vmsl over 35's

[trece verde]

A message got sent out to some folks I know about the VMSL AGAIN trying to float an Over 35's division for next season. Apparently, they see it as a logical extension of their CAT system.

Also apparently, some of us don't like the idea much.....

What do the rest of you Aulde Fartz think?

BTW - this is most definitely NOT a troll - the message was sent out by Simon Turrell to all teams in Metro.....

Piece,

Stew

 

[Regs]

I heard the same thing last night. My initial thoughts were: interesting regarding "CAT"... and that the current oldtimer leagues would not like it

~Regs.

 

[Lupoman]

VMSL CAT system....

This will pose as a concern to most of the existing O'35 leagues, with the elite players being drawn away by the opportunity to play Saturday and Sunday , also the chance to play with the "big clubs". Would likely very much effect teams like Pegasus and Norvan in the NSCL. Not a good thing for our teams. With any luck it won't fly....time will tell.

lupoman

 

[trece verde]

bastages

New letter from Mr. Turtle sent out this past week. Looks like they intend to go ahead with this. Nice group of people, really. They've made no attempt to contact us about this at all. Going to be really interesting come AGM time.....

Gentlemen - I have had a lot of positive interest in the start up of this Over-35 league. For those who need to know a little more, it is simple. We want to create an Over-35 League to start this September for the 2003 - 2004 season. It will be run as the VMSL runs it's league now. These teams will, have the ability to 'CAT' players into a team in the now 'open' VMSL league. These games will be played primarily 10-AM on Sundays.

Ideally we would like 10 teams to start this league and judging by the response we are there. We can do it with less or we can do it with more. Ideally we would like to accept these 10 teams as 'new' teams that are affiliated with a Club or existing team in the VMSL and to CAT with the existing ones, however, at this point, we will not turn away any independent teams wishing to 'move' into the over-35 from the open.

To sum up we are at the point where I need ALL interested teams and/or Clubs to have a representative attend a meeting. This meeting will take place very soon - it will take place at the VMSL League Office. We would like to have it before the AGM n June 4, 2003. (TBD - after Willy is back from Holidays on May 26)

ALL teams/Clubs that are interested in attending this meeting - please reply back to me with an e-mail indicating that you are. At this meeting we will cover-off a few details & will want a post-dated cheque for your Bond, that we will obviously only deposit, once the new league is a go.

I will then contact those parties directly in regards to the details of the meeting taking place.

Yours in Soccer,

Simon Turrell
VMSL Secretary

Like I said, the VMSL has made absolutely NO attempt to contact the West Coast League on any level. I'm not sure about the North Shore folks, or the FVSL, but essentially this will be stepping on all of our toes, as we will now have to compete with these yobbos for an increasingly small pool of fields and refs.

I don't know who the "interested" teams are, but I would like to invite any team considering taking the plunge into the Over35's water to not consider this as an option, but rather to talk to already existing leagues (WCOTSL, NSCL, FVSL, etc.) instead. For us, this is our main focus, not an afterthought like it would be for the VMSL. We may not be Dog's gift to soccer like Mrs. Azzi's boy, but I think we know a hell of a lot more about the game at this level.

Still fuming about this ......

Stew

 

[Hands of Stone]

The KEY is the Cat System

Why a team would want to do this, is to keep players available for other teams under the CAT system.

I bet there are a few Div. 1 and Div. 2 teams around in the VMSL that are getting older, instead of selling their spot in the VMSL and the players going off in different directions, the team can stick together and move up to O-35.
If the team is part of a Club, even better, they can now bring up or send down players to a team that plays in the Open Division.

Sounds like a good idea to me, plus more money going into the VMSL Pool which I am a part of.
I think the VMSL is making a good move here.

HOS

 

[trece verde]

Good for the VMSL; not for the rest of us, nor for local soccer in general.

HOS, the thing that I'm really ticked about isn't the fact that they're doing it, but how they're doing it. This could have been done so much better if they'd come and talked to the rest of us first, but that didn't happen. Apparently, requests from WCOTSL for a meeting on the subject were also ignored by VMSL.

The most common-sense approach would have been to amalgamate with the WCOTSL (covering the same geography) and build from the 8 clubs that have teams in that league and the 2 that have teams in the NSCL, but they've chosen to "raid" instead. This doesn't hit just the 1st and 2nd division teams, but the premier ones too. One of the best incentives about playing at this level is that the talent is still there. It ain't necessarily moving quite as quickly any more, but it's still a hell of a long way from beer league. Ask Ballbaby if he thought his last game against Columbus was a stroll in the park.

Basically, my point is that there's already 2 existing provincially-affiliated leagues operating in the same area, with a decent level of competition being played, and larger than VMSL will be able to offer. Why not form agreements/alliances with them, and take advantage of the infrastructure that's already in place, instead of rubbing it in their faces? Makes way more sense to me than the Azzi School of Manifest Destiny.

Piece,

Stew

 

[cside17]

Stew

There is actually 3 provincially affilliated leagues operating in the same area. With the shortage of parks all over, where does VMSL propose getting the extra parks.

If 10 existing teams leave thier respective league to join up, that means 5 fields for games each week. If our league lost 1-2 teams, that does not automatically entitle them to one field from our league.

North Van is going to a process of field allotment based on percentage of NV residents. Meralomas are in the process of leaving our league due to this, we also are going to have to drop the other Vancouver based team. All due to park shortage. One of these teams has been refused a park in Van, as they are stretched to the max as it is.

I can't see any of our teams leaving our league for this VMSL league.

This should prove to be rather interesting

cside

 

[Hands of Stone]

Originally posted by cside17
I can't see any of our teams leaving our league for this VMSL league.

I dissagree, I think there will be a few teams tempted to leave based on the fact that they have Open Teams playing in the VMSL.

You have Pegasus, Norvan, Hagars and Cove. If these O-35 teams joined the VMSL they would then be able to bring up or send down players under the CAT system, so you would not run into the situation of being short players anymore.

This is a situation where the CAT system could start to work for the older guys.

Same with the valley leagues, Slurrey may want to be in the VMSL like the rest of its teams, to take advantage of the CAT system.

HOS

 

[Keeper]

For us, this is our main focus, not an afterthought like it would be for the VMSL.

The WCOTL website certainly seems like an afterthought.

 

[trece verde]

splitting hairs....

C-Side:

I was thinking more in terms of geographically - the NSCL and WCOTSL cover approximately the same area as the VMSL, with some overlap to the FVSL. The Valley won't really be as profoundly affected by this as the rest of us because they already have the same kind of system in place, and they aren't being raided like the other two leagues are.

I think they're hoping that the parks come with the teams that may be tempted to jump. I agree; the number of allotments is finite, and so is the number of refs. What these people don't seem to realize is that it's not just the O35s who use 10am allotments; it's the O40s as well.

'Lomas are moving to the WCOTSL this winter; as you said, not by choice (they would rather have stayed put), but by pressure from North Van. Who is the other Vancouver team?

HOS: The CAT system works great for big clubs, or for teams that don't mind being affiliated with them. But what happens to the rest of the folks? Not everybody is in that position. Some folks have started their own teams because they don't agree with club politics or philosophy; the CAT system discourages this. Our league (WCOTSL) is comprised primarily of independent teams; very few are affiliated with big clubs, and most would not want to be. The WCOTSL was approached by a new team comprised of former Westside players specifically for this reason. They just don't want to be affiliated with any club.

Keeper - why the mad-on about the WCOTSL website? Your future is calling you......

Piece,

Stew

 

[Vinnie]

Stew,

You know why the VMSL would not create an alliance with the WCOTL.

It's all about the power (not the TTPer either)

The Willie Azzi gustapo (sp?) would have to relinquish some their powers.

The CAT system can work for the bigger clubs but the smaller ones just don't have the resources to organize more than one team. I can speak from experience that running one team is bad enough but running 2 or 3. I believe some of the bigger clubs have people souly commited to the club's operations.

I guess the real question is why do teams have to be affiliated?
If a team can utilize the system then good for them, as they will prosper. But, if a team wishes to not be part of the CAT system, it is not allowed.

These are my comments
Vinnie

 

[cside17]

Stew.

Other team possibly leaving will be Carribbean All-stars, one of our founding teams. It is a shame that they have to leave, as both teams(Lomas) are a great bunch of guy's.

Ironically our league was thinking of a restructure, to include an Over 40 div.

HOS, mentioned teams that may leave our league. Who?

Norvan- doubt it, most guy's pushing 40- How many of them would play div 1 metro with Norvan, maybe D Vaughan, but he left their div 1 team to play over 30's. Otherwise don't know of any players who would.

Pegasus- Strongest team in our league by far. Their younger players all came from Peg oly's Div 1/2 team. Maybe 1-2 players could get a run with Peg premier- otherwise, can't see the interest in playing div 2 with Oly's- Wouldn't be surprised to see these guy's create a Over 40 team within our league.

Freybe- Not interested.
Nordic- Not interested.

Coveside- Some of my players came through Deep Cove Royals organization, and a few more will come. I used to help run DCR, but am just a casual supporter now. some of my guy's could maybe get a run with DCR div 1, but they left their for Over 30's. So I can't see that happening.


Malones/Hagars- might be interested as they have 2 teams in VMSL, but would be a longshot.

Can't think of any of our div 2 teams that would be interested.

Just received this email as I was typing this. Gotta agree with this letter.

Start Quote


I wanted to discuss an issue that you have been dealing with lately as a
VMSL rep. I understand that VMSL is considering and preparing to develop an
over 35 soccer league. While I may not be fundamentally opposed to this
initiative, I have several major concerns. Most of the concerns revolve
around the impact your venture into Over 35 soccer will have on the OTHER
leagues that have been already operating over the years servicing the
not-so-young's exclusively. Many of these leagues already struggle with the
difficulties of poor/insufficient fields, lack of quality ref's, etc. The
impact of a VMSL league will be significant.

Primarily, my concern revolves around the lack of field facilities
throughout the lower mainland, especially in Vancouver. How can the VMSL be
considering to introduce 10 teams into their league (equating to a minimum
additional 5 games per weekend, plus practice fields) when they lack a
sufficient number of facilities to play the games you already schedule? I
know that the Vancouver Parks Board will be VERY concerned with the
additional amount of play on fields. They are already over used and there is
no additional funding for maintenance coming any time soon!

Second, the pool of referees is already too shallow. The number of qualified
ref's is VERY low and those that can properly ref a game is even lower!
Where do you expect to get these additional refs from?

Third, as far as I know, there has been little if any discussion with the
existing Over 35 leagues already operating throughout the lower mainland. At
the very least, I feel you should discuss your intentions with the
executives of these leagues in order to ensure that they understand better,
where you are coming from.

Fourth, you have said that you would consider accepting independent teams
into the league. The mantra from the VMSL over the past 5 years has been
that independent teams are the bane of the league, you are now changing your
tune to ensure you have enough teams to start this program. Either you are
for solo teams without club affiliation, or you are against them. Which is
it?

Finally, about 3-4 years ago I asked Willie Azzie about an Over 30's league
in the VMSL. His comments were that the League was having a tough enough
time with Div 3 teams (and they were considering doing away with Div 3
altogether!), he added that there's no way the VMSL could facilitate such an
undertaking, given the limited field allocations and number of refs. What
has changed?

Rather than unilaterally starting a VMSL Over 35 league, why not bring
together the existing leagues (WCOTSL, NSCL, FVSL,etc.) and develop a
program that could involve and include them rather than alienate and
infuriate them?

Like I said at the beginning, I am not fundamentally opposed to this
initiative, but I am concerned with the way VMSL is being perceived as
riding rough shot over the those that are currently playing in Over 35
leagues.

As one that plays in one of these leagues yourself, I would think you can
see my point. I would advise that you put your plans on hold until you've
liased with the other leagues to explore how best the leagues could
incorporate or at least work in conjunction with your efforts.

End Quote

Sorry can't get the quote funtion to work. This was sent to this Simon guy at VMSL, from a rep in WCOTSL. I left the names out so as not to put anyone in an awkward position, I'm sure most will receive the email anyways.

Cheers
cside

 

[trece verde]

good points

C-Side:

I got the same message. You could well see this guy in a more prominent position next season.

Simon is Mr. Turrell; I've already quoted his message earlier in this thread. The other individual I will leave nameless for now, although I will admit that I know him quite well.

What do the All-Stars intend to do this winter? Worst case scenario, we could accomodate them as well...

Vinnie:

"Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely." I'm not sure if this is actually a power trip, or if these guys really are that ignorant. Most of the evidence I have points at the former. The big question is, why? It's not necessarily a bad thing to be a big fish in a small pond, but you look really dumb when you're the only fish in the pond.....

Piece,

Stew

 

[cside17]

Stew

If you guy's could accomadate CAS, that would be awesome. Lifts a load of guilt of our executive shoulders. As this is out of our hands. The problem is they don't have a field, and when Jim approached Van parks, to apply for one, they basically laughed at him. Told him to join a Vancouver league.Wouldn't supply a field for N van teams to play on. If you can help accomadate them, pm me and I will give you the contact #'s. I did suggest they call WCOTSL, and even VMSL o35's, as hopefully they could find a league on their own, before we are forced to drop them, which nobody wants.


I have also talked to our 1st div teams, and none of them are considering leaving.


Ironically, I received a call from BCSA yesterday morning, about a Senior competitions/registration meeting last night. After I bitched at the caller about the short notice. I was told, Apparently the person who went on leave "may or may not have sent the mail out" so she was told to phone everyone. I know I didn't receive one on behalf of the league. Any ways couldn't attend, due to prior commitments.

Did anyone attend, curious to see if this subject was raised? BCSA would have to be involved in pre planning.

cside

 

[trece verde]

time to talk to Jimmy......

C-Side:

pm me Jim's info and I'll give him the 411 on our league, if he doesn't have it already. Nothing worse than being all organized without a place to play.....

Re the meeting last night, I didn't know about it either. But then again, my home email has been out of commission since Friday (fighting with a newer, bigger and better hard drive that didn't want to talk to the rest of my system until this morning). Not sure if our league had a rep there or not. Best person to kvetch at might be Vic Montagliani (sp?) from Columbus; he's the senior soccer rep at BCSA. That would definitely have been an interesting meeting to hear about. I'll ask Mark if he knows anything about it.

Piece,

Stew

 

[fonzie]

allocation

Interesting discussion so far.

Here's another point to consider:

What happens to team allocation for the BC Over 35 championship? There was already some 'concern' expressed on TTP about the number of spots allocated to each of the over 35 leagues. How will the VMSL O35 affect this? Are spots taken away from the current leagues?

Perhaps there could be some sort of 'CAT' system to allow affiliated clubs to swap players between the VMSL and either NSCL or WCOTSL.

Anyone?

 

[trece verde]

fonzie the peacemaker......

Nice idea, but I don't think there'd be a practical application for it. Richard Rupps (provincial registrar) is probably already growing new grey hair just thinking about the concept.... I think they'd say that you would only be able to "CAT" within the same league.

Not sure how a revised provincial cup would line up, but I don't think that BC Soccer would let anybody drop below 2 reps per league (I could be wrong, though....). Let's just say that we don't know yet, because it hasn't happened, and hopefully won't. My personal preference would be to expand the number of teams.

Piece,

Stew

 

[cside17]

Stew

Richard Rupps, was toe-punted out of BCSA last fall.


The provincials should be expanded, if VMSL enters the picture.

 

[fonzie]

Hmmmm

I'm not sure there's anything anyone can do to prevent the VMSL from starting an O35 division. They seem to do whatever they want without contacting their own members, let alone other organizations that might have an interest.

I'd hate to see the NSCL and WCOTSL be negatively affected by the VMSL O35. They're well run leagues with some excellent teams and players.

 

[fonzie]

Word?

What's the latest word on the O35's?

I think there was a league meeting recently. Can anyone fill us in on the latest developments?