i'm not sure a current player is the best answer ....the best players dont always make the best coaches
a senior coach however then i would be interested
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How to improve youth development
- Thread starter Mr Base
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i'm not sure a current player is the best answer ....the best players dont always make the best coaches
a senior coach however then i would be interested
- Thread starter
- #22
The reason I did say Giggs he is one of the hardest working guys in the community when it comes to youth development. Also a hard nut when it comes to playing. Players at the high level are the most up to tate on how and what it takes to hold the game at that level or how to bring it up. Some times are the small things that bring the level up. With other hord working things.
I've said it before and I'll say it again... a junior soccer league (mimics Major Junior Hockey). Canadians can't grasp the way things are done in Europe but we do understand and tolerate junior hockey. U17 up to U21 prepping them for MLS, USL, semi pro, University or higher. It will also develop the one thing that is truly lacking... coaches!
Junior hockey has the best developmental system in the country of any sport that we play. We have a knack for developing a good chunk of the best talent in the world whether it's Canadian, American and/or European. It's ruled by Hockey Canada and, although there is a Canadian Junior team, there is nothing above it like Provincial teams or a professional team putting in their two cents and trying to undermine it or raiding it for players trying to create something superior at the expense of other programs.
If we follow the junior hockey league model we would also have different tiers below it that assist in this development process.
Having one, two or three pro and semi pro teams responsible for youth development at this level is going to do nothing. Even Chelsea, Man United and Liverpool with their vast scouting techniques, experience and coaching get it wrong and struggle to get their youth players on England’s U17, U20, U21 and U23 teams. If they can't do it, do we really expect the Whitecaps, TFC and the Impact to do a more efficient job? Please!
The system now (provincial, prospect programs) miss so many players and discourage rather than encourage players. They either don't fit the "proto-type" that these programs are looking for (play a different style or not yet physically developed) or they just get fed up with the system and rejection and choose not to even try (one man's garbage can be turned into another man's masterpiece). With this attitude, no wonder some of our best players who left overseas have turned their back on this broken system and embrace a system that developed them to a higher level! Being apart of a program that helps you develop gives you a sense of loyalty which can also be part of the education process.
As in major junior hockey, we could have a Western, Ontario and Quebec/Maritimes league with 10-20 teams each league. That's 30 - 60 "developmental centers" that coach, train, educate, and apprentices young players and coaches towards the professional game. They would also be responsible for scouting and drafting players from the select leagues across the province and country. (A player draft would be brilliant!)
All these wealthy "philanthropists" applying for MLS franchises and talking that they're doing it to better soccer in this country are fooling some (especially the media and the ones that have drunk the "kool-aid") but if they really wanted to invest in the improvement of soccer in this country, they'd invest in the youth and not the final product that flashes potential $$$$ before their eyes! Maybe then and only then, we will be able to field 'a' team full of Canadians in the MLS and a Canadian team that is worthy of making it out of the group stages of WCQ and into the hex with other "real" soccer countries.
Can't agree more, as well as w/ LFC1,2,3.
Good people. For whatever reason, we are not developing enough good people in the game. By this I mean respectful, and coachable.
You need to be involved and immersed in hockey to see what Jonesey is getting at. You see SO MANY really good kids; kids that are respectful of the game, their place in it, and of the people involved in running it. Not just coaches, but parents, volunteers, and officials. The atmosphere is such that they know they have to work hard and compete hard, and that nothing will be handed on a silver platter. To see the maturity in these kids at such a young age is very impressive. This is not to say all soccer kids are rotten, and all hockey kids are angels. There are plenty of good soccer kids, and plenty of rotten hockey kids. But, it does seem to be a commonality that helps to create the generalization.
We always talk about trying to mimic other countries systems. Why not look within our own country at what we do well, and try to create the same model on a reduced scale?
Oh- and in Vancouver / Lower Mainland / Island we need to permanently move to Spring / Summer as our major playing seasons- so far as youth is concerned. But I digress…
johnnybluenose
Well-Known Member
To clarify I was half TTP and half serious.
TTP wise: It was a run taken at all the soccer moms that don't want little Johnny or Little Jimmy berated for making a bad back pass that leads to a goal
Seriously: Kids don't play 11v11 on a full size field in Brazil until they hit 12 or 13. They play futsal and the emphasis is on skill development etc. Who am I to argue with the most successful FA in history?
All too often I hear horror stories in my office of guys and gals i work with's little Jimmy not playing the position he is best at/likes most because the coach wants to win a game, at the 10 and 11 years of age level...then for some reason the kids all quit and focus on hockey or baseball and the coaches wonder why....Now I obviously take all of that with a grain of salt because of course no parent could ever have an axe to grind in youth sports with a coach or executive
As far as Dudes post right there^^^^ Agree 100%!
TTP wise: It was a run taken at all the soccer moms that don't want little Johnny or Little Jimmy berated for making a bad back pass that leads to a goal
Seriously: Kids don't play 11v11 on a full size field in Brazil until they hit 12 or 13. They play futsal and the emphasis is on skill development etc. Who am I to argue with the most successful FA in history?
All too often I hear horror stories in my office of guys and gals i work with's little Jimmy not playing the position he is best at/likes most because the coach wants to win a game, at the 10 and 11 years of age level...then for some reason the kids all quit and focus on hockey or baseball and the coaches wonder why....Now I obviously take all of that with a grain of salt because of course no parent could ever have an axe to grind in youth sports with a coach or executive
As far as Dudes post right there^^^^ Agree 100%!
kids here play 8 v 8 on a half field until U13, my son just moved to full field this year playing 11 v 11
peg_rangers
New Member
Kids don't play 11v11 till 12 or 13 here as well...It was changed in the last 5 years maybe? Its 8v8 on a smaller field until U13. Your right though, emphasis should be on skil development
i agree with the age group's you are talking about but within the skill development there has to be a certain amout of respect being taught. not just for coaches and helpers but for each other
and i still feel strongly about what happens in the 15 / 16 area thats where i feel canada is getting it wrong.
i've lost count of the number of times in the last 5 yrs from div 3 up to prem where i will be talking about some of the basics in soccer and grown men have no idea what i'm on about because they have never been told
simple stuff like a defender heads it up and a striker heads it down.
one comparison i would like to see made with hockey is whats at the next level ... if you compete at fvsl prem then where do you go from there .....vmsl prem ...ok whats next .... and so on. geography and its cost limit what you can do. But from chiliwack to delta to the north shore. we have enough good good players, enough good pitches to make a real top end league where only the best of the best get to play. so the game the other week $10 a pop at town center could and should be a common thing, and all players of all ages have somthing to aim for.
how does Burnaby v surrey sound or vancouver v delta or chiliwack or mission or ridge meadows or north van or west van or poco ..... one top tier team representing an area your home town area.
no doubt money would get involved and that may be the problem ... ok rant over.
and i still feel strongly about what happens in the 15 / 16 area thats where i feel canada is getting it wrong.
i've lost count of the number of times in the last 5 yrs from div 3 up to prem where i will be talking about some of the basics in soccer and grown men have no idea what i'm on about because they have never been told
simple stuff like a defender heads it up and a striker heads it down.
one comparison i would like to see made with hockey is whats at the next level ... if you compete at fvsl prem then where do you go from there .....vmsl prem ...ok whats next .... and so on. geography and its cost limit what you can do. But from chiliwack to delta to the north shore. we have enough good good players, enough good pitches to make a real top end league where only the best of the best get to play. so the game the other week $10 a pop at town center could and should be a common thing, and all players of all ages have somthing to aim for.
how does Burnaby v surrey sound or vancouver v delta or chiliwack or mission or ridge meadows or north van or west van or poco ..... one top tier team representing an area your home town area.
no doubt money would get involved and that may be the problem ... ok rant over.
johnnybluenose
Well-Known Member
Probably the way forward bluebird...at least locally.
However, you have two (maybe three or four if you include the BMSA and the VISL) leagues that are established with executive committees with vested interests etc.
you have existing clubs (Many times two or more in a certain municipality)
It would have to be a thing whereby a league is started, by one person or organization, and administators and management/coaching are hired for each respective zone or team. They then go out to the world to recruit players to sign for their teams.
I still maintain the best model is the one employed by the semi pro lacrosse where with the WLA or the BCHL/PIJHL junior hockey circuits. They get great coverage in the municipal rags, they get good exposure to higher levels through scouting etc...
however, it would take 3-5 leagues executives to get together, have a sit down and agree to put all past differences aside and do what is best for senior soccer in BC. And that may be, at the end of the day, to leave it status quo.
However, you have two (maybe three or four if you include the BMSA and the VISL) leagues that are established with executive committees with vested interests etc.
you have existing clubs (Many times two or more in a certain municipality)
It would have to be a thing whereby a league is started, by one person or organization, and administators and management/coaching are hired for each respective zone or team. They then go out to the world to recruit players to sign for their teams.
I still maintain the best model is the one employed by the semi pro lacrosse where with the WLA or the BCHL/PIJHL junior hockey circuits. They get great coverage in the municipal rags, they get good exposure to higher levels through scouting etc...
however, it would take 3-5 leagues executives to get together, have a sit down and agree to put all past differences aside and do what is best for senior soccer in BC. And that may be, at the end of the day, to leave it status quo.
yeah i know ... its one of those things that pi$$es me off a couple of guys who have got their little empire who can't see past their fcking noses may just be holding things back enough ,that all we have to aim for is a jumped up fcuking pub league as our highest aim.
the jump from what we have to where some of these guys could and should be playing is just too great.
was'nt status quo just an awsome band in the 70 / 80's one of my fav's
johnnybluenose
Well-Known Member
I don't blame the guys on the executives, they have a history of each league they need to protect, also the reputations...Why gamble changing something that is not broken (perception wise)
because standing still is not moving forward
when liverpool , man u or celtic are winning they still sign players to try and improve.
Djones,
You have some great points regarding how youth development should be structured. it doesn't fix the problem of who gets selected into such a system but the structure is very important.
I disagree with you though on the importance of having a pro team at the top of the pyramid. It is very important to have that carrot up there dangling in front of a kid who is a great athlete and is trying to decide which sport to put his effort into.
If a viable business model can't be sustained at the top level paying good wages to the players, there isn't much hope for long term success in developing players beyond the current levels. Having a domestic team that pays well is crucial to the sport and it can't be an altruistic venture, the owner has to able to make money.
If the people who are applying to the MLS are saying they are going to help soccer development in this country, they speak the truth...it doesn't preclude the need for other changes in the system as well though.
You have some great points regarding how youth development should be structured. it doesn't fix the problem of who gets selected into such a system but the structure is very important.
I disagree with you though on the importance of having a pro team at the top of the pyramid. It is very important to have that carrot up there dangling in front of a kid who is a great athlete and is trying to decide which sport to put his effort into.
If a viable business model can't be sustained at the top level paying good wages to the players, there isn't much hope for long term success in developing players beyond the current levels. Having a domestic team that pays well is crucial to the sport and it can't be an altruistic venture, the owner has to able to make money.
If the people who are applying to the MLS are saying they are going to help soccer development in this country, they speak the truth...it doesn't preclude the need for other changes in the system as well though.
A lot of you make very valid points, HOWEVER, I think many of you are missing something very crucial here. Canada was never, is not now, and is likely never to be a soccer nation.
Fact: Hockey dwarfs all other sports in terms of interest and funding. Don't bother with the argument that X hundreds of thousands of kids play soccer. They do so in a lot of instances because it is the cheapest sport to play by a long shot.
Fact: Without a viable professional domestic league, it doesn't matter what you do with the youth of the country. All due respect to the Whitecaps/Impact, but if you need a part time job, you're not a professional soccer player
Fact: Soccer, its development, furthering, and success in this country is not a priority to those in the various levels of government that oversee sport. You will find that these people, and the general public to a large degree would rather see money put into "Own the Podium" garbage rather than anything related to soccer.
Fact: The VAST majority of Canada's immigrant population does not care about Canada's soccer standing in the world. This group will always associate with the country of their origin in terms of soccer. We are willing to associate with Canada when it comes to stuff we're good at, hockey, curling, umm help me out here. In all seriousness though, this is definitely the case, and it is getting passed down generation to generation.
While your arguments are noble and well intentioned, I think that at the end of the day people need to realize that Canada is about where it belongs in the soccer food chain given the reasons stated above. Willing it, or wanting it to improve may be futile.
Fact: Hockey dwarfs all other sports in terms of interest and funding. Don't bother with the argument that X hundreds of thousands of kids play soccer. They do so in a lot of instances because it is the cheapest sport to play by a long shot.
Fact: Without a viable professional domestic league, it doesn't matter what you do with the youth of the country. All due respect to the Whitecaps/Impact, but if you need a part time job, you're not a professional soccer player
Fact: Soccer, its development, furthering, and success in this country is not a priority to those in the various levels of government that oversee sport. You will find that these people, and the general public to a large degree would rather see money put into "Own the Podium" garbage rather than anything related to soccer.
Fact: The VAST majority of Canada's immigrant population does not care about Canada's soccer standing in the world. This group will always associate with the country of their origin in terms of soccer. We are willing to associate with Canada when it comes to stuff we're good at, hockey, curling, umm help me out here
. In all seriousness though, this is definitely the case, and it is getting passed down generation to generation.While your arguments are noble and well intentioned, I think that at the end of the day people need to realize that Canada is about where it belongs in the soccer food chain given the reasons stated above. Willing it, or wanting it to improve may be futile.
i dont fully understand some of what writen above because i have only lived here 6 yrs and my kids were grown up when we got here so i have not had to put them through the systems you have in place.
but what i do see here is no pyramid system in place for players to lets say graduate through as their talent grows.
we have two leagues oposing each other and fighting ove the same pool of players, with no further advancement if you win it.
briefly: soccer in uk is governed by the F.A. who say that if you win the furness lg ( 4 div's )you are promoted to the west lancs lg ( 3 divs ) win that and you go to north west counties( 2 divs ) win that and its unibond (2 divs ) win that and you are in the conference which feeds the football league.
ive coached in all except the n.w.c. and since being here ive said many many times that the skill level here is way higher than back home but the leagues we play in are at very very best west lancs div 2 standard.
the skill level is not the problem its what comes next 99.9 % of the kids who go away for trials come back and its not because they are not skilfull enough .... they just dont know the game well enough.... as with me and hockey
they play local but watch epl and there is nothing in between
please tell me how many levels between local rink hockey and the canucks ....... anyone ??
but what i do see here is no pyramid system in place for players to lets say graduate through as their talent grows.
we have two leagues oposing each other and fighting ove the same pool of players, with no further advancement if you win it.
briefly: soccer in uk is governed by the F.A. who say that if you win the furness lg ( 4 div's )you are promoted to the west lancs lg ( 3 divs ) win that and you go to north west counties( 2 divs ) win that and its unibond (2 divs ) win that and you are in the conference which feeds the football league.
ive coached in all except the n.w.c. and since being here ive said many many times that the skill level here is way higher than back home but the leagues we play in are at very very best west lancs div 2 standard.
the skill level is not the problem its what comes next 99.9 % of the kids who go away for trials come back and its not because they are not skilfull enough .... they just dont know the game well enough.... as with me and hockey
they play local but watch epl and there is nothing in between
please tell me how many levels between local rink hockey and the canucks ....... anyone ??
swampdonkey
Member
A couple of musings....
Why is it a country like Sweden with a population under a third of our own and restricted with similar weather can produce world class mens and womens soccer programs? I know nothing of their development program I am curious though.
Bluebird you're right there isn't any pyramid system which is why there isn't any loyalty among players and parents. They are and will continue to look for the next best thing in hopes of landing their kid a chance elsewhere, this is why the system is so flawed, TSS, Whitecaps, Y-League, the Provincial program etc.. alike poach kids from their club teams who are also offering Performance programs. The non-club programs often take precendent over the club teams, again eroding the sense of team and club.
The clubs are also to blame,they allow coaches to pull whole teams from one club to another - for a couple of reasons 1. money and 2. the team moving are generally higher level - metro, gold etc...and raise awareness and desire to stay in that club.
There is no easy answer, it is currently too splintered by performance clubs, development programs, club boards, district boards, metro boards, provinical and BC soccer boards all simultaneously trying to move their agenda for the "benefit of the kids", while cashing the registration cheque.
Bronco you're point about the cost of soccer, I would agree that lower level soccer is still very inexpensive but I know some youth metro programs (North Van) run over $1000.00 a year for basic registration. Surrey one of the larger clubs is over $500, and that doesn't include any additional costs for TSS, Whitecaps, Y-league, or development programs. Soccer is by no means an inexpensive venture for parents which is why so many of them have turned into total freak shows.
The system needs a total overhaul from top to bottom, then maybe systems similar to junior hockey can be evaluated or a national semipro system, but until then it'll be everyone for themselves from empire building coaches, to clubs, to parents, to players.
Why is it a country like Sweden with a population under a third of our own and restricted with similar weather can produce world class mens and womens soccer programs? I know nothing of their development program I am curious though.
Bluebird you're right there isn't any pyramid system which is why there isn't any loyalty among players and parents. They are and will continue to look for the next best thing in hopes of landing their kid a chance elsewhere, this is why the system is so flawed, TSS, Whitecaps, Y-League, the Provincial program etc.. alike poach kids from their club teams who are also offering Performance programs. The non-club programs often take precendent over the club teams, again eroding the sense of team and club.
The clubs are also to blame,they allow coaches to pull whole teams from one club to another - for a couple of reasons 1. money and 2. the team moving are generally higher level - metro, gold etc...and raise awareness and desire to stay in that club.
There is no easy answer, it is currently too splintered by performance clubs, development programs, club boards, district boards, metro boards, provinical and BC soccer boards all simultaneously trying to move their agenda for the "benefit of the kids", while cashing the registration cheque.
Bronco you're point about the cost of soccer, I would agree that lower level soccer is still very inexpensive but I know some youth metro programs (North Van) run over $1000.00 a year for basic registration. Surrey one of the larger clubs is over $500, and that doesn't include any additional costs for TSS, Whitecaps, Y-league, or development programs. Soccer is by no means an inexpensive venture for parents which is why so many of them have turned into total freak shows.
The system needs a total overhaul from top to bottom, then maybe systems similar to junior hockey can be evaluated or a national semipro system, but until then it'll be everyone for themselves from empire building coaches, to clubs, to parents, to players.
Granted, but that is still just a drop in the bucket compared to sports like hockey or football, that have, on top of registration fees that I would guess mirror those of soccer, ther additional costs of equipment. In relative terms, soccer is still the cheapest team sport to enroll a child into.
- Thread starter
- #38
Country like Sweden spends lots of time on development in the summer months. You have hudge tournaments in the area. Holad cup is one of the bigger ones plus Germany or France or Ingland or Rusia. That is how you develop kids. Tournaments are key to it. Work on fitness and skill for three weeks than go to a tournament. US is doing it for last ten years.And it shows in every age group. Kemloops has a good youth tornament in the spring. Us has five very good tournaments all with in hour and a half rom our border.
We will never lear anything while club cordinators controll the outcome of the games.
We have to get away and develop our kids. We have work way harder on fitness and on a mental part of the game.
We will never lear anything while club cordinators controll the outcome of the games.
We have to get away and develop our kids. We have work way harder on fitness and on a mental part of the game.
Granted, but that is still just a drop in the bucket compared to sports like hockey or football, that have, on top of registration fees that I would guess mirror those of soccer, ther additional costs of equipment. In relative terms, soccer is still the cheapest team sport to enroll a child into.
I have to agree with Bronco, having two kids who are very active in sports. This is the breakdown:
My son Hockey $Gear & registration aprox $1200, Dirtbiking (yes it is a sport) gear track time dirtbike $2500, Soccer soccer shoes shin pads registration and a big smile on his face $200.
Daughter Gymnastics $1000 for 4 months, dirtbiking uses her brothers dirtbike gear $500, Soccer LGYSA $250ish.
I'll take soccer as a parent anyday.
Thank God I have a great UNION job!
Yes, because we all know how secure those are.....just ask your brothers in the CAW!!!!!
But I digress......
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