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De guzman blasts c.s.a for canada's qualification failure
- Thread starter Polska
- Start date
johnnybluenose
Well-Known Member
That is why he is the best player on his team in the spanish top flight?
Seriously...
De Guzman's problems with Canada are that he is best used as a defensive central midfielder, like he is with Depor, and yet the Canucks have him playing a more offensive role, he is a distributor, not a scorer.
He is affected by Hutchinson's poor play for Canada, and because Hutch cannot create, Mitchell leaned heavily on JDG to supply some goals and support for the strikers, which is not his game.
I can't take anything Mr. Base writes seriously, especially when he's claiming there are better players available to Canada in the VMSL than De Guzman. He may actually be the best player ever available to Canada, asside from Forest and Mitchell himself. So, what JDG does say does carry weight for me, even if his timing and delivery of the message appear bitter and opportunistic.
We all know that the CSA is full of problems. Dr. Phill couldn't fix this lot. My question, back to selecting Mitichell and now supporting him in this teams failure is, why? I don't know the man, my guess is that you do Jonesey...what is it about him that has so many insiders screaming their loyalty for him? It's an honest questions, because on paper- dispite what may or may not be extremmely poor support by the CSA- he failed miserably w/ two national side at times where optimism inside the community was extremely high for the tallent we were putting out there.
I'm just asking for some insight...
- Admin
- #24
This article sums up my feelings right now on the current CSA situation:
Don't sack Mitchell ... now | Other Sports | Sports | Toronto Sun
Change is happening but some have nothing better to do with their time except complain. God forbid some don't educate themselves a little more
Don't sack Mitchell ... now | Other Sports | Sports | Toronto Sun
Change is happening but some have nothing better to do with their time except complain. God forbid some don't educate themselves a little more
The following statement made the most sense to me:
That being said, I still question weather he's the right man for THIS job.
What couldn't they have Mitchell in a player development role, and as an assistant to a more experienced coach? At the International level, you need the experience a foreign coach may bring to the table. And, goes w/ out saying, you need to support him.
My question is this: is Mitchell either in over his head, not in the right job to suit his talents / knowledge, or both? Is it maybe a case of a misapplied asset to the organization? Because this statement makes a great deal of sense, but for me it still isn't a convincing argument as to WHY he should continue to be the head coach of the MNT.
My two bits.
That being said, I still question weather he's the right man for THIS job.
What couldn't they have Mitchell in a player development role, and as an assistant to a more experienced coach? At the International level, you need the experience a foreign coach may bring to the table. And, goes w/ out saying, you need to support him.
My question is this: is Mitchell either in over his head, not in the right job to suit his talents / knowledge, or both? Is it maybe a case of a misapplied asset to the organization? Because this statement makes a great deal of sense, but for me it still isn't a convincing argument as to WHY he should continue to be the head coach of the MNT.
My two bits.
johnnybluenose
Well-Known Member
I am feeling more and more that a very real reason we struggled a lot in this last campaign is because our player pool is too fractured relating to where they are playing and the lack of players playing in a credible league.
We have probably more players playing abroad than anyone else in our last qualification group (A guess, no facts to back it up) than the competition.
Adding two teams in MLS will help. I don't believe another run at a CSL will do any good, as the quality won't be there, or at least the PERCEIVED quality.
The Hondurans have their own league where most of the players play together save a few of their stars. The mexicans largely play here in NA in either the Mexican league or the MLS, again save a few real stars.
Most of the Canadians play abroad, save a few in MLS. But they don't play in good leagues, save De Guzman. Playing in Denmark or Sweden or Greece is not (I don't imagine) a whole lot better than in MLS, unless you are playing on a real powerhouse team.
As far as Mitchell, it is what it is. I think his coaching tactics left a lot to be desired, but that was my opinion, many have differing opinions.
There is obviously something wrong if all the players are not backing him up if a few spout off, I have only seen one guy back him, the keeper who bungled the first game against Jamaica.
As far as the V's... I am done reading that forum. They would be hard pressed to organize a piss up in a distillery. They are great to function as a supporters club, and have pre game pissups at pubs etc...but for them to come up with "Sack the CSA" campaigns is laughable as they cannot agree on how they want their scarfs to look.
It may be a pipe dream, but I figure 2 or 3 strong MLS teams based in Canada, with a majority of the National Pool players playing in MLS (Canadian based or otherwise) would put our team on better standing when it comes to qualification for the WC and other tourneys like the Gold Cup.
We have probably more players playing abroad than anyone else in our last qualification group (A guess, no facts to back it up) than the competition.
Adding two teams in MLS will help. I don't believe another run at a CSL will do any good, as the quality won't be there, or at least the PERCEIVED quality.
The Hondurans have their own league where most of the players play together save a few of their stars. The mexicans largely play here in NA in either the Mexican league or the MLS, again save a few real stars.
Most of the Canadians play abroad, save a few in MLS. But they don't play in good leagues, save De Guzman. Playing in Denmark or Sweden or Greece is not (I don't imagine) a whole lot better than in MLS, unless you are playing on a real powerhouse team.
As far as Mitchell, it is what it is. I think his coaching tactics left a lot to be desired, but that was my opinion, many have differing opinions.
There is obviously something wrong if all the players are not backing him up if a few spout off, I have only seen one guy back him, the keeper who bungled the first game against Jamaica.
As far as the V's... I am done reading that forum. They would be hard pressed to organize a piss up in a distillery. They are great to function as a supporters club, and have pre game pissups at pubs etc...but for them to come up with "Sack the CSA" campaigns is laughable as they cannot agree on how they want their scarfs to look.
It may be a pipe dream, but I figure 2 or 3 strong MLS teams based in Canada, with a majority of the National Pool players playing in MLS (Canadian based or otherwise) would put our team on better standing when it comes to qualification for the WC and other tourneys like the Gold Cup.
- Thread starter
- #27
Did mitchell not prove he was in over his head with the under 20's at the youth world cup....
Maybe a phone call to Carl Valentine was more appropriate
johnnybluenose
Well-Known Member
Re-running more old time Caps and Canadians is not the answer to the on field woes.
The issues do run deeper than just who is the gaffer.
The issues do run deeper than just who is the gaffer.
trece verde
Well-Known Member
Where's Tony Waiters when we need him?
Dale Mitchell is a "misapplied asset." Does he know the game? Definitely. Has he shown that he can pass that knowledge on to the players he needs to win games for him and have them buy into his program? Definitely not. As has been said many times before, great players don't always make great coaches, and Dale has been a textbook example of that.
Keeping Mitchell as a coach will not help the situation. There's already a rift between him and the players who will need to be depended upon as leaders for the next qualifying campaign. Even Gerry Dobson would be able to figure out that as a result, these guys won't get the results - they won't play for him.
The only valid point that Baseless has is that we seem to have a stupidly difficult time identifying and then developing young talent to push up the ranks when it's ready to go.
Where's Bora now? Find somebody like him who's actually coached his way into the big dance to run the team.
Johnny's right (for once) - listening to the Vs is like watching a team run by a committee of soccer moms - lots of enthusiasm but no freaking clue as to what's actually going on.
Dale Mitchell is a "misapplied asset." Does he know the game? Definitely. Has he shown that he can pass that knowledge on to the players he needs to win games for him and have them buy into his program? Definitely not. As has been said many times before, great players don't always make great coaches, and Dale has been a textbook example of that.
Keeping Mitchell as a coach will not help the situation. There's already a rift between him and the players who will need to be depended upon as leaders for the next qualifying campaign. Even Gerry Dobson would be able to figure out that as a result, these guys won't get the results - they won't play for him.
The only valid point that Baseless has is that we seem to have a stupidly difficult time identifying and then developing young talent to push up the ranks when it's ready to go.
Where's Bora now? Find somebody like him who's actually coached his way into the big dance to run the team.
Johnny's right (for once) - listening to the Vs is like watching a team run by a committee of soccer moms - lots of enthusiasm but no freaking clue as to what's actually going on.
Bottom line is we need a change...the player's have tune him out and the unfortunate part is the coach pays the ultimate price. In this situation he was well over his head and I blame the CSA for hiring him. Like everyone states " the problem runs deeper and that also has to be fixed at the CSA level"
Point taken, but back to your belief that Mitchell shouldn't be fired. I understand your points, but be honest- do you think he's the right guy for the position he's in now? Most peopple with a bit of understanding of the game don't think he is, that he lacks experience and arguable the tactical acumen.
That's why I'm looking for an honest opinion from you and Jones...not regarding reaction, or what people on the other board think, but about the actual position and the man currently in it. Is he the right guy? I don't think he is. I didn't think so when he was given the job, either (to be consistent).
That's why I'm looking for an honest opinion from you and Jones...not regarding reaction, or what people on the other board think, but about the actual position and the man currently in it. Is he the right guy? I don't think he is. I didn't think so when he was given the job, either (to be consistent).
- Admin
- #33
Honestly, I think the CSA had the right guy for the position when they had Holger. Everything went severally pear-shaped when they cokced that one up (by listeneing to the players I might add).
Now the association finds itself handicapped in the worst possible way by the lack of funds. And with the economic climate in the state it is, well, they need all the pennies they can get which means no cutting loose a coach with another 3 years left on his contract (I think it's 3?).
I also happen to think there were more than a couple of cancers in the squad that just failed and would like to see what Mitchell can do this summer w/o them involved and maybe putting in a few fresh faces into the first team mix.
If there are still no results, well, the proof is in the pudding.
Mmmmm, pudding...
Now the association finds itself handicapped in the worst possible way by the lack of funds. And with the economic climate in the state it is, well, they need all the pennies they can get which means no cutting loose a coach with another 3 years left on his contract (I think it's 3?).
I also happen to think there were more than a couple of cancers in the squad that just failed and would like to see what Mitchell can do this summer w/o them involved and maybe putting in a few fresh faces into the first team mix.
If there are still no results, well, the proof is in the pudding.
Mmmmm, pudding...
You may be right about the finances, though I doubt the financial crisis will have any effect on CSA revenue streams one way or another. Different argument, though.
Sounds like you are being very PC Regs. You make some good arguments, but at no point come out and simply say they have the wrong guy in place.
May be a moot poiont, and you may be right: they may have the wrong guy, but he's here another 2 years, like it or lump it.
Sounds like you are being very PC Regs. You make some good arguments, but at no point come out and simply say they have the wrong guy in place.
May be a moot poiont, and you may be right: they may have the wrong guy, but he's here another 2 years, like it or lump it.
At the end of the day, the coach whoever he is has to face this reality in the post above.
I don't know what kind of a coach Dale Mitchell is but he has been to the World Cup as player with Tony Waiters but let's face it that side in 1986 benefitted hugely from the old NASL where players faced top players from Europe, etc including Beckenbauer, Pele etc.
It is disgusting that we can't beat Honduras as this is a very small undeveloped country. The joke in Central America is that when Christopher Columbus left for home in 1502 after claiming the territory for Spain he told the people "Don't do anything until I get back!" And they haven't.
There are leagues in Central America and Mexico which keep players closer to home where you can develop a team.
The Canadian players invited to play for our national side have to fear one thing - being gone from their European club and losing their spot! That is where they make their $$$ to eat. It is tough being this far from away from home making a living and coming back and playing a few college games in Florida as prep for a national game (or whatever they do today).
Dial 9-1-1
Active Member
Saving money is all this is about right now. I am confident that they will be or already have been enquiring about possible replacements. There's no chance they'll go through this debacle again.
If what they say is true---that they listen to the players' advice when making decisions---then Mitchell is a goner since he doesn't have any of his stars supporting him. Letting the players stay at the Holiday Inn Express is a nice start, but it isn't enough to keep them happy.
They also need a bigger and quicker back-line. Too many times they were caught flat footed and too many times they were beaten in the air. They also need a bonafide keeper who can steal a few games like Forrest did in the 2000 Gold Cup.
If what they say is true---that they listen to the players' advice when making decisions---then Mitchell is a goner since he doesn't have any of his stars supporting him. Letting the players stay at the Holiday Inn Express is a nice start, but it isn't enough to keep them happy.
They also need a bigger and quicker back-line. Too many times they were caught flat footed and too many times they were beaten in the air. They also need a bonafide keeper who can steal a few games like Forrest did in the 2000 Gold Cup.
Actually, I do know Dale quite well and have played with him, against him and for him. Arguably one of the best coaches I have ever had (I also played a short time under George Burley, Scotland's current manager, and I learn more from the game from Dale than Burley).
In saying that, I have no problem with the fact that if a coach doesn't qualify his team, than he should go.
My real issue is that most people make it out that Dale IS the reason. Dale IS NOT the reason and the reason is much more complicated. For example:
- We aren't very good at the sport at the present time (not Dale's fault)
- the National team has some good players, but not great! (not Dale's fault)
- Our best players stunk during qualifying, were outplayed by other teams best players in crappier leagues and haven't owned up to it. (not Dale's fault)
- We have no league of our own. MLS will NEVER be OUR league. (not Dale's fault)
- We have no investment in youth programs, Provincial Associations highjack and limit progressive clubs (besides the semi and pro clubs that they now bow down to) from progressing the youth game further and that is not going to change until we get a program like junior hockey and supply handful and handful of domestically grown talent. (not Dale's fault)
- The CSA is in shambles. (not Dale's fault)
You can say that Dale got his tactics wrong. Sure. I think Alex Ferguson get's his tactics wrong from time to time but to blame the whole thing on Dale is ridiculous, immature and unitelligent... or maybe just ignorant. Comments like these shows it...
He's qualified us for 2 of the last 3 World Youth Cups (the 3rd one we didn't have to) and got us within extra time of beating Spain and moving on to the semifinals. Over his head? Comments like these usually follow the "we should have hired Stephen Hart as coach". A guy who has never qualified Canada for any World Youth tournaments and never won any CONCACAF qualifying tournaments. How is he more qualified? He's now our technical director.
BINGO!
Because they see the bigger picture? Most of the coaching alum that I talk to, coach with/against, respect and listen to what they say are old pros from the NASL days or spent time over in Europe. Very few of them blame Dale. They may say he did this wrong and got that wrong but that's it.
Firing him is not the issue for me. Spending more money that we don't have on someone else like Holgier Osiek (who also didn't qualify us) will find the same issues - we have a decent player playing in Spains top league and then... Like Dale said, we're not good enough. Neither was the MNT U20's a few years back here in Canada. If we weren't hosting, we wouldn't have qualified. That has nothing to do with tactics!
I agree to a point with you Jonesy. I am still unsure though that Dale has the connections to get his pool of players into a credible league, or the CSA for that matter.
To say Dale played on the World Cup squad is great but so did Randy Sammuel and Colin Miller and at least Miller has some experience of being an assistant coach in the English Premier league and also playing for Rangers for a spell.
Mitchell never played over seas and played in one World Cup game. I think he should stay as the U-20 coach, he has been very successful at the helm, but we should look for and pay for someone with connections and the ability to move this program to the expectations we have.
To say Dale played on the World Cup squad is great but so did Randy Sammuel and Colin Miller and at least Miller has some experience of being an assistant coach in the English Premier league and also playing for Rangers for a spell.
Mitchell never played over seas and played in one World Cup game. I think he should stay as the U-20 coach, he has been very successful at the helm, but we should look for and pay for someone with connections and the ability to move this program to the expectations we have.
Is that Dale's job? Was it Yallops or Holgers? Is it Bob Bradley job (US National Team)? I don't think so. Isn't that an agents job?
That's fine. Your opinion is valid as I hope Dale does go back to the U20 job but, IMHO, it won't solve our problems and it won't really matter who we put in, the story will be the same. Fixing the other problems is more of a priority than changing a coach and paying more money that we don't have.
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