned them away.....I'd be surprised to hear a club turn someone who can't afford HPL, but that means truly not being able to afford it - which doesn't account for the lower middle income folks who won't qualify for assistance I guess....?

 

[Rangerforever]

Is there Guaranteed playing time in the HPL?

Yes.
We were told at our parent meeting earlier in the year it's (I *think*) 30%.

I find it hard to believe that any Metro team from any club could touch my kid's team and/or have any other players that would deserve to be in his squad.
I'm sure there's a couple out there though, there always is.
In general, I think most, if not all, of the top players in my son's age group are playing HPL.
I've seen enough of them all over the last few years and you get to know who they are, and they're all there...
We've not had any exhibition games against any Metro squads but again, the way his team moves the ball around and the competition they play against is the highest I've ever seen my boy play at.

I don't deny the cost concern for some parents - I'm sure its a stumbling block for a minority of some of these top players and their parents.

Do you know which club you're looking at for HPL?
I think someone mentioned earlier that searching out the TD's and coaches in your age group may also help your decision too.

Good luck,
RF

 

[steelie]

BTW...I have indeed heard of players not playing at the highest level due to financial restraqints. Did they bring the concern to the club? No.

I'd love to see your theory put to the test. steelie- if financial issues are indeed the major stumbling block, I highly encourage you to get your kid a trial. If he's selected, take the issue to the club, and let us know how it goes. You'll need to prepare a case, and likely show your T4s, familly expenses, etc., but if this is truly a reason, I hope you pursue it, and I hope the club would support your case.

Thanks for all your input guys i appreciate it. Financially I could put him in the HPL, my wife and I would make it work. The question I had was (and maybe I should have originally posted "is the HPL" worth the money)? I can see that this is a hot topic and am not looking to start or re hash a debate on whether the HPL is a good thing or not. I only want what is best for my son's development.

Thanks,

 

[cascadesoccer]

Not comparing hockey and soccer and I understand the differences in the two sports in Canada. Let's call a spade a spade here soccer will never surpass the stature of hockey. But improving soccer is what we are trying to do here....I think soccer will benefit from the HPL set up and going forward we will produce more local talent to represent our city, province and country than we have in the last 15 years in this province.

As far as bringing in the top players I have my doubts that local soccer politics will ever disappear. We played another metro team on the weekend who had at least 5 HPL quality players on the field. I asked the coach after the game why the boys were playing metro and he said that the parent's can't afford HPL as there jobs are this this and this....I commented that if there club got a franchise then I guess they wouldn't be able to afford it either?

It is never "no cost" for anything Elite. It has been said many times...parent's were already paying about the same or more for their soccer training and teams in the past. Talk to parent's of figure skaters, dance, etc and they all pay way more for a long shot at making anything. Personally, I look around and I have no idea how some of the families spend what they spend on soccer and they have three elite players from U10 to U13 in the family. For some families it is everything and their FIRST choice.

I would support HPL as it stands and would endorse my kid going for it if he had the ability and talent..Surrey United is at the top in the province for programming and value so I don't see the cost as the biggest part of the choice to do it or not.

I also agree with Captain: if you are a good player then you should still end up where you should be in the soccer landscape playing at YOUR level regardless of whether or not you are in HPL...but would argue that those kids WILL always get swept up and taken care of financially once the competitive juices of a real season kick in and everyone is wanting to win. I can't believe you are a socialist.

So they all end up in Poco or Man City, is what you're saying?

 

[Colin Elmes]

Your and my experiences with SYL seem to be different. I was involved with 4 teams (1 club), never costing more than $1100 (I think!?) to register, but nowhere near the $1500-2000 you quoted as costing. I don't have encyclopedic, nor will look it up, but I don't believe the other clubs cost that much, though Victoria and Okanagan would have had extra travel costs associated? I have no clue if they included those costs in their registration fees....? I was also part of 3 teams that went to Florida and I went once myself. The trip itself cost $1000 while food and any other shopping was whatever you were willing/able to spend. I have no clue if other teams included food in their Florida travel costs....nor if they were able to get the flights for about $1000/player as my teams were able. So that's only about $1100 per player for SYL plus $1000+food for Florida if your team qualified. The $1100 league registration fee per player didn't include hotel for the one or two road trips I don't believe....

As for metro - yes, as you noted the fee's varied quite widely....the combined total being NEAR $2500 or MORE than $2500 depending on the kid etc etc etc....not to mention it sounds as though a lot of metro/SYL kids were also playing in various academies....HPL appears to be "cheaper"???? The season is longer (seems most teams will take Dec-Jan off but then back to it....) and there is more exposure in HPL than there was in metro and SYL.

I don't know the BC PTP costs, but yes, it sounds like they were much more than SYL.

@Akslop - HPL guaranteed playing time is 30% over the course of the season (and maybe guaranteed starts??)....

Someone above here said they know of some kids that didn't try due to the costs being prohibitive for them - but I am glad you noted it was their choice to not even try, not the club who turned them away.....I'd be surprised to hear a club turn someone who can't afford HPL, but that means truly not being able to afford it - which doesn't account for the lower middle income folks who won't qualify for assistance I guess....?

The user pay model funds the HPL teams. Many have scholarships available(as does TSS) but if they were suddenly inundated with quality players who could not pay the costs there would be a critical mass at some point where money coming in wasn't hitting the mark.

 

[Colin Elmes]

Yes.
We were told at our parent meeting earlier in the year it's (I *think*) 30%.

I find it hard to believe that any Metro team from any club could touch my kid's team and/or have any other players that would deserve to be in his squad.
I'm sure there's a couple out there though, there always is.
In general, I think most, if not all, of the top players in my son's age group are playing HPL.
I've seen enough of them all over the last few years and you get to know who they are, and they're all there...
We've not had any exhibition games against any Metro squads but again, the way his team moves the ball around and the competition they play against is the highest I've ever seen my boy play at.

I don't deny the cost concern for some parents - I'm sure its a stumbling block for a minority of some of these top players and their parents.

Do you know which club you're looking at for HPL?
I think someone mentioned earlier that searching out the TD's and coaches in your age group may also help your decision too.

Good luck,
RF

What age is your boy and what Club?

 

[bettermirror]

Steelie - I would put him in HPL if he is good enough and you can afford it. I agree with an above poster that "most" if not all the best players are there....of course there will always be good teams and players at the 2nd tier, but the overall level won't be close. The HPL and Metro will be at it's closest in competitiveness at the u13 and u14 ages I suspect when registration remains high....

 

[Stuck in Bridge Traffic]

Is there Guaranteed playing time in the HPL?

Steelie,

There are kids just as good if not better than your child playing in the HPL. For arguement sake , lets say u drop the money for him toplay and he rides the pine for the year.. Is he okay with that? How does that affect him? Is he aware this scenario could very well unfold?
Life is about taking chances... Good on you for doing your homework.

P.S. if he is as good as u say he is , which country will he cap with and represent?

Guaranteed 33% I think (maybe 30%?) field time in game at the club my kid plays for.

I'm a very unhappy HPL dad atm. Biggest league issue is the substitution rule for the older teams; it's not in force at U13 (I think) so the OP will likely not hear of this from current U13 parents. We'll probably walk from HPL if this rule does not change by the start of the real first season in March 2012. There are a number of parents on our team saying the same and with the other team issues of the past 8 weeks, this team will likely not exist come the start of the season resulting in there being only 6 teams at our age level instead of 8.

For the OP.... as you are out in the Fraser Valley with long drives being the only way to get to the better football academies in the Vancouver area, if your kid has the talent and especially - desire - then HPL (via Abbotsford ?) is the best practical means to advance at his age. Even with all the issues our team is having this year, the training has exceeded what I would expect you'd see at Tier 2 due in large part to the desire of the other kids on the team who want to maximize their time. The training intensity is higher and more consistent. You'll not be seeing a handful of slacker kids who are half hearted about being there in the cold and rain. These HPL kids are all good people who are already over achieving at many things in life and bring that attitude to the field. Your kid will be in good company. I don't know if you can put a price tag on that.

.

 

[Colin Elmes]

You read Ciara McCormack's article?

Success comes from the Infrastructure

Iceland has 320,000 people. Sheesh.

Yes. lots of those stories out there. We suck.

 

[nocents]

The financial barriers existed before HPL came along. HPL is a symptom of the soccer culture in the lower mainland. HPL has highlighted the problem, but in reality has added very little cost to many already in the system.

Kids come home from school and they do not go out with their friends and play soccer. They play road hockey, basketball, do SFA (hang out or gaming), but rarely are they out playing soccer. So, what do parents with soccer on the brain kids do? They do what they can in their spare time and send them to private soccer training. 4-8 days a month costing $15-$30+ per session. There are a ton of these places around and don't forget the off season soccer camps. Like it or not there are many many parents out there putting $1k - $2+k per year into additional soccer training for their kids. All before the player even get to the MSL/HPL age. At U14 (or U14b depending on the club and year), parents were then being hit with a $700 - $1200 season cost for Select team play (2 practices + 1 game). If a player was really serious and good, then he/she was also encouraged to play SYL spring/summer soccer for around $1200 - $1400 (3 practices + 1 game). This is comparable to youth hockey in the lower mainland. And the whole "elite hockey players don't pay at age 15" is irrelevant to soccer. There is no semi-pro junior soccer system in the lower mainland or BC and there won't be within at least 20 years, if ever.

Regardless, by the time players hit U14 the financial disparity has already done its damage. Those with the drive and the money were typically the ones on the tier 1 teams. Easily the majority of last year's MSL players entering the system had been taking additional professional training. Don’t get me wrong, I like the academies, but that’s no way to build up grassroots youth soccer. I have to believe that the standard of play for the average youth recreational player in Canada is FAR below that in Europe or South America . The talent pool below the elite level gets pretty thin way too quick. I think this problem needs to be fixed before we tackle anything else. Kids from U12/U13 down need to be playing more soccer, small sided, structured and unstructured, and at a "low" cost. Solve this and I see the elite programs positively evolving structurally and financially.

Local and provincial governments are playing a large role in preventing youth participation in all sports. Play soccer on a grass field in North Van with your buddies and you’ll be facing a fine. Even if you could find AT field time (lol at finding anything available for youths right now), the costs is ridiculous. The soccer community must demand more from their local governments. We need more facilities and we should not be paying a premium. Leading the charge should be our community soccer clubs. They need to be our representatives to government and the community. I’d also like to see them take more initiative in organizing indoor and off-season leagues. Futsal is basically non-existent at the youth level in town.

We all hear ideas about how we could change the structure of the 1 hour/week games for the younger players, but even if there are positive changes the impact will be minimal. Youth soccer must be made more accessible and be played more often. Ultimately we need to change the culture of soccer in the lower mainland / BC and it will have to be bottom up.

 

[Rangerforever]

What age is your boy and what Club?

I wasn't trying to provoke a challenge neccessarily on here - Hope I didn't offend anyone.
Were my comments too bold for you?
Why do you ask?

U-15, Metro Ford

Here's a bold and challenging comment:

The Marine Drive Dolphins were overrated.

 

[Dude]

Dude is part of the 1%..

He laughs at us peasants...

He thinks us commoners are cute..

One time i heard him say , from his view up on top we all look like ants living in his ant farm...

Its Time to Occupy BCSA and CSA!

When I make my first billion, you all shall carry me around on a king sized litter, with matching mattress, and beautiful women who feed me grapes all day and make love to me when I please. And I'm not sharring.

 

[Colin Elmes]

I wasn't trying to provoke a challenge neccessarily on here - Hope I didn't offend anyone.
Were my comments too bold for you?
Why do you ask?

U-15, Metro Ford

Here's a bold and challenging comment:

The Marine Drive Dolphins were overrated.

No cause for alarm. I was just curious what age and Club your son was having a good experience at.....

Marine Drive- that was 30 years ago man. If you want to get me whipped up find something more current