Div 1 VMSL Div 1 Alignment 2009/10

[trece verde]

Simple answer again folks....

If you don't like the executive group you've got, don't keep voting them in. This also means you have to be prepared to replace them with something better. Little more difficult than being sheep, isn't it? WA only gets re-elected if nobody opposes him.

 

[whataboutbob]

There seems to be a bombshell proposal dropped that gives everyone a minute or 2 to think about it while a couple of people muster up a question or 2 and then if there's a few seconds of silence, a vote goes ahead. I would rather see the restructure proposals released a week ahead of time so some thoughtful discussion can be had and a meaningful vote at the AGM.

1. The way it was presented at the AGM was unfair.
After I left the AGM, some of us discussed an amendment for the next AGM - one that should have been in place prior to this one. All financials, league re-alignments, or any other executive proposals must be outlined to all members 2 weeks prior to the AGM. Or something like that.

2. I was on the Restructuring Committee
The people on the committee were given set parametres, and then were asked to re-align the league within those guidelines given to us. We were not asked our opinion on the Super league or if the VMSL should be involved. Nor were we asked about how many teams were in the league, or asked to figure how the super league would all work. We were just there to propose what we thought was the best for the VMSL as a whole based on the parametres in front of us.

3. I voted in favour of the new league
I think this would be best for BC soccer - perhaps not for the VMSL. (I also think there would be more media coverage for soccer and the "elite" teams.) Although we mostly agree that the best teams are in the VMSL, there are still some good teams outside of it. And I would love to see Gorge and Bays, and an improved PAU against the VMSL's best on a regular basis. Perhaps in the 1st season the competition against some Valley teams and an Island team will be weak, but over a year or two, equilibrium will be set through relegation. Ultimately, most of the best teams will be playing against each other. (My guess: 7 Metro, 2 Island, 1 Valley).


Note
If a VMSL team was relegated from the BC league, it would not effect any Div 1, 2, or 3 teams, nor would it effect promotion/relegation within the VMSL. The VMSL Premier league would always fluctuate between 10 - 12 teams depending on teams being relegated from the BC league. 11 teams would mean a BYE for 1 team every week.

BTW, how is this new league bad for soccer in BC?

 

[utah]

I think this league is a step forward for amateur soccer in general. All egos and other programs aside. VMSL and FVSL are watered down once you get past the top 3-4 teams.

The BCPL will be competative and I feel you may have some interesting try outs for the Valley teams that get promoted to this league. Once the VMSL top four are sorted out that is still going to leave alot of talented lower mainland players looking for a place to play top soccer.

 

[johnnybluenose]

I agree wholeheartedly with Utah from my perch in the peanut gallery.

How the individual leagues other divisions cope is irrelevant.

Club and League loyalties will be most assuredly thrown out the window with this new league.

If you have 6 VMSL teams, 3 Valley Teams, and 3 island teams you know damn well that you will see clubs like Langley United, PAU, Chilli (maybe, the distance leaves a lot to be desired), Poco, ACBC, and GEU doing their best to poach players being relegated out of the new Super League or from VMSL teams that didn't make the League. If Joe Sixpack is the best midfielder in the league, but plays on a team that finishes 7th in the VMSL, he might be tempted to leave and head to a PAU or LUFC to play in this league, bringing 2 or 3 other great players with him, or bolt to another team in the VMSL that made the grade fr promotion.

The balance of power has always been at the VMSL teams, but you cannot honestly tell me that all the best players live and reside closest to the VMSL teams. There are going to be a bunch of great VMSL'ers that live in the Langley or Pitt Meadows areas that will now jump ship from a VMSL average or bottom team to play closer to home and in the new league.
And at the end of every season the musical chairs will happen again with more defections, player swaps etc... At the end of the day the games will be more entertaining, more watchable, you will have more coverage (potentially) in newspapers etc.

How it falls out to the Home League prem and D1 divisions is their league's issues. Overall this new league is going to be boss for the guys like me that want to watch as much good footy as they can, and this WILL mean better BC representation at Nationals, how could it not!?

The other trickle down effect through the ranks of D1, D2, D3 etc should pave the way for either:
A) New Divisions at the bottom of the leagues that would be purely recreational in nature and not subject to promotion relegation or;
B) New Leagues that do not go BC Soccer, or don't submit A Forms and do not compete in BC Soccer tourneys etc for the weekend warriors that are just there for the pints and Sunday footy.

this way the leagues divisions could be more streamlined, without the glut of average and watered down play in D1 and D2 of the leagues... making for better B Form representation at the BC Provincials and smaller first div's in the home leagues.

 

[whataboutbob]

Simple answer again folks....

If you don't like the executive group you've got, don't keep voting them in. This also means you have to be prepared to replace them with something better. Little more difficult than being sheep, isn't it? WA only gets re-elected if nobody opposes him.

Always remember, a CEO or President of a corporation or organization is there to give vision - his vision - of what or where the group that elected him should follow. That is a leader. Leaders put their opinion forward, work towards it, and try to convince the group to follow. That is what he has done.
Most people have criticized Azzi for just being a care-taker of the VMSL and nothing else. Well now he has put his stamp on this organization, and I say it's about time. I congratulate him on moving forward with this. I don't care if you agree or disagree, at least he showed some vision.

 

[dezza]

Always remember, a CEO or President of a corporation or organization is there to give vision - his vision - of what or where the group that elected him should follow. That is a leader. Leaders put their opinion forward, work towards it, and try to convince the group to follow. That is what he has done.
Most people have criticized Azzi for just being a care-taker of the VMSL and nothing else. Well now he has put his stamp on this organization, and I say it's about time. I congratulate him on moving forward with this. I don't care if you agree or disagree, at least he showed some vision.

I have a vision too... it involves an updated website design

 

[Regs]

That's not your vision though

 

[Captain Shamrock]

How is the new league good for the majority of the teams? It's not.

As for how things went at the initial meeting with the VMSL Premier teams.......I found out that SEVEN of the teams there voted NO.......I heard the president of the league said he wouldn't even bring it to the AGM or the next step if half of the teams voted no.........7 out of 12? Hmmmmmmmmm. It is a logistical nightmare and the majority of the teams will not benefit anything from the new league.....


What is bad about it? COST is number one.........Let's start with that.

 

[cloughie]

idiot

 

[johnnybluenose]

Captain,

In my humble opinion you are out to lunch.

There is no point of having any divisions that are "better" than any others if you support that argument.

The whole point of competitive footy is to be competitive. How do you make the elite senior soccer more competitive in BC? Make a super league for the home leagues to send their best.

Cost is minimally more than normal. You will have a few ferry trips, big deal. If anyone should be upset about cost it would be the VISL teams, and you don't hear them griping about the new league. I'd bet a large number of guys already commute a great amount of distance to play for the likes of West Van, RCIU, Croatia, Inter, Etc. Guys living in the Valley but playing for VMSL team might like the new lack of commuting for games.

As far as the majority of the teams... if you don't like not being there in the new league, you have an option: Get Better and qualify.

That might be a bit too easy to say, but I don't see how this league is bad except for potential mismanagement of the rest of the home leagues by not getting the divisions more streamlined, cutting the fat and deadweight teams out (the ones not affiliated to working clubs etc that are inconsistent year to year etc, the ones always merging with others to create new "Clubs") , and overall improving the game for those that want to watch and play good football.

Most of the "rest of the VMSL Prem teams" and good VMSL D1 teams will care because they will lose all of the better players to FVSL teams looking to improve, or to the VMSL teams that do qualify.

Who says the entitlement of "better football" belongs to the VMSL? Just because it always has been doesn't make it right or doesn't mean it cannot change.

I would seriously watch out for big improvements to:
-Langley
-PAU
-Poco
-GEU

Like or not, these are the biggest suburban spaces where a large group of people live. They are also home to the strength of the FVSL. Once players start the migration the VMSL depth might fall a notch or two, and the Valley will come up. It's an inevitability imho.

 

[dezza]

jbn, do you have anything to support this theory of top players playing vmsl and living in the valley or are you just talking out of your arse?

also, this thread is about vmsl div 1; not valley muckers. try to stay on topic. k? thx.

 

[whataboutbob]

How is the new league good for the majority of the teams? It's not.

As for how things went at the initial meeting with the VMSL Premier teams.......I found out that SEVEN of the teams there voted NO.......I heard the president of the league said he wouldn't even bring it to the AGM or the next step if half of the teams voted no.........7 out of 12? Hmmmmmmmmm. It is a logistical nightmare and the majority of the teams will not benefit anything from the new league.....


What is bad about it? COST is number one.........Let's start with that.

Cost of traveling has come up. The league will likely be pitching in a portion of it. Where it comes from is anyone's guess. I would seriously start with reducing the honourariums paid to the executive. $30,000 a year, come on!

I think it will improve the quality of elite football in BC. And I think most in BC senior soccer want our elite to compete better on the national stage.The BC league is not good for the majority of the VMSL teams, but I was in Div 1 and most teams were the shits (and we were on the good side!). Div 2 reps say the same thing - brutal soccer and the gap between the good and bad is massive., So a re-alignment in Div 1 and 2 was much needed to make things more competitive week to week. I think the 10 team D1 does this.

I can't see it being a logistical nightmare. For the BC teams, the main issue will be time commitment of players and managers. For the rest of the VMSL teams, it'll be business as usual.

As for the Premier league meeting, more team reps agreed with forming a BC league. The big issue is that it was supposed to have at least 6 VMSL teams, not 4. BIG issue. That changed at the AGM - 12 teams down to 10 - and we all found out that night.

 

[johnnybluenose]

jbn, do you have anything to support this theory of top players playing vmsl and living in the valley or are you just talking out of your arse?

also, this thread is about vmsl div 1; not valley muckers. try to stay on topic. k? thx.

No, not at all. I am 100% assuming that ALL the players on VMSL Premier Team live in their VMSL neighborhoods, just like all my Langley United clubmates ALL live in Langley

I never said all top players either...
If you are the best player (good enough to feature for the VMSL all-stars or get a mention in an Azzi's Superlative week in review ) on a midpack or below average VMSL Premier Team and you are not going to play in the BC premier league and live in White Rock are you not going to consider tapping the boys at PAU on the shoulder for a "tryout"

I know Vancouver based guys playing in Surrey. I know a Surrey based guy that played in West Van last year. I know Langley guys playing in Maple Ridge, I know guys go play where they can and are wanted.

I cannot imagine that every RCIU player lives in Richmond. Suppose for a second they did though, and they finished 7th at the end of this upcoming season. You don't think those guys would hop into the tunnel and take the 99 out to the 32nd Ave exit and the short clip up to the SSAP to suit up for PAU if they could get minutes in the BCPL?

What about guys living in Surrey/Langley and playing for Norvan?

and so on, and so on...

 

[dezza]

The BC league is not good for the majority of the VMSL teams, but I was in Div 1 and most teams were the shits (and we were on the good side!). Div 2 reps say the same thing - brutal soccer and the gap between the good and bad is massive., So a re-alignment in Div 1 and 2 was much needed to make things more competitive week to week. I think the 10 team D1 does this.

Fair point, but while this may create a more competitive Div 1, Div 2 still has 30 teams and the huge disparity from top to bottom. To make things worse, half the teams that have been playing at least a decent standard of Div 1 footy are going to get relegated to D2 and are going to be stuck there for a while (how many can you promote/relegate to/from div 1 each year with only 10 teams total?) while the gap between D1 and D2 grows wider!

All you've done is push the problem down 1 level. You haven't actually solved it.

 

[dezza]

No, not at all. I am 100% assuming that ALL the players on VMSL Premier Team live in their VMSL neighborhoods, just like all my Langley United clubmates ALL live in Langley

I never said all top players either...
If you are the best player (good enough to feature for the VMSL all-stars or get a mention in an Azzi's Superlative week in review ) on a midpack or below average VMSL Premier Team and you are not going to play in the BC premier league and live in White Rock are you not going to consider tapping the boys at PAU on the shoulder for a "tryout"

I know Vancouver based guys playing in Surrey. I know a Surrey based guy that played in West Van last year. I know Langley guys playing in Maple Ridge, I know guys go play where they can and are wanted.

I cannot imagine that every RCIU player lives in Richmond. Suppose for a second they did though, and they finished 7th at the end of this upcoming season. You don't think those guys would hop into the tunnel and take the 99 out to the 32nd Ave exit and the short clip up to the SSAP to suit up for PAU if they could get minutes in the BCPL?

What about guys living in Surrey/Langley and playing for Norvan?

and so on, and so on...

Thanks Mr. FVSL Cheerleader. Could you jock the PAU boys any harder? Maybe they'll invite you to the next calendar photo shoot.

 

[Captain Shamrock]

Captain,

In my humble opinion you are out to lunch.

There is no point of having any divisions that are "better" than any others if you support that argument.

The whole point of competitive footy is to be competitive. How do you make the elite senior soccer more competitive in BC? Make a super league for the home leagues to send their best.

Cost is minimally more than normal. You will have a few ferry trips, big deal. If anyone should be upset about cost it would be the VISL teams, and you don't hear them griping about the new league. I'd bet a large number of guys already commute a great amount of distance to play for the likes of West Van, RCIU, Croatia, Inter, Etc. Guys living in the Valley but playing for VMSL team might like the new lack of commuting for games.

As far as the majority of the teams... if you don't like not being there in the new league, you have an option: Get Better and qualify.

That might be a bit too easy to say, but I don't see how this league is bad except for potential mismanagement of the rest of the home leagues by not getting the divisions more streamlined, cutting the fat and deadweight teams out (the ones not affiliated to working clubs etc that are inconsistent year to year etc, the ones always merging with others to create new "Clubs&quot , and overall improving the game for those that want to watch and play good football.

Most of the "rest of the VMSL Prem teams" and good VMSL D1 teams will care because they will lose all of the better players to FVSL teams looking to improve, or to the VMSL teams that do qualify.

Who says the entitlement of "better football" belongs to the VMSL? Just because it always has been doesn't make it right or doesn't mean it cannot change.

I would seriously watch out for big improvements to:
-Langley
-PAU
-Poco
-GEU

Like or not, these are the biggest suburban spaces where a large group of people live. They are also home to the strength of the FVSL. Once players start the migration the VMSL depth might fall a notch or two, and the Valley will come up. It's an inevitability imho.

I will only answer your first 'point'. I'm not out to lunch. This new league is a ****ing joke and will NOT better B.C. soccer and the chance of starting to win National Championships.....So, Johnnyknoweverything.......when the first 4 teams in the VMSL next year decline the 'super league', and the 5th and 6th placed teams do the same thing, will we have the best league in B.C? Let's see you side-step this one. You can't. But then again, I'm out to lunch so I'll get my coat.

 

[johnnybluenose]

Why is the new league a joke?

I am not privvy to any inside information, I'm just calling it the way I see it, from info I have gleaned from here and from talking to a few guys that seem to have a handle on what is shaking down... If the top 4 teams in the VMSL next year decline I would call it politicking and even go as far as to say being protectionist.

The new league is a joke only to VMSL teams that are worried that there may finally be a power shift. That is the only explanation. The Valley sides are not worried about cost or logisitical issues as far as I'm aware, and the folks that would have all the motivation in the world to gripe about travel costs (the Island) are not. So why then, dezza, Captain, etc is costs and logistics such a big deal to the VMSL crowd? It's not like you are spending anymore time and money driving from Langley to the Ferry to catch at game at the log than it would be to leave from Burnaby or Vancouver...

Why would the top 4 teams decline? What would their motivation be?

Why does the VMSL act like an autonomous island?

The VISL and FVSL have, in my view from the sidelines anyways, finally a vehicle to attract some better talent and also get some games going other than just "all-star games" and Provincials with the Island weirdos.

from reading some points here the only joke I see is the VMSL's sense of entitlement to the best players because that is status quo...

In my estimation it is not the way forward to bettering the lot in life in these parts form Senior Soccer.

Just my humble $0.02 worth.

 

[Captain Shamrock]

Why is the new league a joke?

I am not privvy to any inside information, I'm just calling it the way I see it, from info I have gleaned from here and from talking to a few guys that seem to have a handle on what is shaking down... If the top 4 teams in the VMSL next year decline I would call it politicking and even go as far as to say being protectionist.

The new league is a joke only to VMSL teams that are worried that there may finally be a power shift. That is the only explanation. The Valley sides are not worried about cost or logisitical issues as far as I'm aware, and the folks that would have all the motivation in the world to gripe about travel costs (the Island) are not. So why then, dezza, Captain, etc is costs and logistics such a big deal to the VMSL crowd? It's not like you are spending anymore time and money driving from Langley to the Ferry to catch at game at the log than it would be to leave from Burnaby or Vancouver...

Why would the top 4 teams decline? What would their motivation be?

Why does the VMSL act like an autonomous island?

The VISL and FVSL have, in my view from the sidelines anyways, finally a vehicle to attract some better talent and also get some games going other than just "all-star games" and Provincials with the Island weirdos.

from reading some points here the only joke I see is the VMSL's sense of entitlement to the best players because that is status quo...

In my estimation it is not the way forward to bettering the lot in life in these parts form Senior Soccer.

Just my humble $0.02 worth.

Did you go over to the Island for any Provincial games this year, JKE? Our mens' team did and it cost us a total of just under $1500 to play for the cars of the players, executive, and the cost to get on the ferry. This was a day trip which did not involve a night of staying over. I'm sure most of the Valley teams would be thrilled at having to pay this sort of money.

As for teams declining.......West Van, the treble winner this year and obviously the best team in BC.....has a great thing going with their Friday night games with the Masters and Premier team. They have this night for a reason. It's great for club/team comradery and this would be wiped out with the new league. There is no way league games will be allowed to be played on Friday night when teams from the Island and maybe even the Valley for that matter have to play them. There is a reason why that many teams chose to vote against it and I know that one of the reasons has NOTHING to do with keeping the best players in the VMSL? Where the **** did that come from? Do you honestly think that a player living in Vancouver is now going to make the trek to Chilliwack if they make it to the 'Super League'? No chance.

The vote to start this league was a farce and the only thing more farcical will be the league itself, especially when teams start declining the 'right' to go to the league. Surely BC Soccer can't FORCE teams to move into this league if they choose not to.

BTW, how would Provinicials work in this new Super League? How many teams from the VMSL Premier league and FVSL Premier League would get the opportunity of playing for the Provincial Cup? How about Division One teams?

 

[whataboutbob]

BTW, how would Provinicials work in this new Super League? How many teams from the VMSL Premier league and FVSL Premier League would get the opportunity of playing for the Provincial Cup? How about Division One teams?

The Imperial Cup would still be relevant (4 teams), and I asume the next 5 VMSL teams (the ones in the super league + 1).

Obviously if there is a revolt from some top teams then it will not be the best league (does the early 80's and the PCSL ring a bell?). Perhaps some back room negotiations will be in the works come next summer, but I guess we'll have to wait and see.

BTW, it will be a minimum of $1000 for each trip made to the Island.

 

[utah]

What I think is funny is how people want to hold this league back. There should be a place for up and coming young players to ply their trade. It seems like peoples egos are getting in the way. I hope there is a coaching mandate in place that says only certified and experienced coaches can participate. We have to raise the bar in general if we want to be better period. If that means paid coaches and eventually paid players, so be it.