Welcome to the TTP community
Be apart of something great, join today!
Fcuk the NDP
- Thread starter Regs
- Start date
johnnybluenose
Well-Known Member
I've had a change of mind on this also.
The Kids aren't being used as Pawns, the teachers are. The kids are the victims.The Teachers are the ones that will end us with a few grand missing from their bank accounts and be expected to picket, while their leadership are being paid to bargain, or not bargain. The Govt collects that cash and uses it for the Wage Increase and/or signing bonus when a deal is inevitably reached, fast forward 3-5 years, rinse, repeat.
The BCTF went from an Association of Working Professionals to a Union. Unions serve their members, and the BCTF is now also a political group as far as Govt Elections and Lobbying.
Also complicit is the Universities and Academia at large.
70,000 odd Accredited teachers in the province of BC with ~30,000 teaching positions, and the Uni's keep cranking them out.
I remember in High School (I graduated in 99) generally speaking- most of my teachers told us if we didn't go to University we'd never amount to anything, and thus you get a massive influx of people away from Trades etc into Liberal Arts degrees and then realize there's fcuk all to do but go and teach with those otherwise useless degrees. (learning is fine, I'm speaking of high paying careers - going to Uni for 5 years means fcuk all to me, it shouldn't and doesn't guarantee a high wage - this notion of entitlement is disgusting)
When will the Teachers smarten up and learn that the Union is only complaining about the class sizes for 1 reason and 1 reason only? Smaller classes means more teachers being paid, means more teachers paying dues to the Union so they can protest pipelines, mines, ports, the current govt of the day etc. It's under the guise of having the kids "best interest" at heart. If they can get Class Size off the table they can focus on Composition and Wages.
Also not often brought up is that the benefits for BC Teachers are Gold Lined and Plated. Sure the teachers in AB and elsewhere are paid more, but often they will move to BC for less wages because the pensions and benefits are massive in comparison.
The NDP gave the Liberals a poison pill in the Class Size and Composition into the CBA when Smallwood, Prddy and MacPhail all knew they were going to be out on their ear. It was 100% political. Up to then, the most radical pro-union government this Country had every seen was unable to make peace with the BCTF.
I'll applaud the gov't for playing nice in sandbox instead of calling a spade a spade - but I'd give them a standing ovation if Fassbender and Clark physically said the truth. The Government cannot however break the union, only the teachers can do that and sadly there's far too many Boomers in there right now waiting for their golden parachutes for their retirement and all of us taxpayers (teachers inclusive) have to pay for it.
British Columbians gave the Liberals a clear mandate when the NDP were again sent packing, for a centre-right led Government in BC. It should be no surprise we're here again. It has always been so since the TF went Union in 94, with the NDP and the Centre/Right.
The Kids aren't being used as Pawns, the teachers are. The kids are the victims.The Teachers are the ones that will end us with a few grand missing from their bank accounts and be expected to picket, while their leadership are being paid to bargain, or not bargain. The Govt collects that cash and uses it for the Wage Increase and/or signing bonus when a deal is inevitably reached, fast forward 3-5 years, rinse, repeat.
The BCTF went from an Association of Working Professionals to a Union. Unions serve their members, and the BCTF is now also a political group as far as Govt Elections and Lobbying.
Also complicit is the Universities and Academia at large.
70,000 odd Accredited teachers in the province of BC with ~30,000 teaching positions, and the Uni's keep cranking them out.
I remember in High School (I graduated in 99) generally speaking- most of my teachers told us if we didn't go to University we'd never amount to anything, and thus you get a massive influx of people away from Trades etc into Liberal Arts degrees and then realize there's fcuk all to do but go and teach with those otherwise useless degrees. (learning is fine, I'm speaking of high paying careers - going to Uni for 5 years means fcuk all to me, it shouldn't and doesn't guarantee a high wage - this notion of entitlement is disgusting)
When will the Teachers smarten up and learn that the Union is only complaining about the class sizes for 1 reason and 1 reason only? Smaller classes means more teachers being paid, means more teachers paying dues to the Union so they can protest pipelines, mines, ports, the current govt of the day etc. It's under the guise of having the kids "best interest" at heart. If they can get Class Size off the table they can focus on Composition and Wages.
Also not often brought up is that the benefits for BC Teachers are Gold Lined and Plated. Sure the teachers in AB and elsewhere are paid more, but often they will move to BC for less wages because the pensions and benefits are massive in comparison.
The NDP gave the Liberals a poison pill in the Class Size and Composition into the CBA when Smallwood, Prddy and MacPhail all knew they were going to be out on their ear. It was 100% political. Up to then, the most radical pro-union government this Country had every seen was unable to make peace with the BCTF.
I'll applaud the gov't for playing nice in sandbox instead of calling a spade a spade - but I'd give them a standing ovation if Fassbender and Clark physically said the truth. The Government cannot however break the union, only the teachers can do that and sadly there's far too many Boomers in there right now waiting for their golden parachutes for their retirement and all of us taxpayers (teachers inclusive) have to pay for it.
British Columbians gave the Liberals a clear mandate when the NDP were again sent packing, for a centre-right led Government in BC. It should be no surprise we're here again. It has always been so since the TF went Union in 94, with the NDP and the Centre/Right.
Students are typically given time to complete their work in class....are teachers given time to complete their marking and planning?? I guess they could totally ignore all the students in the class and mark and plan all day!
Big boobs has had a hard on for the teachers and was planning on playing hard ball from the beginning. Remember with all the job action and lock out going on it is saving the government a lot of money. The wage demands are as much about negotiating as the threat of wage roll backs are.
Really Polska I am not sure why I should respond but as a father would you rather your child's teacher teach while they are in the classroom or have them ignore the kids and do marking. They don't complain about doing the extra work off school hours but it should be acknowledged when people complain about hours.
Really Polska I am not sure why I should respond but as a father would you rather your child's teacher teach while they are in the classroom or have them ignore the kids and do marking. They don't complain about doing the extra work off school hours but it should be acknowledged when people complain about hours.
johnnybluenose
Well-Known Member
STD, I'm in the private sector, I have a boss. I don't have a union. If I'm sick I stay home- 1-3 days a year tops. I work all year, and average approximately 55 hours a week. I also get 3 weeks of paid vacation a year. I don't have a fancy pension, I have 100% Medical and 80% dental. I have an RRSP Purchase Program. I am probably in the majority of British Columbians.
I'm not crying for teachers who say they're 5 years post secondary education means they should make more... but then bitch and whine about how they "put in extra hours" ....like the other Professionals Do? I'm sure accountants, lawyers, architects, engineers always only work from 8:30 till 3:00 and then go home without any "homework" They don't have to "Prep" for their day and "Take work home with them"
I'm sure they do, and they don't have half of June, all of July and August off.
Give Me Strength.
I'm not crying for teachers who say they're 5 years post secondary education means they should make more... but then bitch and whine about how they "put in extra hours" ....like the other Professionals Do? I'm sure accountants, lawyers, architects, engineers always only work from 8:30 till 3:00 and then go home without any "homework" They don't have to "Prep" for their day and "Take work home with them"
I'm sure they do, and they don't have half of June, all of July and August off.
Give Me Strength.
johnnybluenose
Well-Known Member
also STD- "Big Boobs" isn't a newbie to this file- Harcourt, Glen Clark, Joy MacPhail, Cambell and now Clark have all had issues with the BCTF. It's not a political stripes issue.
"70,000 odd Accredited teachers in the province of BC with ~30,000 teaching positions, and the Uni's keep cranking them out."
Why is this the University's fault. If someone is stupid enough to keep paying them for their programs, keep running them through. You would think someone would look at the potential job market prior to starting 5/6 years of post-secondary work... Maybe its the 4 years of economics, but if there continues to be such a vast supply of teachers, and people willing to do it, why is there really that much pressure on the province to pay more? They can find someone else to do it for the same money it seems. And its not even a temporary foreign worker, so double bonus.
I wish the teachers that spam my facebook would/could make a better argument. Polska did the math well, but so many counter their summer off with the fact they "don't get paid during the summer" and complain their annual salary is too low.
Teachers argument that their work days are not "9-3!!" good. No one else's is. The amount of teachers I know that are very comfortable continuing their serving job 2-4 nights a week in addition to teaching seems to buck the trend that they're burning the midnight oil for these kids.
There are great teachers out there who go above and beyond. They should be recognized for their efforts and reimbursed as such. Unfortunately they are fighting to support a union/system that does not support this notion. Like everything that has to do with education, its about catering to the lowest level, rather than rewarding the highest.
Why is this the University's fault. If someone is stupid enough to keep paying them for their programs, keep running them through. You would think someone would look at the potential job market prior to starting 5/6 years of post-secondary work... Maybe its the 4 years of economics, but if there continues to be such a vast supply of teachers, and people willing to do it, why is there really that much pressure on the province to pay more? They can find someone else to do it for the same money it seems. And its not even a temporary foreign worker, so double bonus.
I wish the teachers that spam my facebook would/could make a better argument. Polska did the math well, but so many counter their summer off with the fact they "don't get paid during the summer" and complain their annual salary is too low.
Teachers argument that their work days are not "9-3!!" good. No one else's is. The amount of teachers I know that are very comfortable continuing their serving job 2-4 nights a week in addition to teaching seems to buck the trend that they're burning the midnight oil for these kids.
There are great teachers out there who go above and beyond. They should be recognized for their efforts and reimbursed as such. Unfortunately they are fighting to support a union/system that does not support this notion. Like everything that has to do with education, its about catering to the lowest level, rather than rewarding the highest.
johnnybluenose
Well-Known Member
Exactly dutch08, and I can think specifically of TTP's own @Captain Shamrock and @Titan4Life and many others who also coach or lead kids programs, mentor these youngsters, perhaps provide father/mother figures for kids with absentee parents or coming from broken homes etc. This is called living your calling and being the best you can be. Some of us do it in our own professions mentoring new employees, paying the mentoring you got forward, helping a co-worker move, or build a deck, doing your single-mom-next-door's taxes for them, etc.
If more teachers were doing the right things this fight wouldn't be on our hands (it really is on all of us) instead the ones who don't coach and volunteer and mentor are busying themselves organizing more pro-TF rallies and anti "Big Boobs" rallies and on and on it goes.
If more teachers were doing the right things this fight wouldn't be on our hands (it really is on all of us) instead the ones who don't coach and volunteer and mentor are busying themselves organizing more pro-TF rallies and anti "Big Boobs" rallies and on and on it goes.
Did you fail math?
Last time I checked teachers ((When grades really count) teach for 4 one hour periods a day. They bill out at 9.5 hours a daym Everyone has a calculator now a days. Do the math and get back to me.
Last time I checked teachers ((When grades really count) teach for 4 one hour periods a day. They bill out at 9.5 hours a daym Everyone has a calculator now a days. Do the math and get back to me.
trece verde
Well-Known Member
Yes you are. Clearly.I'm in the wrong line of work, clearly
Honestly, I've yet to meet anyone who has gone into teaching with the intent to get rich. Comfortable, maybe, but not rich. Most that I have met do so for ideological (not necessarily political) reasons or because they actually like kids (no, not that way). How does that get warped into our wonderfully adversarial current state? Because they don't have a choice, that's why. The structure of the BCTF doesn't deal well with dissenting opinions, and currently the only methods I am aware of for a teacher to opt out of the union and still stay working are to a) get to the principal/vp level or b) work for a private school. I would wager that for the majority of current members, the political views developed AFTER exposure to the them vs. us system. The atmosphere is poisonous, adversarial, and even confrontational, and it's definitely foisted upon the people who have to work in it. Yes, I am speaking from experience.
This might be one of the few times that I agree with JBN, but he's at least partially right - at least a substantial amount of the membership of the BCTF are pawns for the leadership. Obviously, there are sufficient to keep the current leadership there for political reasons, and another bloc that are only motivated by greed, but the rest are along for the ride because they have to be. They have no choice except to leave the field.
Could the BCTF be decertified? Probably not any more, unless legislation changes substantially. Not sure I'd want to deal with the resulting mess, though. Nobody needs a general strike, but that's the most likely outcome.
I had a long chat a couple of months ago with a friend who was a former BCTF executive. He raised a very valid point that a lot of people miss when they decry the "class size and composition" argument as solely greed-based: when old fcuks like Captain Shamrock, Regs, and some others of us who might be over 40 (or might not) were in school here or in other jurisdictions, kids with severe mental or physical disabilities weren't a part of our classrooms. Kids with severe behavioural issues weren't either - they were dealt with in segregated institutions. We also hadn't had the demographic shift we now have with some schools that have ESL students making up over half their student populations. There are classrooms with more obnoxious little shites in them than there were when we were growing up, and like Regs, I'd probably strangle a couple if I was teaching. On this basis, I agree with balancing the size/composition argument; from my own kids' experience I know that there are some students who need nearly fulltime one-on-one attention. These don't have to be full teachers; we need to think outside that box a bit and bring in more teaching aides (who definitely are cheaper than teachers).
As a father of a 13 year old and a 3 day old who works on a a salary most would be happy with, I can't justify your position. School did nothing but introduce me to a path with a bad ending so I dropped out and took the hands on approach to learning. No regrets here. I run my own business which I entered as a 16 year old punk. Teachers did nothing for me in my later years. My electives were a joke. I aced first nations studies in grade 11 with a 20 percent attendance. Thank god I was good at smokin dope cause the used peace pipe I made and handed in at the end of the year saved my ass. Education is overated. After grade 10 nothing u learn is retained in the real world. Life is short. Dont piss it away killing time in a manufactured setting
Aren't you the same guy who got expelled from TTP and had to come back in backwards? I am not sure if you are the model for children to follow. just sayin'
Captain Shamrock
Well-Known Member
Awesome time to be a teacher who just wants to teach. FML.
So, apparently, CUPE members have been supporting BCTF members since day one. When BCTF members are on strike, CUPE members join them.
Now, listen to this: Government just signed a new agreement with CUPE (the old one was expiring at the end of June) and now Government will be paying 100% CUPE members when they do not work because they do not want to cross the BCTF picket line!!! So, again, CUPE members will not work, they will support teachers, stand with them outside, protest against their mutual employer and that employer will pay CUPE members 100% to do that!!!??? What the hell is going on?
By the way, I cannot support BCTF when I hear that they are requesting a two-year maternity leave paid 100%!!! The rest of population will have up to a year at 55% and the teachers want to be paid 100% for two years!? The last time I checked that was possible in some communist countries only and communism has been long gone now (the last time I checked). Unfortunately, communism as a system still exists in Canada through those big unions.
Now, listen to this: Government just signed a new agreement with CUPE (the old one was expiring at the end of June) and now Government will be paying 100% CUPE members when they do not work because they do not want to cross the BCTF picket line!!! So, again, CUPE members will not work, they will support teachers, stand with them outside, protest against their mutual employer and that employer will pay CUPE members 100% to do that!!!??? What the hell is going on?
By the way, I cannot support BCTF when I hear that they are requesting a two-year maternity leave paid 100%!!! The rest of population will have up to a year at 55% and the teachers want to be paid 100% for two years!? The last time I checked that was possible in some communist countries only and communism has been long gone now (the last time I checked). Unfortunately, communism as a system still exists in Canada through those big unions.
johnnybluenose
Well-Known Member
@trece verde - Agreed that Class Size and Composition is an issue, but they're talked about as one and the same, and they're not. If Teachers would drop the Class Size issue, give back some benefits and take a reasonable pay hike the system could afford (onto Composition) to hire additional ESL Teachers, LA Staff to deal with special needs. (Handicapped, Dyslexia, Behavioral Disorders, etc) I went through school as the LA (Learning Assistance) Classrooms were being phased out and flex staff were integrated into classrooms to work with the kids...My sister is/was dyslexic and deals with ADHD. This was also the same time my school phased out "The Challenge Program" where I spent grades 5, 6 & 7 doing curriculum on my own pace with a few other high achievers. But sadly now days everyone gets a participation ribbon, and there's no winners and no losers... Guess what - Not everyone is equal, we're all humans but enough of this "My little soandso is a special little flower" In the real world winners and losers are picked.
@akslop - Your comments are either fully ignorant or poorly chosen in a pisstake attempt. I get not everyone has a positive experience, however your post unfairly slams teachers, and teachers aren't the issue imho- their Union is. At the end of the day the School System generally serves three distinct purposes:
1. Kids learn how to be in a social world away from the cocoon of safety provided by mum and dad
2. Basic Functional Skills are taught, and you learn how to learn.
3. Basic Problem Solving and Maturation as you grow up.
Specified Skills you need as an adult comes from Post Secondary Education, Vocational Post Secondary/Apprenticeships, or Experience via the School of Hard Knocks. K-12 will never provide functional work skills, it teaches you how to be a person functioning in a basic society.
I heard some stuff today that made me shake my head:
1. 15.9% Pay Raise over 4 years. (WTMF!?!?!)
2. Significant Expansion to benefits as @RL RCD mentioned, also including up to $3000.00 per year per person for massage therapy, etc. Really? Also increases to other already-gold-plated benefits like hearing aids, orthotics, eye glasses, etc.
3. More Pro D Days?!
Mike Campbell hits the nail directly on the head here: http://moneytalks.net/mikes-content/mikes-daily-comment/12868-dumb-founded.html
FFS.
@akslop - Your comments are either fully ignorant or poorly chosen in a pisstake attempt. I get not everyone has a positive experience, however your post unfairly slams teachers, and teachers aren't the issue imho- their Union is. At the end of the day the School System generally serves three distinct purposes:
1. Kids learn how to be in a social world away from the cocoon of safety provided by mum and dad
2. Basic Functional Skills are taught, and you learn how to learn.
3. Basic Problem Solving and Maturation as you grow up.
Specified Skills you need as an adult comes from Post Secondary Education, Vocational Post Secondary/Apprenticeships, or Experience via the School of Hard Knocks. K-12 will never provide functional work skills, it teaches you how to be a person functioning in a basic society.
I heard some stuff today that made me shake my head:
1. 15.9% Pay Raise over 4 years. (WTMF!?!?!)
2. Significant Expansion to benefits as @RL RCD mentioned, also including up to $3000.00 per year per person for massage therapy, etc. Really? Also increases to other already-gold-plated benefits like hearing aids, orthotics, eye glasses, etc.
3. More Pro D Days?!
Mike Campbell hits the nail directly on the head here: http://moneytalks.net/mikes-content/mikes-daily-comment/12868-dumb-founded.html
FFS.
