Teachers: Do they deserve more money?

[jaco]

What do teachers make nowadays anyways.

A neighbor of mine is a principal and his wife is a vice-principal and he says how he can't afford anything.

I figured teachers make $50-60k/year? Prinipals maybe 75$k?

 

[suburbanator]

From the amount of vacation time per year .

What does the vacation time have to do with it?

$65000 K per Year.
190 Days of Work in a Year (vs. 250 for average Joe)
8 Hour Day

Summary? $42 and change Per hour.

I pay my electrician $31, my Plumber gets $24 and I have to pay a speciality welder nearly $38. They went to School for 2-3 years each and they got to MAKE money while they did it. They also get to work as much as they want meaning they freq earn $70-80k.

If you are looking on a return on your investment teaching is a poor choice.. If you compare the cost to become a Dr, Lawyer or Even a generic Trades person teaching has a poor return imo.

More importantly?

Good Dr = $165,000
Bad Dr = $82,000

Good Lawyer = $248,000
Bad Lawyer = $61,000

Good Teacher = $58,000
Bad Teacher = $58,000

Bottom Line? People that are good at what they do have the opportunity to earn.

 

[girth]

How about if we were Americans then we'd be talking about raises?

 

[Keeper]

We'd also be talking about guns and metal detectors in schools.

Ormaybethat'sageneralization

 

[Dial 9-1-1]

A neighbor of mine is a principal and his wife is a vice-principal and he says how he can't afford anything.

I figured teachers make $50-60k/year? Prinipals maybe 75$k?

Jaco, tell your neighbours to quit blowing all their money on hookers and, well, more hookers.

VPs make approximately 75-80k. Principals make about 100k. They don't pay union dues either, but they do work more months than teachers.

The best perks, however, with administrative jobs (primarily at the high school level) are the "slush funds" they are in control of. Good luck finding an administrator who will let you look at their slush accounts and explain where all the money has gone. They, and the fat cats at the board office, truly are wasteful and are in no way fiscally responsible. I'm guessing that fine dining and phantom expenses cost each district a handful of teaching jobs per year.

If every teacher also gets his/her own expense account, all this strike talk will disappear!

"There's a Department meeting? Oh, I'm busy...I have an appointment...can't make it. What's that? We're meeting at Joe Forte's? The Department's paying? Er...is today the 19th? Oh, I thought it was the 20th. See you at Joe's."

 

[suburbanator]

The best perks, however, with administrative jobs (primarily at the high school level) are the "slush funds" they are in control of. ."

You gotta be kidding me.

Just because you thought of a way to rip off the public doesn't mean everyone else did. Though i do remember a secretary that got busted looting the petty cash or PAC funds or something...so its obviously possible.

I believe you are correct on the salaries however and to go with that Salary you have to be an cnut or or an arsehole and work with 22 teachers, 18 of which probably hate you and consider you to be the enemy.....mua hahahahaha

 

[Regs]

Perhaps a TTPer who is actually a principal could talk about this so-called slush fund?

I will ask Bigun to maybe log on and have a go (need to get him back here anyways with the NFL 4 & Out pool starting soon).

 

[Dial 9-1-1]

You gotta be kidding me.

I wish I were kidding you. In fact, I hear that there is a VP of Howe Sound Secondary in Squamish who submits receipts claiming to have eaten with the Premier.

 

[Yomama!]

Don't you mean a principal in Squamish? ie: NC

 

[Dial 9-1-1]

Don't you mean a principal in Squamish? ie: NC

Yes, Yomama, you are correct. NC got the promotion and is no longer a VP. I hear the woodshop teacher there, Dimitri Pilarinopoulos, has already offered to build her a new deck.

 

[Dial 9-1-1]

My Dad will be the 1st to tell you that there's many 20+ year veteran teachers who have burnt out and are NOT offering a good service to the students. They care little about the product they have been paid to produce and yet here they are at the peak of the salary scale surfing until retirement.

We then get Young teachers, say 5+ years experience still full of passion and enjoying the job, teaching with new techniques and offering a much more current bank of knowledge. These folks should get some rewards for significant class improvements and for proving to have the ability to handle our children in a successful manner. (Something which seems get harder every year as the age for drug use, sexual activity and behaviour problems gets lower).

Even these younger teachers have an advantage over my dad and his experience, You think my dad would recognize drug use, or any other problem that is a product of the 90's or later? NO..... My dad would have to see a kid wearing a "peace" headband to notice a problem. So here we have another example of the value of a fresh teacher.

I think there is a problem with any system that relies on JUST experience to dictate your earnings. Who doesn't pay more for quality?

Burb,
I'm curious what others think about this. I agree that younger teachers do have a lot to add, but a lot of young teachers today are clock watchers, don't put in extra time, and are not able to build relationships with kids. Why?

Well, my theory is that there was a period in the recent past when it was extremely competitive to get into the Faculty of Education. The deciding factor in choosing an entrant was solely marks.

Therefore, without generalizing too much, the person who hit the books the most and did not have a well rounded life (i.e. played sports, actually socialized with people, etc.) was chosen over the person who did not have the marks, but was probably the better teaching prospect overall. Plausible?

More importantly than the money, how about reducing their work load to a point where they are able to produce their best work.

Burb, you can tell your dad this and I'm sure he'll agree. Me, personally, I have never heard someone whom I consider to be an excellent teacher complain that they are over-worked. They might say that they are swamped, or that they have a lot of marking, but never will they say that it is unfair. In my experience, it's the ones who do the least who complain the most.

 

[barney]

For the record:


I hope for more funding for teacher-librarians, resource/special needs-teachers, and class-size limits over any pay raise. .

We did that a number of years ago. Went on strike for better conditions for our students, including more time for librarians, special ed teachers, and class sizes. We did not ask for, nor get, any raise at that time because we felt that the learning climate for our students were more important.
Guess what, the gains we made then went out the window when the Liberals threw out our agreements.

 

[girth]

I say eliminate the teachers and turn to home schooling 100%. No raises, no strikes and smarter parents as a result.

 

[Vaselos]

Well, my theory is that there was a period in the recent past when it was extremely competitive to get into the Faculty of Education. The deciding factor in choosing an entrant was solely marks.

Therefore, without generalizing too much, the person who hit the books the most and did not have a well rounded life (i.e. played sports, actually socialized with people, etc.) was chosen over the person who did not have the marks, but was probably the better teaching prospect overall. Plausible?

I couldn't agree with you more about his, and thus now we have too many teachers who cannot actually "teach" and deal with students on a social level to understand how to deal with their ever changing learning behaviour.

 

[Dude]

I call bullshit on that theory.

There are plenty of degrees and specialties that students can choose- ranging from teaching, to medical, to business, to engineering- that require the aspiring and driven student to "change their address to the library". If you want to graduate with honors, be top of your class, and be in a position to command the better jobs being offered to graduates, it takes that sort of dedication. It doesn't mean, however, one forgets about his or her past, or how to behave and excel in a social situation.

 

[Dial 9-1-1]

I call bullshit on that theory.

There are plenty of degrees and specialties that students can choose- ranging from teaching, to medical, to business, to engineering- that require the aspiring and driven student to "change their address to the library". If you want to graduate with honors, be top of your class, and be in a position to command the better jobs being offered to graduates, it takes that sort of dedication. It doesn't mean, however, one forgets about his or her past, or how to behave and excel in a social situation.

Dude...Yes there are exceptions to the norm, but I think you are giving the true bookworms too much credit in regards to their social skills.

When my buddy was interviewed for the Faculty of Medicine, the interview focused solely on current events and non-medical related questions. He got in even though others had higher GPAs.

When another buddy graduated from Law school, he and other aspiring lawyers were taken to restaurants and bars by law firms who were trying to get a better understanding (other than transcript marks) whether someone would be a nice fit for their firm.

The medical and corporate world seems to know that when choosing a suitable candidate, you cannot rely on GPA alone.

Considering how important social interaction is for teachers, I'm dumfounded that there is no formal interview process for all aspiring teachers.

Off on another tangent, maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea for school districts to look into a job applicant's prior empoyment history and see if this person was apt to call in sick regularly and/or slash the tires of his/her co-workers. Again, all in order to weed out the bad seeds before they pull in a full time job and cost the district more money and headaches down the road.

But I know that districts often have their hands tied. They have a shortage of substitutes and need to hire basically whoever applies. Once the bad seed gets in, it's only a matter of time until he/she gets a full time job. That's why it's so important to filter at the earliest stage so that they cannot get into the system.

 

[Keeper]

Considering how important social interaction is for teachers, I'm dumfounded that there is no formal interview process for all aspiring teachers.

There is a process, however, called a practicum, during which student teachers are monitored by their Faculty Advisor (who also deals with them on an individual basis over the course of a year), their sponsor teacher, and in some cases even the principal or vice-principal as well.

Believe it or not, this experience is not a cake walk. In fact, not all students manage to complete or pass it their first time (if ever). In addition, the candidate still must get him/herself hired by a school district on the basis of a comprehensive resume, reference letters (from their FA, sponsor teacher, and principal), and a "formal interview process".

Don't think for a second that merely an individual's GPA makes him a teacher outright.

I'm sorry, but your theory is hogwash.

 

[Keeper]

But I know that districts often have their hands tied. They have a shortage of substitutes and need to hire basically whoever applies. Once the bad seed gets in, it's only a matter of time until he/she gets a full time job. That's why it's so important to filter at the earliest stage so that they cannot get into the system.

Also, contrary to what you "know", most districts do not have a shortage of substitutes and do not need to hire basically whoever applies. Almost every district in BC is shrinking in student population, and districts are having to layoff teachers with years of experience (0 to 3 years, for example, in Coquitlam) and reassign them over the summer (this year, Coquitlam was unable to find places for all of them and many are have been returned to the T.O.C. list).

Do you honestly think that the education system doesn't try to "filter" good candidates from the poor ones? What do you think the hiring process is for?

 

[Dial 9-1-1]

There is a process, however, called a practicum, during which student teachers are monitored by their Faculty Advisor (who also deals with them on an individual basis over the course of a year), their sponsor teacher, and in some cases even the principal or vice-principal as well.

Believe it or not, this experience is not a cake walk. In fact, not all students manage to complete or pass it their first time (if ever). In addition, the candidate still must get him/herself hired by a school district on the basis of a comprehensive resume, reference letters (from their FA, sponsor teacher, and principal), and a "formal interview process".

Don't think for a second that merely an individual's GPA makes him a teacher outright.

I'm sorry, but your theory is hogwash.

Et tu, Keeper?

I'm saying GPA gets people into the program. Applicant A has nice reference letters and applicant B has nice reference letters. Applicant A has volunteer work Ditto for applicant B. A decision has to be made....is there an interview or do they look at GPA? That's my point.

As for your other points, I know from first hand experience how (near) impossible it is to fail someone on their practicum. After the student teacher was failed by both of her teacher sponsors (with the approval from the VP who sat in on her classes), the student teacher was given the opportunity to take another 6 week practicum and passed. She's since been picked up by another district since her original practicum reports were not used. The FA told me that once they are in and have paid their money, it's highly unlikely that they will not get their BEd. They do all they can to get them through.

Now, like I said...districts are short TOCs. Their hands are tied and need to hire someone...anybody. So you have an interview, and as long as the person doesn't come across as a COMPLETE wingnut, they are in. Your son or daughter's future English teacher.

Hogwash? I wish it were.

 

[Dial 9-1-1]

Also, contrary to what you "know", most districts do not have a shortage of substitutes and do not need to hire basically whoever applies.

I do "know" that, on a handful of occasions last year, I had to cover internally when the TOC list ran dry.

Do I blame the district for bad teachers entering the system?

Not as much as I blame

a) Teachers who do not have the balls to fail unworthy teacher candidates and/or get a student teacher for all the wrong reasons (so they can get a break from teaching).

b) The Faculty of Ed for not improving their due diligence PRIOR to an applicant being accepted and

c) The Faculty of Ed not having the balls to tell these candidates that they just aren't cut out to be teachers.

How exactly do you think crappy teachers got into the system, Keeper?