Teachers: Do they deserve more money?

[Dial 9-1-1]

They are either seen as underpaid and overworked or underworked and overvacationed.

Me, personally, I think you cannot lump all teachers into the same category. Some can teach. Others can't. Some put in the extra time. Others are laying patches in the parking lot at 3:10. Those who do the whining are usually the ones who do the least. I say the government should get rid of the guaranteed salaries (pay scales according to years of experience and years of schooling) and pay according to what each individual teacher gives back to the school and to the district.

 

[Skip]

Being a teacher myself, I obviously have a bias here but I'll offer a few thoughts.

You are right in saying that there are all types of teachers, and we should not be grouped together. As in all other professions, there are those who work hard and go above and beyond, and there are those who f*ck the dog. Having taught for 8 years now, I would say that MOST teachers are diligent, and have the student's best interest at heart.

This part of your comment opens a huge can of worms IMO:

get rid of the guaranteed salaries and pay according to what each individual teacher gives back to the school and to the district.

There are many grey areas that must be considered when you try to determine what 'giving back to the school/district' might entail. Up until the last couple years, I spent a significant amount of time taking on duties other than teaching (Coaching, Staff Committee, etc.) Recently though, I have had to take a step back from these things to pursue a Masters degree. This meant that I would have to rush from teaching to my UBC courses a couple nights a week. So, I guess I would be one of those teachers 'laying patches in the parking lot at 3:10' in most people's eyes, and yet I would argue I am bettering myself as a teacher by educating myself further. I guess my point is, not everything is what it seems. If you're going to start talking about paying teachers by Merritt so to speak, and define that by the time we spend on campus, there would be many of us who would walk away frustrated.

~Skip

 

[Frevo]

Of course they deserve a raise... and also a governing body that has the interst of the students in mind. A review commitee that not only looks at how many pieces of paper you have beside your resume or letters behind your name, but at your actual in class results. pay the ones that do well more... education should be one of this countries foremost proirities as we are ( i believe) falling behind other countries. Teachers get to have this giant mob that protects each other as well as the union backing them. Sometimes teachers are just plain sh!t and should probably be standing in front of traffic instead of a classroom of students. It shouldn't be so easy for crapa$$ed teachers to keep their jobs.

 

[Dude]

This subject is the Seabiscuit of TTP. It has been beaten to a pulp, time and again, and inevitably turns into a heated debate, usually with NDP / union guys taking one side, and "big business conservatives" taking the other. So, if we could just separate political allegiances...

Personally, I feel that the role of a teacher is one of the most important we have in our society. There are good ones, and bad ones, but the role itself is of utmost importance to both parents and non-parents alike. If you are the single person saying "why should I take care of your kids", you needs to give your head a shake, because my kids will be running society when you are suffering in a rest home, with no children around to care for you.

Back to teachers roles: most level headed people hold teachers to the highest standards often reserved for doctors, politicians, engineers, and other key professionals in our society. Yet, we pay teachers like second class citizens, full stop. I had an in depth conversation with a kindergarten teacher this year, and I was embarrassed at what she claimed to make (something like $35K, plus benefits). In conversation with other teachers, I'm equally appalled. I have never walked away from a conversation w/ teachers thinking, "Wow, that sounds like a job I want". Yes, maybe I put too much into my lifestyle outside of work, but hey, most people do too, including teachers. This also may be simplistic, but when a cashier at Safeway or Save-on-Foods, or a trash collector can pull in better earnings and better benefits than a teacher, we have a societal problem. Yeah, they get 2 months off, but they deserve it, too.

Part of the societal problem is the BCTF. I truly believe that this union is destroying the teaching profession in this Province. This was cemented home for me when, in the last election, the BCTF reportedly "invested" over $10m in an anti-liberal advertising campaign. Talk about missed priorities...

If teachers want to be treated as professionals (as they should be), and command salaries as professionals (as they should do), the union element has to be removed, and a private element brought into the system. Teachers need to be paid well, then have their feet held to the fire for accountability.

Right now, the system is fcuked....flame away union guys.

 

[Captain Shamrock]

They are either seen as underpaid and overworked or underworked and overvacationed.

Me, personally, I think you cannot lump all teachers into the same category. Some can teach. Others can't. Some put in the extra time. Others are laying patches in the parking lot at 3:10. Those who do the whining are usually the ones who do the least. I say the government should get rid of the guaranteed salaries (pay scales according to years of experience and years of schooling) and pay according to what each individual teacher gives back to the school and to the district.

Absolutely, 911. I couldn't agree more. The teachers union caters to the incompetent teachers, like the ones you mention.


Personally, the $10.50/hour I was making in my last year in elementary teaching, was embarrassing. I based that on take home work/planning and of course coaching. And I'm not lying about the amount. That is what I was getting. My workload at home now is much less because my marking and planning loads are way down so I'm probably up to about $17/hour.

 

[Captain Shamrock]

This subject is the Seabiscuit of TTP. It has been beaten to a pulp, time and again, and inevitably turns into a heated debate, usually with NDP / union guys taking one side, and "big business conservatives" taking the other. So, if we could just separate political allegiances...

Personally, I feel that the role of a teacher is one of the most important we have in our society. There are good ones, and bad ones, but the role itself is of utmost importance to both parents and non-parents alike. If you are the single person saying "why should I take care of your kids", you needs to give your head a shake, because my kids will be running society when you are suffering in a rest home, with no children around to care for you.

Back to teachers roles: most level headed people hold teachers to the highest standards often reserved for doctors, politicians, engineers, and other key professionals in our society. Yet, we pay teachers like second class citizens, full stop. I had an in depth conversation with a kindergarten teacher this year, and I was embarrassed at what she claimed to make (something like $35K, plus benefits). In conversation with other teachers, I'm equally appalled. I have never walked away from a conversation w/ teachers thinking, "Wow, that sounds like a job I want". Yes, maybe I put too much into my lifestyle outside of work, but hey, most people do too, including teachers. This also may be simplistic, but when a cashier at Safeway or Save-on-Foods, or a trash collector can pull in better earnings and better benefits than a teacher, we have a societal problem. Yeah, they get 2 months off, but they deserve it, too.

Part of the societal problem is the BCTF. I truly believe that this union is destroying the teaching profession in this Province. This was cemented home for me when, in the last election, the BCTF reportedly "invested" over $10m in an anti-liberal advertising campaign. Talk about missed priorities...

If teachers want to be treated as professionals (as they should be), and command salaries as professionals (as they should do), the union element has to be removed, and a private element brought into the system. Teachers need to be paid well, then have their feet held to the fire for accountability.

Right now, the system is fcuked....flame away union guys.

**** the BCTF. A fcuking shambles.............

 

[Skip]

Agree with the Captain.

Unfortunately, the union has proven to be a blemish that teachers must deal with IMO. The truth is, many teachers dislike how the union chooses to represent them (including myself). Sadly, it is our only source of strength and opposition against a government that rips up contracts, and chooses to change legislation to limit our bargaining leverage.

0% increase in wages last contract, and gunning for the same in this one. I don't think it's too much to ask, to try to have a wage increase that reflects the cost of living. f*uck me!, the cost of gas alone will use up any increase we may get.

~Skip

 

[LFC2]

Correct me if I am wrong here, but I believe Dude's read on salaries is a bit low. Perhaps when you enter the profession you start there, but I believe a teacher having put in their time, tenish years, is somewhere in the $60-70K range. How much should teachers make???
Agree teachers that I know through soccer put in ridiculous amounts of time into the extracurricular stuff, sports teams and such. Perhaps if their are stipends paid for these things it would be more just. You will never get rid of the slackers from any working environment, just human nature that certain segments are going to take advantage of whatever system they can.
Anyways my two cents with about one cent worth of thought.

 

[Rangerforever]

Someone once told me that 'Teachers are people who went into the profession because they couldn't succeed at anything else.'

I've seen it.
"Hmmmm. I just got my BA in linguistics, and I don't know what I can do with my life because I can't get a job other than the current one I have at A&W".
"Hey! I know! Why don't I go back for a year, get my PDP and become a teacher!"
"Something I've never thought about, and don't know really know if I'll enjoy helping children but what the fcuk? I'll get 8 weeks summer vacation!"

However...
I've got two kids and must say the majority I've seen thus far are very, VERY decent folk.
I've got friends who are teachers (not you Skip) and also clients.
Most do it NOT for the money but because they enjoy it.
I see their T4 slips and trust me, they are not over paid.
They are educating our youth and how else as a society are we to progress if we don't have great people, motivated to teach, compensated fairly, sculpting these young minds?
They have to be paid accordingly.

Give them a raise.
Also, compensate the people who go above and beyond.
A teacher who takes extra time to rehearse class plays or coaches kids volleyball after hours should get paid overtime or an equivalent.

And it's the responsibility of good people like Skip and the Captain to ensure that their peers all perform.
Attend union meetings and staff meetings, perform peer reviews, etc. to ensure these piss-poor people who tarnish the good image of teachers get disciplined or have their asses canned like a tuna.

My two bits,

RF

 

[Skip]

LFC2,

Yes, with a Masters degree and 10 years teaching service one can max out at close to $70,000. Not a bad salary at all, with benefits and summers off, I agree. Keep in mind though, it takes 9 years of University to get to that stage. Most who have put that amount of time in, must surely be waiting for jobs that pay more. Maybe I'm wrong.

~S

 

[Rangerforever]

One other thing:

The pensions they get are absolutely incredible.

Which is why I got no time for cops, firefighters, and teachers when they whinge about take home pay.

Skip:
Cainy told me to tell you that you need new tires.
You better get to some new ones for September.

Chirp,

RF

 

[Skip]

Yes, the pension is great.....but you have to teach for 35 years to get it! You'd be astounded to learn how few ever reach that stage. Many burn out, and leave the profession long before getting close. Those who do, die shortly thereafter! Apparently, teachers have one of the worst stats for living after retirement.

Anyway, I'm not gonna bitch anymore cause I chose to go this route professionally, and so far it's done me well. I love september, when all the new young/hot student teachers arrive!

You lost me with the tire comment though big'un

~S

 

[LFC2]

LFC2,

Yes, with a Masters degree and 10 years teaching service one can max out at close to $70,000. Not a bad salary at all, with benefits and summers off, I agree. Keep in mind though, it takes 9 years of University to get to that stage. Most who have put that amount of time in, must surely be waiting for jobs that pay more. Maybe I'm wrong.

~S

What does one without a masters top out at?

 

[Captain Shamrock]

Correct me if I am wrong here, but I believe Dude's read on salaries is a bit low. Perhaps when you enter the profession you start there, but I believe a teacher having put in their time, tenish years, is somewhere in the $60-70K range. How much should teachers make???
Agree teachers that I know through soccer put in ridiculous amounts of time into the extracurricular stuff, sports teams and such. Perhaps if their are stipends paid for these things it would be more just. You will never get rid of the slackers from any working environment, just human nature that certain segments are going to take advantage of whatever system they can.
Anyways my two cents with about one cent worth of thought.

A category 5 teacher maxes out at 60000 in our district I think. However.....the districts in the Lower Mainland differ for some reason. Why the fcuk should a teacher in Richmond make more than a teacher in Delta? Aren't we all in the same union?


Anyway, out of curiosity, how many people on this forum LOSE more than they take home every month? I'm just curious because I know I have more deductions than net pay.

So to answer your question, no it's not enough.

 

[Rangerforever]

You lost me with the tire comment though big'un

Peeling out of the parking lot at 3:10 tends to wear the tires thin mate.

Chirp!

 

[Skip]

ahhh, gotcha RF.

Those damn speedbumps really slow the process down though.

 

[Yoda]

I love september, when all the new young/hot student teachers arrive!
~S

Are you sure you didn't mean students AND teachers?

 

[Skip]

Student teachers! Students are obviously out of the professional, and ethical domain with regards to admiring.

I will however, admit to being male....which in turn means that I am not immune to recognizing physical beauty, especially when in the female form.

~Ever Professional Skip

 

[Keeper]

For the record:

Pay schedule effective July 2003 - June 2004 (the last year of the previous contract), School District No. 40

Category 5
(4 year university degree + 1 year of teacher training [either PDP or B.Ed])

0 Years of experience: $38,811
12 Years of experience (max): $64,694

Category 6
(4 year university degree + 1 year of teacher training [either PDP or B.Ed] + masters degree)

Years of experience: $42,800
12 Years of experience (max): $71,462

------------------------------------

I hope there is no strike and I hope there is no work action.

I hope for more funding for teacher-librarians, resource/special needs-teachers, and class-size limits over any pay raise. Sure a raise would be nice, but I don't believe it's a (or the) priority at this time.

That said, what really annoys me during any work action is hearing about (some) parents who complain more about the lack of sports or other extracurricular activities available for their child than about the lack of interim reports or phone calls home.

 

[Aves]

a few responses

peeling out at 3:10...this is an inflammatory comment that skews the issue and doesn't really weigh all the variables. Some teachers stay at work to do their daily routine of paperwork...others may go home to beat the traffic...the pile of paper is stil there. And for those who don't coach or sponsor the dance club, well they are likely (in high school) teaching over 100 kids and are required to actually evaluate(mark stuff) and plan for their job, something that is quite difficult to do while you're teaching during the day (at the expense of ignoring your students)
+ when you're a young buck you can sacrifice your extra time more than when you've got a family, etc.

But for a school to run well you need a whack of people to step up and help out a bit...the system tends to ask/offer a lot for young teachers to get involved in a myriad of ways...but this level of extra involvement cannot be maintained for 20 /30 years for most people. I'm 15 in and I'm pulling back to focus more time on my kids ...that's my 1st priority now. Does that mean I get paid less because I'm not putting all the extra time in? The point being that it is extra time...yes it's necessary to have a great school but you can't mandate volunteerism and that is why the public needs to nurture/value teachers so that they feel valued and want to chip in extra. They know they aren't going to make extra cash so there needs to be a climate of support to help foster all that extra lovely stuff.

The standard of teaching today is better than when I was in school, there are many positive indicators that we have a great school system so quite frankly all the worry over the odd teacher is a smokescreen...a large majority are hard working and dedicated so the system seems ok to me...at least at my school. Besides the biggest motivation to do a good job (other than personal pride and to gain the respect of your friends that you work with) is so that you don't have to strong arm kids to behave and do their work...if you spend your day battling it is not fun.

One could say an adversarial union is the flipside to an adversarial employer (and perhaps vice versa) This union vs management model has existed for many years and it difficult to break. I agree that our union sticks its nose into too many side social issues but this is not to line our pockets. In some ways I support the hard lines because I say fcuk you to some of the bullshit coming out of Victoria...but the union is also hurting us in the public perception game....ahhh the ol' public perception...In the end, it seems to me that if you make more than me , you probably think I could get more and if you make less you think I do quite nicely...so it often comes down to the amount of dineros one makes that tends to inluence their outlook on this issue, and not coincidentally , many others.

In this dispute the govt has said no increase to any public sector contract so there's not much wiggle room...and they're not going to give back anything they already illegally stripped away so that seems to be moot. So basically we're fcucked and we know it. But what the hell are you gonna do? All this strike bullshit doesn't mean much because we'll be legislated back in no time anyways...RF you might have to read an extra story or two but all will be fine


Welcome back for another challenging and rewarding school year!