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[VMSL 2007/08] Divisional Setup
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Absolutely right. The idea is to try and raise the level of amateur soccer. The idea is to concentrate the best players on fewer teams to "hothouse" their development and to raise the quality of play.
the insider
Member
Sorry I've been away for a while so I've missed something in the conversation... I've gone from being The Insider to The Outsider actually.
I gather there has been a divisional shake-up (or there is going to be). However, there isn't really anything on the VMSL site that explains it though. In fact all the divisions look exactly the same as they have done for a while now (except for the addition of Masters and a re-addition of a Div 3).
So I gather it is only 1 up 1 down between Premier and Div 1 now?
Does that mean there is going to be only one Div 1 group for 2008/09? How many teams in it then? There are 20 now so (if I'm understanding it right) there will be 4 relegated from Div 1 with only 2 going up that leaves 18... which is an odd number... or are more being relegated from Premier this year (which is actually what is needed) to bring it up to 20 again?
Enquiring minds want to know...
I gather there has been a divisional shake-up (or there is going to be). However, there isn't really anything on the VMSL site that explains it though. In fact all the divisions look exactly the same as they have done for a while now (except for the addition of Masters and a re-addition of a Div 3).
So I gather it is only 1 up 1 down between Premier and Div 1 now?
Does that mean there is going to be only one Div 1 group for 2008/09? How many teams in it then? There are 20 now so (if I'm understanding it right) there will be 4 relegated from Div 1 with only 2 going up that leaves 18... which is an odd number... or are more being relegated from Premier this year (which is actually what is needed) to bring it up to 20 again?
Enquiring minds want to know...
the insider said:
Yes.
3 down from Prem
1 up from div 1
4 down from div 1
2 up from div 2
Originally there was going to be 1 group of Div 1 with 20 teams this season, but the league had problems scheduling it. Instead the group A/B winners will playoff at the end for promotion.
the insider
Member
Cheers Dezza and BlazeArmy.
Does that also mean the Premier Division is going from two groups of 7 to one group of 12?
Ever since they split the CAT teams off from the rest we've had 30 or more Div 1 teams. In my opinion this has been the cause of the general diluted level of play throughout the league as players previously playing at Div 2 level were pushed up to make up the extra numbers in Div 1... and that in turn destroyed Div 3 as they were all promoted to make up the spaces in Div 2. My experience with the CAT system is that it is a good thing - but a plan should have been in place to gradually reduced the size of the Divisions (including CAT teams) back to the size which best reflected the talent level available. That means 10 Prem / 20 Div 1 / 40 Div 2 / 40 Div 3.
Does that also mean the Premier Division is going from two groups of 7 to one group of 12?
Ever since they split the CAT teams off from the rest we've had 30 or more Div 1 teams. In my opinion this has been the cause of the general diluted level of play throughout the league as players previously playing at Div 2 level were pushed up to make up the extra numbers in Div 1... and that in turn destroyed Div 3 as they were all promoted to make up the spaces in Div 2. My experience with the CAT system is that it is a good thing - but a plan should have been in place to gradually reduced the size of the Divisions (including CAT teams) back to the size which best reflected the talent level available. That means 10 Prem / 20 Div 1 / 40 Div 2 / 40 Div 3.
In my opinion, the CAT system only works if your club has a youth system such as Surrey United, MetroFord, Westside, etc. Small clubs like ours (Sporting) can't maintain one because we don't have enough young players coming up. We rely on getting players from other teams. It's a great idea but not feasible in the VMSL. And if you look at the CAT standings, the teams that are consistantly at the top of their divisions are the large clubs.
We as a club felt that the cost of running the CAT outweighed what we were getting in return. We will revisit the topic again at the end of the year, but we need a new CAT coach and that's probably one of the toughest positions to fill within a club. We did have a fairly young team, but I don't think we had enough players that could fill in on the Premier side. It's difficult to find players that can play games in Premier but don't mind being on the CAT team.
the insider
Member
Gomesy,
I have sympathy for your situation. I have managed and coached a reserve team like your CAT in a league (just below semi-pro) here in the UK for 4 seasons. It really is a thankless job. However, I do still think there is merit to the CAT system.
I was involved with Bombastic and while they're not likely to threaten the big clubs very soon they've grown from one team to 3 men's (A, B and Masters) and 2 women's sides. The larger number of players allows the club to generate more revenue (sponsors are much more interested in a group of 75 instead of just 15). I think the introduction of the CAT system was a big benefit to the club. Perhaps it's very different when you have to fund a Premier team (I assume no one pays their own fees at that level). We found it worked much better if the teams were operated on the field as seperate entities - allowing loyality and familiarity with teammates to develop. Players were only moved between sides as a way to make up the numbers on a given day.
Raphael Benetiz recently commented that he would like to a Liverpool 2nd team competing in the Championship or Ligue 1. This is how he has experienced Reserve teams in Spain and I believe the same thing happens in Italy. These players (most young) get to play and develop in a real competition where winning is more important. I believe we had a similar situation (at least the beginning of it) when the CAT system was first introduced to the VMSL. I know many of you have complained that the Premier is diluted at 14 instead of 10 teams but because of the way the CAT teams were split off from the others - it is actually far worse at the Div 1 and Div 2 level.
I have sympathy for your situation. I have managed and coached a reserve team like your CAT in a league (just below semi-pro) here in the UK for 4 seasons. It really is a thankless job. However, I do still think there is merit to the CAT system.
I was involved with Bombastic and while they're not likely to threaten the big clubs very soon they've grown from one team to 3 men's (A, B and Masters) and 2 women's sides. The larger number of players allows the club to generate more revenue (sponsors are much more interested in a group of 75 instead of just 15). I think the introduction of the CAT system was a big benefit to the club. Perhaps it's very different when you have to fund a Premier team (I assume no one pays their own fees at that level). We found it worked much better if the teams were operated on the field as seperate entities - allowing loyality and familiarity with teammates to develop. Players were only moved between sides as a way to make up the numbers on a given day.
Raphael Benetiz recently commented that he would like to a Liverpool 2nd team competing in the Championship or Ligue 1. This is how he has experienced Reserve teams in Spain and I believe the same thing happens in Italy. These players (most young) get to play and develop in a real competition where winning is more important. I believe we had a similar situation (at least the beginning of it) when the CAT system was first introduced to the VMSL. I know many of you have complained that the Premier is diluted at 14 instead of 10 teams but because of the way the CAT teams were split off from the others - it is actually far worse at the Div 1 and Div 2 level.
You make a good point. I know one of the big draw backs from the CAT division is that there really is nothing to play for. Only a handfull of players actually have a chance of being called up, but the majority of the players don't. Last year was exceptionally tough for our CAT team. They weren't allowed to participate in the Div 1 Cup and essentional had nothing to play for. There's no promotion or demotion. I think something has to change with the system.
I am not sure what will improve the quality of the Premier division or the overall VMSL but I am no longer convinced that the best teams and players are concentrated in the league like in the late 1980s and mid 1990s for sure.
The entire package of proposals that the Azzi administration has brought in are really not standing the test of time:
1. Expansion of Premier to 14 teams
2. Elimination of Div 3
3. CAT system to form clubs
I don't think there is one single thing that will improve the VMSL quickly as I don't think it is a matter of the number of teams in Premier that is the driving force behind the quality of play at that level.
What is needed rathering than tinkering with the number of teams and divisions is an NHL style Competition Committee including players that can address the broader issues of what is wrong with the VMSL or at least address the questions:
1. What will make the VMSL the dominant league in BC soccer again?
2. What is working now, what isn't working and needs to be changed?
3. What can be done to improve overall competitiveness of the league and attract the best players to the league?
The expansion of Premier to 14 was the bringing in of two Surrey teams with the one going back to the FVSL but that hasn't been a huge issue for quality.
Let's assume that critics are right - that there has been a decline in the quality of the VMSL overall and that the VMSL is no longer THE league the best players want to play in. It is clear that some very good players are in the FVSL and other leagues like possibly Richmond or they just play summer.
The major reason for the decline in the VMSL has been the reduction of the number of teams playing competitive soccer and fighting for promotion and relegation due to the CAT system. This combined with the elimination of Div 3 and expanding Div 2 has eroded the attractiveness of the league and not accomplished the stated goals.
CAT can't work given the rules governing Province and National cup draws where the CAT players unless on a Premier form can't play so trying to be like Man United or teams in Serie A is flawed from the start.
Eliminating Div 3 as I recall Willi saying it was to rid the league of the brawl and discipline issues that were mainly in Div 3 at the time. Part of this thinking was that the booted out teams would lead to lots of parks being available but it hasn't as these teams in many cases likely took their allocations to other leagues. It also forced I think some not so good teams to Div 2.
Why would you not want a strong competitive league with everyone VMSL player and team forced to compete for promotion or at least to fight to avoid relegation.
I am not posting this at 4 am as it seems as it is Wednesday 7 pm here.
The entire package of proposals that the Azzi administration has brought in are really not standing the test of time:
1. Expansion of Premier to 14 teams
2. Elimination of Div 3
3. CAT system to form clubs
I don't think there is one single thing that will improve the VMSL quickly as I don't think it is a matter of the number of teams in Premier that is the driving force behind the quality of play at that level.
What is needed rathering than tinkering with the number of teams and divisions is an NHL style Competition Committee including players that can address the broader issues of what is wrong with the VMSL or at least address the questions:
1. What will make the VMSL the dominant league in BC soccer again?
2. What is working now, what isn't working and needs to be changed?
3. What can be done to improve overall competitiveness of the league and attract the best players to the league?
The expansion of Premier to 14 was the bringing in of two Surrey teams with the one going back to the FVSL but that hasn't been a huge issue for quality.
Let's assume that critics are right - that there has been a decline in the quality of the VMSL overall and that the VMSL is no longer THE league the best players want to play in. It is clear that some very good players are in the FVSL and other leagues like possibly Richmond or they just play summer.
The major reason for the decline in the VMSL has been the reduction of the number of teams playing competitive soccer and fighting for promotion and relegation due to the CAT system. This combined with the elimination of Div 3 and expanding Div 2 has eroded the attractiveness of the league and not accomplished the stated goals.
CAT can't work given the rules governing Province and National cup draws where the CAT players unless on a Premier form can't play so trying to be like Man United or teams in Serie A is flawed from the start.
Eliminating Div 3 as I recall Willi saying it was to rid the league of the brawl and discipline issues that were mainly in Div 3 at the time. Part of this thinking was that the booted out teams would lead to lots of parks being available but it hasn't as these teams in many cases likely took their allocations to other leagues. It also forced I think some not so good teams to Div 2.
Why would you not want a strong competitive league with everyone VMSL player and team forced to compete for promotion or at least to fight to avoid relegation.
I am not posting this at 4 am as it seems as it is Wednesday 7 pm here.
the insider
Member
That's interesting because Columbus Clan were able to call on Garret Kusch (registered as a B level player) for Nationals. Certainly this is a precedent for Premier Division clubs to use in future. If their CAT teams are registered on B forms then they should be able to call them up for Nationals if necessary. Regardless you wouldn't be able to call up these players without the CAT system either.
The idea wasn't originally to get rid of Div 3 at all. The new CAT teams were supposed to be entered into Div 3. The parks (in Vancouver) weren't such a problem because the league owns the allotments.
The clubs did add the CAT teams. So, there were actually the same number of teams in the league after the elimination of Div 3. However, the clubs could not get over the stigma of the 'Div 3' label. They wanted Div 2 or Div 1 spots. So instead of selling a new and improved Div 3 to the clubs the league caved in, dropped Div 3 and created more spots in Div 1 and 2 to accomodate those new teams.
If those new teams had been put into Div 3 they would have had to work their way up the ladder and endured promotion/relegation. I think the league also helped this situation by promoting the U21 Division as second in stature to Premier. You would always see reference to Premier, then U21, then Div 1 etc. U21 teams should have been listed as below (the new/improved) Div 3 with those youngsters being encouraged to work they're way up through their club's open age CAT teams once they had turned old enough.
I don't know how to do it now that we're in deep with so many teams in div 1 and 2 but...the structure of the VISL is clearly the way to go. 10 teams in each div and as many divisions as needed. I believe they go down to Div 7 currently. Not the best situation for a team to start way down there if they have the quality to play at the top...but they can always buy a spot I suppose.
Clarification -
I am not sure it changed from my coaching days, but the CAT players can be brought up for Nationals just like you mentioned as long as the Player was signed for Premier which most of the teams will do to ensure they have as big a roster as possible to draw from. In other words, some of these clubs may have few players on Premier forms to protect them from injury or work/school situations where a player can't travel.
My comments on eliminating Div 3 were what I recall I was told by Willi himself.
The other comments about adding lower divisions like the VISL is interesting. In the old days of the Mainland League when the PCSL played out of Callister, there were as I recall 4 divisions in the Mainland League but this was before O/35s etc.
The reality is that CAT isn't working. Trying to duplicate some professional club system where players work for low wages for the chance to win big and get to the top leagues is ridiculous for the VMSL.
Look at senior lacrosse locally and the draft system for Premier team players possibly as a model that would be far better than the CAT system. But that then requires a whole lot more infrastructure.
Everyone thinks CAT is a joke. Ask the players.
What clubs use CAT as it is supposed to be used now.
Gomesy's comments on just a few CAT guys having a shot at the top and nothing to play for are spot on too. In fact the first two years of CAT where I was coaching a CAT team we tried to enter the Imperial much like my Div 2 did some years back to make it to the final 8 but with the transfers required to the Premier team we barely fielded a team making the cup entry a joke. Similarly when we tried for the Div 1 cup. I was scrambling at the end of the year to find players to sign for the game. Another disaster.
I am not sure it changed from my coaching days, but the CAT players can be brought up for Nationals just like you mentioned as long as the Player was signed for Premier which most of the teams will do to ensure they have as big a roster as possible to draw from. In other words, some of these clubs may have few players on Premier forms to protect them from injury or work/school situations where a player can't travel.
My comments on eliminating Div 3 were what I recall I was told by Willi himself.
The other comments about adding lower divisions like the VISL is interesting. In the old days of the Mainland League when the PCSL played out of Callister, there were as I recall 4 divisions in the Mainland League but this was before O/35s etc.
The reality is that CAT isn't working. Trying to duplicate some professional club system where players work for low wages for the chance to win big and get to the top leagues is ridiculous for the VMSL.
Look at senior lacrosse locally and the draft system for Premier team players possibly as a model that would be far better than the CAT system. But that then requires a whole lot more infrastructure.
Everyone thinks CAT is a joke. Ask the players.
What clubs use CAT as it is supposed to be used now.
Gomesy's comments on just a few CAT guys having a shot at the top and nothing to play for are spot on too. In fact the first two years of CAT where I was coaching a CAT team we tried to enter the Imperial much like my Div 2 did some years back to make it to the final 8 but with the transfers required to the Premier team we barely fielded a team making the cup entry a joke. Similarly when we tried for the Div 1 cup. I was scrambling at the end of the year to find players to sign for the game. Another disaster.
sandbagger
New Member
I think the CAT system could work quite well if you had buy-in from all the clubs. Our club uses the CAT system the way it is intended. On our premier team we have 2 regular starters and 4 or 5 "subs" who play both premier and CAT every weekend. We also have 4 or 5 others who may be premier players in a couple of years, but are not quite ready yet. These players are young and talented and don't mind the system.
There's one major problem though. They RARELY, IF EVER, play in a competitive game because 80% of the CAT teams are shite. Most of the premier clubs have either no CAT team or no interest in developing their own players. Therefore, in my opinion, the system is failing miserably.
My solution would be to eliminate CAT and instead allow for in-club transfers between clubs in all divisions up until a certain date. This would be a system similar to the orange-card system in the Masters league, where players can play both Masters and premier up to a declaration date.
I imagine that the argument against this is that, in theory, Premier clubs could stack lower division teams to assist in promotion. Who cares? This would only take place early in the season and would improve the level of competition in all divisions.
There's one major problem though. They RARELY, IF EVER, play in a competitive game because 80% of the CAT teams are shite. Most of the premier clubs have either no CAT team or no interest in developing their own players. Therefore, in my opinion, the system is failing miserably.
My solution would be to eliminate CAT and instead allow for in-club transfers between clubs in all divisions up until a certain date. This would be a system similar to the orange-card system in the Masters league, where players can play both Masters and premier up to a declaration date.
I imagine that the argument against this is that, in theory, Premier clubs could stack lower division teams to assist in promotion. Who cares? This would only take place early in the season and would improve the level of competition in all divisions.
the insider
Member
I think Sandbagger's idea is a good one - it sounds more like the CAT system as it was originally intended by the person that came up with it (Ole Qvist).
By the way, the CAT system was not based on professional leagues - it was based on how it's done in European amateur leagues. In Ole's case he was thinking of how it worked in Denmark. Azzi would have been thinking about Italy.
In the league I have been involved with in England (Kent County) we have Reserve Teams like the pros - but, in my opinion it doesn't work. Our Reserve sides play on the same day and at the same time as the first team. Pro reserve sides play in a different Reserve league midweek. That's how it should be done if you are trying to develop players. The VMSL somewhat accomplishes this with different teams playing on Saturdays and Sundays but that is by more coincidence than planning.
However, we also have 3 teams in my club in London that play in the 'Old Boys' league. Teams are recreational - although it is still 'Saturday league' and not 'Sunday League' football - for some reason that's a big deal here. That doesn't mean the standard of play is garbage (although some of it is). There just isn't any pretense to it being part of the 'player development' system.
They compete in a league organized more like the VISL (except much larger). The league starts to become regionalized at the lower levels (sort of like the Metro Women's League). You can't have more than one team in a Division but players are registered to the club and not the team - they are interchangable (there are no ID cards either). However, players are only moved around as a favour to help out a team that is short on the day. Here is a link to the league I'm thinking of... it's actually called the Amateur Football Combination now...
Amateur Football Combination
Sometimes I wonder if the VMSL is trying to be all things to all people. Maybe it should be a two Division league (Prem and Div 1A & Div 1B - 30 clubs) and the rest should form a Vancouver league along the lines of the Burnaby and Richmond. Richmond and Burnaby clubs would then drop their 2nd and 3rd teams into their local leagues as well. That way clubs could enter teams into each league according to the level the players want to play. Why should every team in a club play in the same league?
The lower div groups are just an after thought in the VMSL anyway. This was the case even when Gil McGarva was in charge. Look at the Excellent site and see their Archives. Is there any record of Div 1/Div 2 or Div 3 (when there was one) Cup winners? Division winners? Who was promoted/relegated each season. The only division that rates a 'Golden Boot' award is Premier as well.
Or maybe each Divisional grouping needs it's own Director on the Board to organize these things.
By the way, the CAT system was not based on professional leagues - it was based on how it's done in European amateur leagues. In Ole's case he was thinking of how it worked in Denmark. Azzi would have been thinking about Italy.
In the league I have been involved with in England (Kent County) we have Reserve Teams like the pros - but, in my opinion it doesn't work. Our Reserve sides play on the same day and at the same time as the first team. Pro reserve sides play in a different Reserve league midweek. That's how it should be done if you are trying to develop players. The VMSL somewhat accomplishes this with different teams playing on Saturdays and Sundays but that is by more coincidence than planning.
However, we also have 3 teams in my club in London that play in the 'Old Boys' league. Teams are recreational - although it is still 'Saturday league' and not 'Sunday League' football - for some reason that's a big deal here. That doesn't mean the standard of play is garbage (although some of it is). There just isn't any pretense to it being part of the 'player development' system.
They compete in a league organized more like the VISL (except much larger). The league starts to become regionalized at the lower levels (sort of like the Metro Women's League). You can't have more than one team in a Division but players are registered to the club and not the team - they are interchangable (there are no ID cards either). However, players are only moved around as a favour to help out a team that is short on the day. Here is a link to the league I'm thinking of... it's actually called the Amateur Football Combination now...
Amateur Football Combination
Sometimes I wonder if the VMSL is trying to be all things to all people. Maybe it should be a two Division league (Prem and Div 1A & Div 1B - 30 clubs) and the rest should form a Vancouver league along the lines of the Burnaby and Richmond. Richmond and Burnaby clubs would then drop their 2nd and 3rd teams into their local leagues as well. That way clubs could enter teams into each league according to the level the players want to play. Why should every team in a club play in the same league?
The lower div groups are just an after thought in the VMSL anyway. This was the case even when Gil McGarva was in charge. Look at the Excellent site and see their Archives. Is there any record of Div 1/Div 2 or Div 3 (when there was one) Cup winners? Division winners? Who was promoted/relegated each season. The only division that rates a 'Golden Boot' award is Premier as well.
Or maybe each Divisional grouping needs it's own Director on the Board to organize these things.
So here's a question: If you were to get rid of the CAT system, how would it be done? It would be a messy process for sure both from a league standpoint: integrating all the teams back into one stream, and (to a lesser degree) a club one: getting the bubble players on the right teams.
Westside has one of the largest CAT systems in place. I can potentially play with no less than 7 teams being a Masters-carded player. The Masters teams use it to make sure we can field a team and be competitive (it takes some communication between the squads). I'm not sure if it's used much in Open play but I do see the odd email go out for teams needing keepers.
I would tend to agree that the system has weakened the league. I think the notion that you can legislate such a change in operations (read: ram a concept down someone's throat) can now be put to rest in the VMSL.
Westside has one of the largest CAT systems in place. I can potentially play with no less than 7 teams being a Masters-carded player. The Masters teams use it to make sure we can field a team and be competitive (it takes some communication between the squads). I'm not sure if it's used much in Open play but I do see the odd email go out for teams needing keepers.
I would tend to agree that the system has weakened the league. I think the notion that you can legislate such a change in operations (read: ram a concept down someone's throat) can now be put to rest in the VMSL.
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