Election Night Bush vs Kerry....

[robj]

Drew well said.

What I love the most is our dollar just keeps going up and up with the cowboy. It went up .015 this morning and should reach $.85 by year end. It's all about the money.

 

[lita]

Speak for yourself Lita. Review the archives, and you'll see way more discussion on the Canadian Federal Election than you will ever read here on the Presidential race.

I count it as:

14 for whose voting on Monday (Canadian Election)
42 Election Night Bush vs Kerry (US Election)

When I said "Sad, that most of us are more engrossed by this election than our own." I wasn't necessarily referring to TTPers but more Canadians as a whole, so hell I could still be wrong. Although, that was the topic on everyone's lips today at work.

 

[suckit]

on the bright side,
at least there's gonna be 4 more years of jay leno/bush humor.
on the dark side,
at this pace, WWIII will be knocking on your front door real soon, gentlemen.

is today the start of the end? only time will tell.
god help us all.

 

[Reccos]

Smiles: I am glad that you can be so confident in your views about President Bush and his policies and how great the guy is for business, etc. and how the Democrats are all for high taxes and big gov't. Last time I looked over 1,000 Americans have died needlessly just to prove that America is tougher than Iraq and to fulfull the ego of your self-proclaimed "war President", whatever the fcuk that is. Secondly, President Bush has presided over the largest deficits in the history of the United States and just about the same record for losing jobs. He is the first President since Herbert Hoover to lose jobs during his presidency.

How a college educated person can wrap himself in God, the flag and that kind of stupidity speaks volumes about how Americans have bought the mantra of this former cocaine using, hard drinking guy who lost money for all his investors in every business but the baseball team where they wouldn't let him near the cash.

Hey, Smiles. Are you prepared to back up your President by enlisting and going over there to fight for whatever the fcuk those innocent US military personnel are fighting for?

Another question for you: Do you really think the people of Iraq are better off today with the killing and shooting that is going on in that country? When Saddam was in power, at least the people could go to the store without being killed. President Bush senior wrote in his book that he didn't invade Iraq as there was no way out of there. This is Bush's Viet Nam, but you are too young to know how that played out I guess.

Ballbaby is spot on. I'd sooner have a President with bad private morality issues than a guy with no public morals like President Bush.



sitting at home far away from the Iraq War and having to make a personal sacrifice simply to rid the world of Saddam.

 

[Reccos]

Whoops a screw up at the end. One final point... Smiles... President Clinton presided over the best economic growth ever in your country's history and this guy blew the wad in less than half his term.

Stand by for a draft which America will need to fight the rest of the battles this President might get you into now that there is no more re-election to face.

 

[lita]

................

 

[Smiles]

I find the passion by the rest of the world to be very interesting about who we pick for president. If I was not an American I would want Kerry too. The bottom line is we want someone in office representing our values our beliefs and battling for our team. If I was from any other country I would want the Puppy sht running this country too. Why not. He bends over for the UN which is am absolute joke. France, China, Russia all involved in the oil for food scandal collecting cash from Iraq. If I were them I would have voted no on the war too. Who likes getting caught in corruption? The bottom line is if Canada (#1 trade partner) or any other country has a problem with us stop trading with us. They won’t, why because they want the money. Who is really money driven? I am sure as Canadians you want leaders that will do what’s best for Canada not what’s best for the U.S. or any other country. And Yes I would fight and Die for my country like most Americans would; our love and passion is strong for this country and I understand not living here these things are hard to grasp. We are not looking for world approval in every action we take; this is why we are leaders and not followers.

Cheers,

Smiles

 

[Aves]

Unless you work in a union or work for the government or are a total loser looking for free hand outs (10 people watch one person works) (case in point Washington State biggest employer is the state, state goes to Kerry) there just is no reason to vote for the kids who lost at dodge ball in school...
Many people hate Bush for his faith in God. As many other countries turn away from God Americans keep God close and many vote on moral issues which the democrats have no platform.
...Call the middle of the U.S. dumb if that’s what makes things easier but the bottom line is hard work, Morals, and keeping God in American life is very important to us.

... I find it interesting that Canada lets the movie fake hype 911 come into the country for viewing but will not let fox news the #1 news station in the U.S. be broadcast there. Why?

I voted for Bush

Profile
Small business owner
College graduate from WWU and SFU
Belief in God
Family Man and Community helper

Let me know where I went wrong and why I need the government to do things for me that I can do for myself?

Cheers,

Smiles

Although I understand swingin' back after all the bush / american bashing, your arrogance just reinforces the point many make about "American family values."
You value God and ridicule the weak.
Many Americans don't believe in your god(at least not in the same way) and care about those not as fortunate.
Your rant reeks of a man of virtue that has contempt for his fellow man...(oh ya I think a common line is...for example,...on gays..."we hate the sin, not the sinner")
Where is the compassion in your rant?
You also seem to forget that 46,47 per cent or whatever voted democrat. So you characterize "Americans" as believing what you do, despite the evidence to the contrary.

The truth is that you live in a diverse / divided nation and your attitude further clarifies a smugness and ignorance , quite frankly , to this reality.

Sounds like you're ready to "bring the nation together," heal the divisions....oh yah and be a real community helper...don't forget about all those lazy good for nothing democrat supporters....I'm sure they'll be anxious to hear more of your measured, thoughtful, and educated perspective.

good luck

good luck

 

[Smiles]

Aves,

Must have been the Union comment. It gets the teachers all the time.

Cheers,

Smiles

 

[coach]

Very well said Drew.
My Parents for the past six years have lived in the good old USA!
The exact location is Maple Valley W.A. Twentny minutes south of the Boeing plant.
My Dad who i still think the world of, believes in Pres Bush deeply!
Everyone has a vote people, but down in the old USA , people believe he is the right man for the job.
Get over what the hell we feel about it, it is there fcuking country!


Don't get me wrong, debates are great and we should not settle for nothing,
But for Christs sake man this is USA !
How would Kerry make our life better. Seriously boys, how the hell would he.

Once again, well said Drew and cheeres to you for speaking your mind.

 

[One Dart]

The thing that I couldn't get over while watching the results come in last night was some of the exit polling that suggested that in a number of states the most important factor in deciding who to vote for was moral values. Whose moral values would those be? If you were voting for Bush it would be the moral values of the ultra conservative christian right who dominate the south. If you were voting for Kerry it would be the more socialist, many would argue, compassionate values of less conservative Americans.

My question is this: Aren't there any more important issues for Americans to take into account than the moral values of the candidate? Let's be honest here, I would bet that deep down withouth the spinning and negative campaigning that both sides engaged in, the values of George Bush and John Kerry are really not that far apart. I would then argue that a large percentage of Americans based their votes on what they perceived their candidates values to be. Now, without actually speaking one on one with the candidate, how would they know exactly what these values are? Do they flip a coin? Does Jesus, or Allah if you will, come to them in a dream? Or, as I suspect, do they actually believe the drivel that campaign advertising tells them?

Last nights result tells us that they do.

 

[SC]

The New North America

 

[Reccos]

Coach: It is their country, yes. But what the US does in starting wars and destablilizing the world as they are doing could land us in world war 3. We are quite possibly closer to a third world war than we have been since the Cuban missile crisis in Oct. 1962 when Russia backed down to the US demands to remove the missile bases from Cuba and to turn back the ships that were sailing to Cuba with the offending missiles on board. In that crisis, long before the smug Smiles was conceived, the entire free world including Canada, France Germany, Great Britain, etc. etc were all on the side of the USA against the USSR.

I didn't like what PM Brian Mulroney did for the most part but he did give some good advice to US Presidents including reminding President Reagan, that "when they say Mr. President in Europe, they don't mean you". His advice was to get up at 4 am or so and phone the President of France and get France onside. That is how international relations work.

 

[trece verde]

How best to start? "People get the governments they deserve" almost says it. Smiles, I hope you're still as happy in 4 years, and that your "moral issues," as ill-defined as they are, are still important to you then "if that's what makes things easier."

Christians have no monopoly on morality. Neither do adherents of any other religion. As a matter of fact, I strongly believe that the two worst WMD's in the world are the Bible and the Koran, because their misuse and misapplication have killed more people than any other cause. This doesn't necessarily make Christians, Moslems, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus or members of any other faiths evil either. It just means that you might have to admit that your way is not the only way.

I like to think that I'm a very moral person, who attempts to treat other people the way I would prefer to be treated. I volunteer with kids' and adult soccer, baseball, swimming, Cubs and school, but my morality has no base in a religion. I am not groundless; I just don't need a crutch to base my life on. I'm not a victim who needs to be saved from anything. I also believe in helping out people who are a bit less fortunate than I happen to be. What does that make me? It means I have a conscience and a sense of ethics, too. Those aren't tied to any religion either.

Would you really fight and die for your country? So would I, if my country was actually at risk of losing its sovereignty. Too bad your President wouldn't, as evidenced by his skipping out on his National Guard duty. Interesting that the "Puppy sht" didn't skip out like that, isn't it? Life throws you funny curve balls that way.

I may not agree with everything that Michael Moore says either, but he does ask some compelling questions. "Fake hype?" Are you really that paranoid or does he just hit too many nerves? Yes, members of the Bin Laden family were flown out of the US after all flights were supposed to be grounded. Dubya had well-grounded fears that the family of his biggest financier were in danger if they stayed in the country.

If I remember correctly, Fox News used to be broadcast on KCPQ from Tacoma here. I was never much impressed by it, either by the sensationalistic nature of the content or the editorial slant. But then again, since I'm a Canadian living in Canada, why would I want to watch an American news channel? Fox as a network on the whole has been a disappointment, swinging from sensationalistic T'n'A to religious programming at the drop of a hat; only the soccer coverage on the sports channel has been acceptable.

Coach: nice to hear that you have a good rapport with your Dad, even if he does live in a different country. The reason we are so concerned with what the American electorate does and thinks goes like this: when you are a mouse living next to an elephant, it doesn't matter what your interests, concerns or priorities are. The elephant tends to override them. And you have to really be careful of elephant shite (apologies to Tommy Douglas); it tends to fall rather indiscriminately. Having worked for a multinational Canadian company that was bought out by a multinational American company, I got to see a lot of that end of the elephant.

Would John Kerry necessarily have been better for Canadians? Maybe not. There would be a lot fewer dead Americans, however.

enough ranting for one night.....

beerz,

stew

 

[Ballbaby]

One thing I have learned is never to challenge a man's convictions unless he challenges yours. I very much respect the fact that Drew is able to come on here and give us an educated view on why he supports Bush. This is rare. That is my point. Many Americans who voted Bush could not give such an argument. They voted in the manner they did because they are scared. Drew voted for Bush, not because he is scared but because it benefits him personally. Now, before anyone takes the soapbox route, most of us vote in the same manner as well. Don't deny this. It is fact. When it comes right down to it, it's every man for himself. What we rely on is that most of us share the same views on morality and humanism while we search for the perfect system to lead us.

 

[Regs]

The exact location is Maple Valley W.A. Twentny minutes south of the Boeing plant.

Maple fcuking Valley? Are you fcuking kidding me? Yeehaw!!! Break out the chew boys we're goin' huntin' and 4x4in!

I swear there is no more redneck place in the whole state of Washington than Maple Valley... I don't know exactly why it's relevant Coach, but for whatever reason you posted that, it wasn't a very good one!



As for Drew, maybe someone should remind him that he is a guest in our country and ask how he feels about coming up here and talking away our goalkeeping jobs?

~Regs.

 

[coach]

My point Regs is how was Kerry going to change yours or my life if he would have won?
According to alot of B.C reporters, Bush wininng is better for buisness and keeping our boarders open. The cattle industry and Lumber people have stated this themselves.
That would be my point Regs.
Secondly, alot of people still believe in Bush and for gods sake and it's there fricken country?

Rednecks eh? Okay Regs.

 

[the manager]

there is some interesting discussion circulating in this thread and I thought would add my two cents as the conversation of politics mixed with religion has led to stereotyping by all who are trying to wrap their minds around what is happening in the world today. As a Christian I have to say that I can't support bush and his agenda of legislating carefully chosen "values" through govenment. why? Because the purpose of American democracy which dangerously veils itself with Christianity has an agenda of it's own that represent more the American Dream than the purposes of God. something doesn;t jive there when we look under the hood. Don't get me wrong, I value life to a point where I could not bear to end one...I value the importance and value that a marriage between a man and a woman brings...etc. However, I think that legislating this type of morality is starkley different from the approach that the one I follow presented. for me it's a question of purpose and not a group of select values that can be legislated. we can know the character of one not by what they say about themselves or of how they position themselves against issues, but by actions.

I came across an article online that adds to the point i'm trying to make...

Published on Monday, October 25, 2004 by CommonDreams.org

No Longer a Christian

by Karen Horst Cobb



I was told in Sunday school the word "Christian" means to be Christ-like, but the message I hear daily on the airwaves from the “christian ” media are words of war, violence, and aggression. Throughout this article I will spell christian with a small c rather than a capital, since the term (as I usually hear it thrown about) does not refer to the teachings of the one I know as the Christ. I hear church goers call in to radio programs and explain that it was a mistake not to kill every living thing in Fallujah. They quote chapter and verse from the old testament about smiting the enemies of Israel. The fear of fighting the terrorists on our soil rather than across the globe causes the voices to be raised as they justify the latest prison scandal or other accounts of the horrors of war . The words they speak are words of destruction, aggression, dominance, revenge, fear and arrogance. The host and the callers echo the belief in the righteousness of our nation's killing. There are reminders to pray for our “christian” president who is doing the work of the Lord: Right to Life, Second Amendmendment, sanctity of marriage, welfare reform, war, kill, evil liberals. . . so much to fight, so much to destroy.

Let me tell you about the Christ I know. He was conceived by an unmarried woman. He was not born into a family of privilege. He was a radical. He said, “It was said an eye for and eye and a tooth of a tooth, but now I say love your enemies and bless those who curse you.” He said, “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are those who mourn for they shall be comforted. Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the children of God.” (Mattew 5: 3-9) He said, “All those who are called by my name will enter the kingdom of heaven." He said, "People will know true believers if they have the fruit of the spirit--love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, self control.“

He knew he would be led like a sheep to the slaughter. He responded with “Father forgive them.“ He explained that in Christ there is neither Jew nor gentile, slave or free male nor female. He explained that even to be angry is akin to murder. He said the temple of God is not a building, but is in the hearts of those are called by his name. He was called "the Prince of Peace." His final days were spent in prayer, so that he could endure what was set before him, not on how he could overpower the evil government of that day. When they came for him he was led away and didn’t resist his death sentence.

This is a stark contrast to the call of the religious christian right, who vote for war and weapons, and suggest towns and villages be leveled to bring freedom and peace to the people. They proudly boast this country’s superiority, suggesting God has blessed our nation. Today, as I listened to a popular christian news network, I was reminded that in the last days, even God’s elect will be deceived, (II Timothy 3:13). When the religious media moguls preaching prosperity spout their rhetoric, I am reminded of the difficulty Jesus described of a rich man’s ability to enter the kingdom of God. (Matthew 19: 24) (http://www.4religious-right.info/rr_economics.htm) Some who believe they are fighting evil will cry to the Lord, and he will say “I never knew you.“ (Matthew 22). They will have a form or godliness but will deny the power (II Timothy 3:5) to move mountains through prayer. (Matthew 17:20). Jesus explained that he has not given us a spirit of fear, but a spirit of power, love, and a sound mind. (II Timothy 1:17) I wonder if the innocent moms and dads, brothers and sisters, and aunts and uncles, and grandmas and grandpas who were the victims of US military weapons (the never reported collateral damages we are protected from in the “liberal” nightly news) felt the love of Jesus with the shock and awe. I wonder if the surviving family members now understand His radical love and that they no longer have any need for weapons or defense.

The solutions to the social issues used to manipulate good, decent people have no resemblance to how Jesus responded to the social concerns of his time. He never once mentioned the “right to life” the year he was born King Herod ordered the execution of all babies. (Matthew 2:16). He knew that passing laws does not change the heart. As a follower of his teaching I believe in the right to life, including the children in Iraq who stumble onto land mines, cross the street at the wrong time, or who are snuggly tucked within the warm bellies of their wounded or grieving mothers as US fighter jets fly overhead. These are living, breathing children. The killing of these little ones are never even reported, and our tax dollars pay for these bombs. I believe in the right to life for those in the United States who are unwanted and impoversihed. I believe in the right to life of the naive kid who was promised by the recruiter they could choose a desk job and still get their education paid or could see the world or could accelerate their life or could play a very realistic video game from a ****pit.

I've worked at a shelter, and I know first hand the reality of unwanted children. I know the reality of this right wing rhetoric when week after week I begged and pleaded with people to give up only one night every three months to sit with these unwanted living children for a few hours while the overworked house parents had a night off. Of the few I found, many changed their minds when they discovered that they would need to wear rubber gloves to change the babies diapers. These “believers” stand on the street corners holding right to life signs and then vote against medical assistance for the mothers and their unwanted children creating an impossible existence for them. The few of these abortion activists who might adopt some of these unwanted children generally want the white and the healthy. The ones with hydrocephalous, tracheotomies, emotional/ mental problems and communicable diseases along with their life long medical expenses can be someone else’s problems.

I cringe as many christians vote for policies that deny help to the poor in our own county, who vote to support the war and military strength, assuring the latest weapons are developed and that the heavens will be dominated by the military of the United States. We develop electromagnetic weapons to shatter skulls , split the earth (http://www.raven1.net/emr13.htm) and silently destroy a body as a thief in the night. Studies are even now searching for the frequencies to override the freewill. These unbelievable technologies are a reality and DNA specific weapons can or soon will target a specific nationality (http://www.arabicnews.com/ansub/Daily/Day/981116/1998111619.html ).I weep as the waters Jesus walked on become contaminated with uranium. (http://www.greendove.net/resources3.htm) I grieve as the missiles fly through the atmosphere on the continent where Jesus rose into the sky, defying death and the grave and where the Holy Sprit first descended. I cry out at the horrors of war and the indignity of the prisons so close to where He took captivity captive. So I am no longer a christian if Christianity has become what is presented to us by our christian president and christian media. Icannot support the right of the United States and Israel to develop and use the most heinous weapons ever imagined. I want no part of a temple built on the blood of the innocent. The sheep have been lead astray by the teachings of prosperity and misinterpretation of the final battle between good and evil. Many no longer can recognize the voice of the good Shepard.

Some “good christians” even work at weapons facilities. It is not a stretch to say that a woman who tightens a last rivet on a shiny new missile just off the assembly line might be the same woman who licks the gold star on the attendance chart in morning Sunday school. The missile could be launched by the kid in the youth group who reads the invocation and it will find it’s destiny at a “target of interest” which might or might not have been a result of good intelligence. The collection plate circulates children are taught to love their enemies and bless those who curse them.

The statements and lifestyle of Jesus are difficult for me to understand. What would he say to evil dictators? This God would not justify 15,000 or more deaths. Even the wrathful jealous God of the old testament spared whole cities for a few righteous souls. For christians, to support mass killings as a way to prevent future deaths is not at all like Christ. He would not say,"When I am talking about war I am really talking about peace," like the self professed christian President proudly states. Who but God has the right to determine what price a people should pay for their freedom? The religious leaders on the airwaves today respond to the voices of the few brave peacemakers who dare to speak out. They say that pacifism is insane, and that it doesn’t make sense, but what is forgotten is that logic and faith are separate entities. I believe in the example of Jesus and his admonition to love your enemies and bless those who curse you . Do I understand how this works on the global scale? Do I know what Jesus would say to all the world’s leaders? No, nor do I totally understand how the example of Christ’s life and his message of love works in the world today. That’s why I need faith. Am I always correct in my assessments and actions? No, that’s why I need grace. Am I brave and unafraid? No, that’s why I need the perfect love that casts out fear. Some put trust in Chariots and some in horses but I will remember the name of the lord our God--the Prince of Peace. Perhaps politics has no place for imitators of Christ.

Who will show the face of Christ to the world? Who will speak His radical message? I hear from these so called imitators of Christ that the pacifists are a collection of kids, hippies, socialists and communists who haven’t got a clue. Some of us, however, have come to our beliefs as a result of careful and prayerful study of the scriptures and admonishment from our elders. Many are Mennonite, Amish, Quaker and other Anabaptists, whose ancestors did not resist their torturers and were drowned, burnt at the stake and flogged for their pacifist stand. They truly followed the example of Christ, and their resistance against the catastrophic effects of the merging of church and state cost them a great price. Churches today have signed onto the government plan and have agreed to look the other way in exchange for tax free privileges. The true message of Christ still exists to some degree in the quiet of the land to peacemakers, but sadly these good people have been deceived by the angry words from a righteous sounding religious media majority broadcasting in cars and trucks and tractors all over our land ironically preaching the “good news of war for peace“ and convincing 24-7 “liberal“ bashing. I suspect there are many who share my sorrow at the loss of what it means to be Christ-like, but our voice is seldom heard. The blaring rhetoric drowns out the still small voice of the mighty God. Peace used be the opposite of war, Conservative used to mean the tendency to conserve resources. Liberal used to mean kind and generous, and Christian used to mean like Christ.

So I am no longer a christian but just a person who continues trying to follow the example of Christ. I’ll let him call me what he wants when I see him face to face. Until then, I will pray that someday people like me will be able to reclaim the meaning of Christ’s identity, and the world will see the effects of the radical message of Christ‘s love--the perfect love that casts out fear.

Karen Cobb is a freelance writer and artist in Santa Fe, NM

 

[Regs]

My point Regs is how was Kerry going to change yours or my life if he would have won?
According to alot of B.C reporters, Bush wininng is better for buisness and keeping our boarders open. The cattle industry and Lumber people have stated this themselves.

There is more to life than 'business' interests, Coach. You need to look at the bigger picture in my opinion. Kerry is on record as saying he would have improved international relationships, a key step in bringing some stability back into the world. It's pretty apparent that the Bush administration does not care.

Let me ask you this: If and when another large-scale terrorist attack occurs on US soil, what will the international reaction be? An out-pouring of sympathy? Probably not, at least not like seen after 9/11. And what will happen to the economy then? In the fcuking tank, both domestically and abroad! How good will that be then for BC & Canadian business?!?!

Yes, it's their country as you point out but as the only remaining world "super-power", their agendas and policies greatly affect the rest of the world... the scary thing about all of this now is that the declared "war on terrorism" is never going to end and in 4 years time, the American public is going to be fed the same "you're safer now" bullshite and end up electing Dick Cheney as their next president

But at least they'll be eating good-old Canadian beef!

~Regs.

 

[BJB]

Couple more of my somewhat points:

International Relations: Bush never left the US before becoming President of the US. The fckuer never even came up to visit Canada in his first 4 years of office..... have more but dont' know how to put it.

one more thing... my big concern with bush is... like many others... fckuer starts another war somewhere, those maniacs end up sending missles for a visit, and one day there GPS isn't working well and instead of hitting seattle they hit vancouver... He wants to start another war, make sure he has the Big countries as his alliance. and not just one, i'm talking majority of em.

The american's will be doing the saying Fool me Once.... sucka's.

When's the next election??? I can't wait to start debating Gordon's views!!!