How will HPL affect Gold/Silver levels

[Dude]

Re: Info on websites.

Most clubs are run as societies under BC Society Act. The society has rules about major changes and notifying the membership. Likely, like the Breakers, most clubs are holding a general membership meeting complete w/ Q&A sessions, since it's a major topic that should be discussed in an open forum.

Likely after that you'll see info on website.

 

[bettermirror]

I gotta agree with you there dude. Thanks for that reminder. I wonder though why not even be posting things like BCSA & Whitecaps supporting HPL "click link to read more."??

 

[Dude]

I gotta agree with you there dude. Thanks for that reminder. I wonder though why not even be posting things like BCSA & Whitecaps supporting HPL "click link to read more."??

Because they are likely volunteers with other things going on in their lives. Societies may have some paid positions, but most of the work is done by volunteers with busy lives. Hell, I barely have time to update my own companie's website enough!

That, and you still have to have a BOD meeting to make decisions, even about simple matters of informing the membership. I.e.: what message will be put out, contacts for questions, etc. If you've ever sat on a board, you know what I'm getting at...getting the BOD together for more than twice amonth is very tough, with everyone running around these days.

Anyhow, what you speak of is easier said than done in the type of environment of regulations the society has to operate under.

 

[islandsoccer]

Technical Director- SU probably have the best TD in BC in Jeff Clarke who has played at the top level and still does so and is a very good organizer.
QUOTE]

Wonderful! I think you hit the ball into the upper corner with the last part of your statement. There are lots of HeadCoaches and TDs that are good Soccer teachers and tacticians, there is a subset that have the organizational skills to do the org/admin work that is involved. So if you have to pay say $60-90k for a TD if you don't need to add an administrator making $40-60k (full time at the district level) then its a big win. In theory....

 

[GEORDIE]

Gold 1 should be nearly as strong as some of the HPL teams ,as some players will have a point to prove if they missed out on HPL .

 

[Regs]

Are there any current Gold 1 teams nearly as strong as current Metro teams? What's the difference?

 

[bravedart]

Are there any current Gold 1 teams nearly as strong as current Metro teams? What's the difference?

Absolutely...some Gold 1 teams are stronger than some Metro teams.

The caliber of players in Tier 1 programs at small clubs/districts on average could compare with the caliber of players in Tier 2 programs at larger clubs/districts.

Look at the Boys U14A selects division compared to the boys 5 District U14 Gold (BC Soccer Central. Surrey FC and Whalley combine resources at the selects level yet at the Gold level they have 3 teams competing and they are positioned in 1st, 3rd and 5th place. It is a safe bet that two of these three "Gold" teams could combine to create a Selects team that performs consistently better than the Langley or Abbotsford Selects and could possibly challenge for a top 8 spot.

There are many other examples on the girls side that match this...(gmsl.ca vs bccgsl.ca).

These issues tend to crop up because of the closed market that exists (district boundaries). Teams can only carry 3 players from outside of their district (at U16 or below) and 5 players after that (this number was only recently increased and is due to player attrition...kids get tired of playing in the same environment and against the same opponents for 6 years yet the number of top tier teams never seems to decrease the caliber of player just gets more and more diluted.

The HPL move and the adoption of an open market (i.e. no district boundaries) is a positive move and will finally allow our top tier players choice based on how they perform and not based on where they live. All those Gold 1 kids at Surrey FC and Whalley could try out for and make a CMF tier 1 team in the HPL but could not do so under the current Selects league so the level of competition at our top tier gets driven up and the level of competition at the Gold 1 level should increase too given that the top third of Tier 2 kids are a short step away from displacing the bottom third of Tier 1 kids (assuming the Tier 2 league operates under similar guidelines as the Tier 1 league).

 

[What' all this then?]

The HPL move and the adoption of an open market (i.e. no district boundaries) is a positive move and will finally allow our top tier players choice based on how they perform and not based on where they live. All those Gold 1 kids at Surrey FC and Whalley could try out for and make a CMF tier 1 team in the HPL but could not do so under the current Selects league so the level of competition at our top tier gets driven up and the level of competition at the Gold 1 level should increase too given that the top third of Tier 2 kids are a short step away from displacing the bottom third of Tier 1 kids (assuming the Tier 2 league operates under similar guidelines as the Tier 1 league).

Note what Richmond 12 posted in the HPL forum:
How does the transition work between tiers? Can the HPL just call boys/girls up whenever they want? Feb 2013 can a HPL team just take away a tier 2 player from their team? The player cut won't play from Nov untill Sept (tier 2 season start)."

The HPL's committee members response at meeting is basically don't worry we'll figure it out. Trust us. Not this member.

 

[bravedart]

Note what Richmond 12 posted in the HPL forum:
How does the transition work between tiers? Can the HPL just call boys/girls up whenever they want? Feb 2013 can a HPL team just take away a tier 2 player from their team? The player cut won't play from Nov untill Sept (tier 2 season start)."

The HPL's committee members response at meeting is basically don't worry we'll figure it out. Trust us. Not this member.

A good question that I don't think there is an answer for. I do know that the community administrative and technical people involved in the decision making process for the HPL are knowledgeable individuals with strong soccer backgrounds who can see these issues from a broad perspective. I would venture that most HPL awarded clubs will also position themselves to operate teams at a Tier 2 level so that rather then work with a Tier 1 ans a Tier 2 teams the operate with a roster of 30 to 35 players and award the consisted high performers with selection to the Tier 1 roster on a regular basis. With this set-up no player is ever actually "dropped" from Tier 1 but would be gradually phased out from that clubs Tier 2 environment.

If an HPL club does not operate both Tier 1 and Tier 2 teams then it would be a harder transition for someone dropped from the Tier 1 roster however I am confident that most Tier 2 teams would keep roster spots open for just such an occasion...many metro and selects teams currently do this just in case a talented out of district player comes along that they want to pick up. Many tier 2 clubs would want to pick up a tier 1 player for their roster even if they have just been "cut"...and Nov. is a long way away from the transfer deadline of Jan. 15. Besides, any worthwhile coach is going to be in communication for several weeks and possibly months with a player they are considering dropping...this should never come as a surprise to the kid/family. Any tier 2 club, not officially associated with a tier 1 club, should be in communication with tier 1 coaches to see what is going on and if there are opportunities for players to move up or to support players moving down.

The tryouts for Tier 1 in Feb/March every year is a different story. For players moving up to tier 1 from tier 2 this may be a bit more difficult. Again, it really only becomes an issue in HPL clubs who do not operate a tier 2 program. HPL clubs who operate both tier 1 and tier 2 will most likely bring new talent into their combined training group and see how they perform (that's what I would do). HPL clubs with out a tier 2 program will most likely have to wait for a kid they have selected to complete his current club commitments (the second he team has completed all league games and is eliminated from cup). There could also be cooperation between both teams that player will be associated with (i.e. he trains with Tier 1 team 2x a week and with his Tier 2 team the rest of the time until commitments are done) If coaches are truly acting in the best interest of the player the will want to see him exposed to the best training environment and still be able to honorably fulfill his current commitments.

I don't know if this will actually happen but it makes sense to me and would be what I would try to do. After a few years of this you will find that clubs will be cooperating with each other more than they do now and fewer kids will be getting screwed over by tryouts. HPL coaches will want the best players and will go out to look for them (because with no boundaries they can come from anywhere unlike today where most select/metro coaches pretty much know all the gold players in their district). Teams won't be selected based on try-outs alone and you will see teams formed based more on their ability to recruit and develop talent from tier 1 into tier 2. It may take a few year but the "market" will settle down once everyone has a routine and appropriate cooperation is in place between tier 1 and tier 2 clubs.

That is my guess/hope anyway and is certainly what I will be working toward if I am in any position to do so.

 

[bettermirror]

yes for sure! excellent post bravedart. The proof will be in the pudding, so the saying goes. If HPL teams are building strong relationships with the Tier 2 teams than transitions will be smooth and in best interests of players. If HPL teams are "bullies" than it will be horrible. Of course there will be the odd coach or even tier 2 club that wants to hang onto their players and refuse to cooperate with an HPL team.

But yes, HPL should have a tier 2 team they are either directly associated with so they can carry a roster of up to 36 player, divided amongst the HPL and Tier 2 team. That way kids can move from Tier 2 to HPL on a seemless permit-basis, and train with HPL once or twice a week. The issue if the tier 2 team is not in the same club as the HPL team would be insurance though. Ie, a kid from the district of Alouette might not be able to train with an HPL team from Surrey unless they have signed a temporary transfer pemit, but that might mess up the eligibility for him to play in a tier 2 game.

No easy answer...Also, the districts would have to approve a tier 2 HPL team entering their league. That might not happen....? Although it seems as though all districts are in support of HPL so I doubt it would be an issue.

What you might see is a kid registers for tier 2 in Spring signs a permit to play for HPL from spring through August, then returns to the tier 2 team for Sept-Nov as per the tier 2 fall-winter league schedule.??

 

[Timberwolf]

Interesting comments bravedart. I agree that it will take a couple of years for the market to settle down, but it will also take some very brave and possibly unpopular decisions by club BOD's to effect the necessary change to allow the proper athlete development model to take shape.

HPL will be a significant challenge sell on the Island, from both a logistical and political standpoint. In the coming weeks a LISA committee will be meeting to discuss how Tier 2 might look on the South Island. However in reality that discussion has to include upper island because without their involvement in Tier 2 the Island risks falling farther behind the LM. There simply isn't enough players on the South Island (7,800 registered players) and too many clubs (ten) and I believe the upper island is similarly constrained. I'm hopeful an Island Tier 2 league can be formed consisting of 7-8 clubs (as was suggested to the Island by HPL proponents, likely based on demographics more than anything else) and run on the same calendar as HPL. IMHO an island league is a priority if the Island HPL franchise is to be successful.

What's interesting is the model is already road-tested somewhat. Campbell River BU18's joined the LISA league this season (for a time) and I understand Nanaimo and Oceanside have also expressed an interest at other competitive levels. An Island soccer league, perhaps even on a U14, U16 and U18 basis for the initial season, might possibly keep up with Tier 2 on the LM. I know the reps from some of the up-island clubs I've spoken with were very receptive to the idea so we'll see soon enough.

 

[GEORDIE]

Note what Richmond 12 posted in the HPL forum:
How does the transition work between tiers? Can the HPL just call boys/girls up whenever they want? Feb 2013 can a HPL team just take away a tier 2 player from their team? The player cut won't play from Nov untill Sept (tier 2 season start)."

The HPL's committee members response at meeting is basically don't worry we'll figure it out. Trust us. Not this member.

There,s so much going on within such a short time frame . Will the tryouts for Gold/Silver still go ahead in late March cus i,m sure there will be players amongst the players trying out for Gold who are good enough for HPL. The tryouts for Gold/Silver should be put back to April . The tryouts are only a few weeks away and the majority of parents are not even aware of the HPL etc.

 

[bravedart]

There,s so much going on within such a short time frame . Will the tryouts for Gold/Silver still go ahead in late March cus i,m sure there will be players amongst the players trying out for Gold who are good enough for HPL. The tryouts for Gold/Silver should be put back to April . The tryouts are only a few weeks away and the majority of parents are not even aware of the HPL etc.

I would expect this to be so. From my experience most Gold/silver tryouts have not started until late April anyway.

What will be interesting is how the HPL clubs will arrange their try-outs. Given this is a new step for every one all the clubs will have to run try-outs and select the majority of their teams based on that process. Some clubs will look to be first out of the gate and finish as early as possible hoping that they can solidify the strongest candidates, some will look to stretch theirs out over a longer period of time. With open boundaries it becomes very interesting for this initial stage.

Players not making an HPL roster may now look to try-out based on the location of the HPL club they may be best able to make in the future. For example, a player from Surrey may have had no chance of making a Surrey based HPL roster but was very close to making a Vancouver/Richmond HPL roster. Assuming this player will get selected to a tier 2 team does s/he try-out for a tier 2 team in Surrey or in Van/Rich given they may now be restricted to out-of district rules. These are the situations that will come out of the cracks...tier 2 teams now having too many out of district players to choose from. If boundaries continue to exist at the tier 2 level you may find another vote at the BCSA AGM to increase the allowable allocation from what it is now.

There may even be a cooperative agreement between clubs not to confirm players until after a certain date and to communicate openly about the players who are attending each clubs try-out sessions (this happened with SYL some years back).

There will be plenty of time to communicate the process to parents as nothing will really change during try-out season (except families will now have more choice) and given the real affect of the shift in season for the HPL will not really happen until Spring 2012 everyone will have time to adjust to the premise.

HPL is forcing clubs to cooperate in order to sustain competitive programs. HPL clubs will continue to find that they NEED to cooperate with Tier 2 teams/clubs in order to stay as competitive as possible because if they don't do it...everyone else will.

 

[What' all this then?]

Too many unanswered questions remain.
This is exactly why we should get the questions sorted out before the league is implemented.
What is the rush? Which U18 player (boy or girl) from BC is playing in the next world cup?

On another note, how do you know the districts support this? I know of two large districts that are very much on the fence.
Are senior members going to vote? That could open a huge can of worms.

 

[Mr Base]

All of you coaches be ready for anything. Nine out of ten kids will move up. Not down. If they kill div two. Than HPL is only for rich kids. Nothing to do with good players. It is very importand that the div two to HPL is Select program not a Gold program. Gold stay as is. All the cup play stay as is. Winner of Select cup moves to play against lowest level HPL team in a cup play. After that 1 v 12 and on. Top team from HPL represents the Provice in the Nationals.

 

[islandsoccer]

All of you coaches be ready for anything. Nine out of ten kids will move up. Not down. If they kill div two. Than HPL is only for rich kids. Nothing to do with good players. It is very importand that the div two to HPL is Select program not a Gold program. Gold stay as is. All the cup play stay as is. Winner of Select cup moves to play against lowest level HPL team in a cup play. After that 1 v 12 and on. Top team from HPL represents the Provice in the Nationals.

That may be the way the Mainland goes, not likely what will happen on the Island.
Three viable options exist for the Island:

1) UISA and Nanaimo top tier join the Gold level in LISA to become Tier2-island, either as a reduced 6-8 team divisional league so as to keep the competition level high
or
2) LISA forms 3 or 4 'dispensated' select teams that play UISA/Nanaimo dispensated teams for a true 'Island Select' tier 2, this can be done as a tourney
or
3) UISA/Nanaimo join LISAs Gold division under LISAs operating model
and of course option 4 is status quo.

really only options 1 and 2 are attractive but would require some change in thinking by the member clubs.... some would argue thats unlikely to happen any time soon.

Time will tell just how committed the Island is to being competitive with the Mainland going forward.

 

[Mal]

Too many unanswered questions remain.
This is exactly why we should get the questions sorted out before the league is implemented.
What is the rush? Which U18 player (boy or girl) from BC is playing in the next world cup?

On another note, how do you know the districts support this? I know of two large districts that are very much on the fence.
Are senior members going to vote? That could open a huge can of worms.

By all accounts Surrey U and CMF are guaranteed for HPL .
What dates do these 2 clubs hold their tryouts for Gold and Silver ?

 

[bettermirror]

^refer to their individual web pages.

 

[GEORDIE]

Absolutely...some Gold 1 teams are stronger than some Metro teams.

The caliber of players in Tier 1 programs at small clubs/districts on average could compare with the caliber of players in Tier 2 programs at larger clubs/districts.

Look at the Boys U14A selects division compared to the boys 5 District U14 Gold (BC Soccer Central. Surrey FC and Whalley combine resources at the selects level yet at the Gold level they have 3 teams competing and they are positioned in 1st, 3rd and 5th place. It is a safe bet that two of these three "Gold" teams could combine to create a Selects team that performs consistently better than the Langley or Abbotsford Selects and could possibly challenge for a top 8 spot.

There are many other examples on the girls side that match this...(gmsl.ca vs bccgsl.ca).

These issues tend to crop up because of the closed market that exists (district boundaries). Teams can only carry 3 players from outside of their district (at U16 or below) and 5 players after that (this number was only recently increased and is due to player attrition...kids get tired of playing in the same environment and against the same opponents for 6 years yet the number of top tier teams never seems to decrease the caliber of player just gets more and more diluted.

The HPL move and the adoption of an open market (i.e. no district boundaries) is a positive move and will finally allow our top tier players choice based on how they perform and not based on where they live. All those Gold 1 kids at Surrey FC and Whalley could try out for and make a CMF tier 1 team in the HPL but could not do so under the current Selects league so the level of competition at our top tier gets driven up and the level of competition at the Gold 1 level should increase too given that the top third of Tier 2 kids are a short step away from displacing the bottom third of Tier 1 kids (assuming the Tier 2 league operates under similar guidelines as the Tier 1 league).

What will be the impact on clubs who are trying so hard to get a HPL franchise but miss out . Many clubs are so desperate to get a HPL spot and will go to any means to achieve it even if it means joining forces with other clubs like CCFC .
As posted a few times only the elite 5% of players in each age group will make it onto the HPL teams while the majority 95% of players will still be playing in Gold/Silver .

 

[Dude]

Given the way HPL is currently set-up, as user pay and with player contracting exclusivity to one sport, what you'll see is a trickle down effect of tallent. HPL will not have the full range of the top players available; they will have the select few who are both able to pay the freight, and able to cough up the cash.

I know one of the famillies of a top U18 player out of North Van very well. This kid is also a future Olympic prospect in BMX, a sport that has high demands from May - October. As it is now they find a way to manage playing top fotty and the training and travel to the BMX National Series. Think they'll give up one for the other? No chance...and they COULD afford the HPL fees.

This kid is one example of many, many famillies who'll have to make the choice and likely choose Gold.

As for player migration between clubs, for the reasons mentioned (the flaws in HPL), and the fact that there are no boundaries for movement, I don't see having that HPL franchise affiliation as being a drawing card for players under that HPL level.

Be ready for a very strong Gold level for a very long time, as well as silver. Until the powers of the HPL come up w/ a plan to subsidize the players, the system is flawed and destined to fail.

And club TDs...the pressure is now on you guys to come up with a way of giving the best players in your club- likely Gold now- a clear development path.