How to improve youth development

[Toze]

Bronco's point about soccer being dwarfed by hockey is, in fact, understated.

I lived my first 30 odd years in the Vancouver area and started playing when I was five and all my friends were like me - soccer lads it was our game (of-course we loved to watch hockey and were canuck fans etc) and we lived largely in a soccer culture that went on to youth, premier, metro, college, vmsl div 2-premier etc.. It seemed as though soccer WAS a big deal - after all, everyone we hung out with and were our mates were of similar minds! But that was our little world.

I have lived the past six years in Northern BC, Alberta and now Ontario and can tell you our 'beautiful game' is of virtually no consequence to people where I've lived... that includes TV Sports Reporters with whom I work (me on the news end). EVERYTHING is hockey.

I am now in Sudbury and I went to a sports bar to watch the now infamous Canada vs Honduras match in Montreal and of the seven TV screens one had the MNT team all important game on... and of-course I was the only person watching it. Baseball seemed to dominate the other screens and the BIG screen - was reserved for a UFC event that was still about an hour away. A couple of loud guys seemed annoyed the soccer game was even on (the usual shite about it being a sport for queers etc.).

I know there are exceptions but.

Last thing - on the night when Canada hosted Jamaica down the road in Toronto when there was huge optimism in the air I mentioned to the head of sports for a large Ontario TV station that we might want to get score and hi-lights for the late sportscast - he kind of laughed and brushed it off as 'no one cares'. I'm not sure what he used instead but junior hockey a likely candidate.

 

[Dude]

As a parent w/ a kid who has- to the detriment of my wallet- gravitated to expensive sports like hockey, skiing, and BMX racing, I totally agree that soccer is way, way cheaper. Not even close.

Even at the "Rep" levels and academies, etc...it still isn't close. On a lot of levels. Soccer is still treated by most as the secondary sport. A lot of the kids enrolled are those children of parents who can't be fcuked to wake up at 5:30 once or twice a week for a hockey practice, or don't want to deal w/ the perceived politics of hockey, or...name your weak sauce excuse.

In so many ways Bronco is right...there is an inbred passion for hockey here that is just not as prevalent in soccer.

That said, I still disagree w/ the notion that on a micro scale you can't built a similar model. The addition of two more MLS teams across Canada would be immense to that degree. Too bad Montréal is out of the running.

Oh, and Bluebird: I don't think you can even look at the local rink. Once a guy is there, there is essentially no dream of getting to the show. There is the odd former pro...maybe a former AHLer, or WHL player, or European journeyman playing at say a div. 1 level, but all those guys are well past their pro careers. In hockey, you begin to develop a professional attitude once you're into the Junior A or Major Junior level. That's where the real pro development occurs, when they are 16-18.

 

[johnnybluenose]

The guys I knew and played with during my hockey career (Played a bit of junior and such) made the changes they need to make in their lives starting at the ages of 13-15 on the training side (like going for runs in the morning before school and extra training after school and before bed, shooting pucks till they couldn't hold the stick anymore against the garage door for hours) and then the big sacrifices came at 16-18 when we were out looking for someone to buy us booze and we were looking to pick up girls, they were at home tucked in bed. The guys that are willing to make those sacrifices comes at that age.

I played with and against a few NHL'ers and other pro's (Europe or AHL and ECHL) all of those guys did that stuff to make themselves into what they are now/were for a brief while at the ages of 13-15 for training and avoided the "piss away your career" moves...or as my boss calls them "Career Limiting Moves"

 

[Hibee]

Having been part of youth development full time for the past few years it's been interesting reading all your comments. Most of what has been written has already been researched and documented in the "wellness to world cup document" for those that were unaware of its existence.

You will notice all the points already made as well as hundreds of others why soccer in Canada has failed to progress. It also has a plan for how to change from here on.

http://www.canadasoccer.com/wellness/2008_LTPD_Wellness.pdf

 

[Hibee]

Try this one

http://www.canadasoccer.com/wellness/2008_WellnessWorldCup.pdf

 

[swampdonkey]

Hockey has the upside of the "Bantam draft" as well where some of the cream is skimmed from the top early - kids get invites at young ages. As a player you get to see who's at the level and where you might need to go and quickly if you're chasing that carrot.. with soccer it doesn't occur at that age and certainly not on the same magnitude, sure some high quality kids get picked up but that's the exception not the rule, which leaves the "trouble" years of 14/15/16 to distract yourself and lose focus chasing panties and pot.

 

[johnnybluenose]

Why do kids get invites? Because there is money to be made, by private enterprizes where often times (as a rule, however there are exceptions) politics don't get in the way.

For instance,

You have Dave. He is a 14 year old kid playing hockey in Surrey. He is regarded in the local hockey world as in the top 10 in his age group. He turns 15 where he is selected by The Vancouver Giants in the Bantam draft, he goes to the Delta Ice Hawks for one season while he grows stronger and plays in the league for one year with kids his age up to the age of 20. He then goes to the Giants, plays two years and is selected in the first round of the NHL entry draft. The Giants get money, as well as the Ice Hawks in spinoff revenue.

Now if Dave played soccer, and was logjammed because his dad nailed the coaches then girlfriend at a party when they were Dave's age, Dave's dad needs to send Dave to Europe if he has any shot, since said local BC Soccer or CSA Coach has a hate on for him, he has no shot in the Canadian soccer scene. Why? Because there isn't a Ron Toigo that will not allow said coach to block his private enterprise from making money. When it is run by bureaucrats they can make it up as they go along, because often times, there is nobody to answer to.

Don't say I'm full of it, I have seen it happen. Seriously.

 

[Dude]

I had no idea that was KNVB's real story. So sad, and the abuse only continued into men's league.

Dave, ask the old man if tapping the Marty's bird was worth it.

 

[Mr Base]

Four tournaments in the summer,kids get to play atleast fifteen games. Coast can be as low as five hundred per child. Winter months are to cold for most of the kids to develop.
Kids hate cold and most of them quit by the time they are fifteen. It is no fun practicing in the cold and wet winter months.
What i find the hardest is to see a 17 year old that has no confidance to take on a player one v one. Or he or she have no confidance to speak out or to go hard in a tackle. Only hockey players go hard just because they leard in the other sport. What is your guys opinion on this?

 

[Dude]

I think this post goes under the category of, "If I could understand what he's saying, I may be able to answer."

For now, the answer is one of the following:

~Yes.
~No.
~True.
~False.
~C.

 

[swampdonkey]

Is it bad if I can understand all of his post now?
Does that mean he's winning?

 

[Dude]

Gonna have to go w/ C there Swampdonkey.

 

[Mr Base]

Swampdonkey we all win if we help eachother. That is what soccer is all about.
If it is gold level than it should be a gold level . Some clubs have ten selct players playing in a gold level. Smoking teams and thinking that that is the way to hold an upper class. Somthing is wrong in my opinion. Farness has to come in to play. It is about player development and not about controll of the system.
See this way we have only ten players at the end of a year. With fareness we could have fifty. I have been doing this for thirty five years and do see very well what the problem is. You can take fifteen silver players and bring them up to gold level. But you will not win if a ref gives home team two goals that should never be alowed. That is the problem. Development must be more fare. That will let all the kids move forward. This is why fights happen. That's why players get suspended for two three years. It is all about controll and not about development. You as a coach can take it for so long and than you look in the mirror and you see sad face. You ask your self why do I have to do this? And most of the guys walk away. That is why i said to go to tournaments. Most of them are very up front all about buisness. Fareness is all we need. This country has got more soccer players than many other countries . We sit around 80 in the world, a loughing stock, not because we do not have players. We sit there only because we do not have a club for them to develop for higher levels. All they do is blame the coach. We must change our selves first then demand from our upper coaches. Lets hear it from you boys.

 

[djones]

Djones,

You have some great points regarding how youth development should be structured. it doesn't fix the problem of who gets selected into such a system but the structure is very important.

I disagree with you though on the importance of having a pro team at the top of the pyramid. It is very important to have that carrot up there dangling in front of a kid who is a great athlete and is trying to decide which sport to put his effort into.

If a viable business model can't be sustained at the top level paying good wages to the players, there isn't much hope for long term success in developing players beyond the current levels. Having a domestic team that pays well is crucial to the sport and it can't be an altruistic venture, the owner has to able to make money.

If the people who are applying to the MLS are saying they are going to help soccer development in this country, they speak the truth...it doesn't preclude the need for other changes in the system as well though.

Hey, don't get me wrong. I would love to have a top tiered league in this country. We need it desperately. I just don't think that MLS is the answer. In fact, I know it's not! Not right now.

Having something to aspire to is a good thing. But it's only one piece of the puzzle. Before you can become a doctor, you have to graduate high school! Besides, ask any up and coming youth player and the carrot they are chasing is the EPL and not MLS no matter how unrealistic it might be.

My issue with getting a pro team(s) in MLS (let's be honest, we will only get one or two more teams at best!) is the fact that we'll turn to it for the answer to our problem (developing players), kinda like putting all our eggs in one or two basket. We need buckets and bucket loads of young prospects - not baskets. This doesn't always work as Man United, Chelsea, Liverpool and Real Madrid will attest to. That's why the have become so dependant on buying players. As you know we can't buy players to play for Canada. We can't even keep the good ones that we got!

Once we start going down this road and feeding this monster we'll find that it won't play well with others and will only die when it chooses to thus never solving our problem. The monster will only look out for itself and forget the rest and, rightly so - it has to. It's a business and like any successful business it will seek out any rival program as competition and destroy it or make it a subsidiary commodity. It's already like that now. Washington Premier and Crossfire FC from Washington State are experiencing this right now with Sounders FC coming in and starting their US developmental teams. Sounders want first choice of players over established clubs who have been in the league way longer, in the player developmental game for many, many years and are extremely successful!

Because of our naivety and lack of leadership in our national organization (CSA), we will become totally dependant on this system as they will have no power to control this monster. Unfortunately, it will never produce enough players to solve our enormous problem no matter how efficient they think they will be. It won't develop enough players/coaches because the countries below us are doing a better job on a more massive scale WITHOUT depending on their pro teams!

Another thing to remember is that the Provincial programs from all provinces (10) have programs and NTC centres developing talent (not very well, IMHO). We are now planning to hand it this job over to 3 clubs? 10 to 3 and this is our answer to competing with the best in the world? I had little hope of Canada ever making it to the World Cup but if this transpires, I've given up all hope! I've been to Mexico to see how their program works and it is not ruled by the big one, two or three clubs. Would the US do this? Would Honduras? Would Haiti? I doubt it!

I feel that a junior league will create a need for a professional league/team(s). We aren't developing enough to supply one Canadian team with Canadian talent. How are we going to supply a second franchise? If mid level teams like West Ham, who have one of the best developmental programs in England, can't depend on their program to supply them with talent to keep them in the EPL with all their professionalism, should we?

Would the England National Team depend on only one or two teams?

Do I want the Whitecaps to get an MLS franchise? Sure. Is it the answer to our problem - NO! Is there a better answer - YES!

I also think that with all that money being thrown around by Kerfoot, Melnyk, Nash, Gillett, the Yahoo guy and Saputo (we're talking close to 100 million US dollars) that they could finance a junior AND Canadian Pro League quite comfortably for many years just like Lamar Hunt, Anheuser-Busch and a few others did when they decided to create this fantasy league called Major League Soccer. That's what I call development for the good of Canadian soccer!

 

[Bronco]

Last edited by Mr Base; 11-25-2008 at 09:31 PM.

 

[moneyman]

You look at youth development and if you are trying to compare Canada to other countries yes coaching is a big deal but really how many hockey players come from england or these third world countries like Scotland Ranger Forever. Where is our focus as a country? Hockey it gets the funding the exposure and I am probally safe to say it gets most of the elite athletes. How many of these professional hockey players do you think could have been professional soccer players? On a different note look at these third world countries there population is how many more times greater than Canada. These kids grow up with no video games no tv there time is spent playing soccer. Soccer is there way out of poverty, now compare that with a canadian kid who has been handed everything in there life who do you think is going to succeed.


$$$MAN

 

[Bifficus]

Having read most of the posts and having two children in the sport (ages 7 and 9) I think some of us are missing the point. The training and development is the issue. Without training and development the kids that want to achieve higher goals will never do so.
Both my kids go to extra practices run by coaches (for free) and all they concentrate on are ball handling skill. While this is great, the kids very rarely learn how to pass the ball or controll it when the ball is coming at great pace towards them. Note also, that when kids are finally chosen for rep teams - (U11 now) They have extra practices, again for the most part so far, all about ball handling and movement.
In my opinion, humble as it may be, I think the coaching has to improve. Having CCC, CCY and CCS is a start, but if the parents who take this don't actually apply what they learn from these courses - what is the point?
Example: We practice on a field with 6 other teams. For the last three weeks two teams have taken the two nets and had a game. Explain to me how this benifits the players, when probably half to 2/3 of them barely touch the ball- except to kick it out of play.
Without the fitness (which is sorely lacking with the kids), coaching and playing time (ie one practice a week, one game = 2 hours) this style of play (run and gun) is never going to work- at any level.
Back in the 80's the youth team I used to play on practiced twice a week for 1-1/2 hours each time and then had a game on the weekend. This was without lights. Now with lights and turf the kids - if lucky at the u10 level get one practice and a game. Although next year at the u11 level - if he makes the team - he is supposed to be practicing 3x per week @ 1-1/2 hours plus one game. The problem is it is only for the elite teams. If your son or daughter doesn't play on one of these team they are SOL and if you are coaching a team that isn't elite - you have to sneak onto a field and hope you don't get fined for being on the wrong field.

Sorry to ramble - but this issue shouldn't just be about the elite players - soccer is a lifelong sport and we should recognize that all players develop at a different pace.

 

[Dude]

Hey…this is somewhat off topic but related…

Last night, before my son’s house league hockey game (he’s 1st year Atom, which is 1999 and 1998 born players), I sat w/ one of his coaches and marveled at the pace of the practice of the AAA Atom Rep team. Langley has three levels of Rep: AAA, AA, and A. AAA being the highest.

The coach went on to tell me that a couple of these kids just played house the year previous, but they all had two things in common: incredible passion for the game (these kids are always in the basement w/ a puck, shooting till their arms fall off), and parents who not only support them in all aspects hockey, but even push them. Winter, Spring, Summer Camps…then Rep try outs that start 2nd week of August! All told he figured they may get 2 weeks off all year.

Now, I have to admit that my son would have been hard pressed to make even the lower level rep this year- still a bit small, and it appears he’s inherited his father’s stone feet in his hands. But he has the enthusiasm, and is definitely a rep level skater. I’m quite confident he’d have made A in Cloverdale- where he used to play- but Langley is simply so much more competitive. He’d have made a couple of rounds of cuts.

But, his old man missed the try outs because I wasn’t keeping contact. On the weekend they started, we were BMX racing in Kelowna. This was mid August, temps in Kelowna were hovering near 40 deg C. He also didn’t play on a Spring select team (he was offered a try-out) because we were too busy skiing- and having a blast doing it.

Co-incidentally, as we marveled at the pace of this practice, his coach tells me that his son didn’t even want to try out. His son would easily be a rep A or AA player. He also told me that he’d played hockey his whole life, including an NCAA career. Never did he play spring league, and only late in his career did he bother with rep. He played other sports, skied a lot, swam a lot, and spent his summers enjoying being a kid till he was about 15. He went on to tell me that he felt most of these kids will burn out in two / three years.

So, my point is…what is the point? I guess w/ hockey you can justify it all, because we have such a huge base, and even it you burn out 90% of the elite players, the remaining 10% at the top of the pyramid is still higher in numbers and better in quality than the rest of the world. But….but, but, but…

What happened to just letting kids be kids, and play a whole bunch of sports? What are coaches’ opinions on specialization vs. exploration?

 

[Bifficus]

Kids should be allowed to be kids. Case in point, my son wants to play baseball this year. He will. He also wants to play ball hockey. If there is no major conflicts - ie will miss 80% of practices/games of one sport - then he will be allowed. The problem is to much sport specific training. I agree that they need to practice and play more, but they also cannot just be involved exclusively in one sport and never develop any other skills.

 

[swampdonkey]

100% agreement.

When I was a pup I played four or five sports. Soccer season was only 3 months long in the great north of BC so that helped. But let's be honest maniacal training and focus on any one sport will lead to a lot of burnout, and while it will help with skill, it won't create the most essential of ingredients in kids that create high level athletes, desire, competitiveness, and raw talent.