- Thread starter
- #21
His name is on the sheet like you didnt know that..
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FVSL New Divisional Alignment
- Thread starter ghouse
- Start date
His name is on the sheet like you didnt know that..
- Thread starter
- #22
It will never be any different.
Some teams wont want to travel no matter how detailed you work things out.
Done properly?
You dont need a business plan to play soccer.
You all act like its Rocket science.
Just cause the PCSL has been around for years doesnt mean the league is got a secret formula to run it..Its been around because its easy to run.
Every sport is doing it and most of soccer is doing it already....
What plan do you need to lace your boots up?
I dont have a plan to play the 15 games I play each year vs the VMSL.
I dont have a plan on the 5/6 tournaments we enter in each year.
I didnt have a plan for the Provincials last year and we went to 2 different Provincials.
If the guys running the teams need detailed plans than they should step down and let someone run the team that knows how to drive a Van.
johnnybluenose
Well-Known Member
It isn't easy to run, remember all the times we have spken about money and time it takes to run just our own teams, now imagine that you have multiple teams... with fees they pay that YOU have to be accountable for...
You DO need a business plan, with no red ink, otherwise it's destined to fail.
You DO need a plan that makes it a worthwhile endeavor to those who already think they are playing in the best league (read VMSL)
By properly I mean inform the stakeholders and let them decide whether or not the idea will fly, or if more details are needed.
I am also a proponent of the BCPL, but like Dude i see that more info needs to be passed around, and in my humblest of opinions I don't see the point of creating this league unless BCSA and the leagues FORCE the qualified teams to play in it... otherwise why bother having it if the VMSL Prem is still going to be stronger than it... which will be the case unless all their players defect over, which is unlikely to happen
You DO need a business plan, with no red ink, otherwise it's destined to fail.
You DO need a plan that makes it a worthwhile endeavor to those who already think they are playing in the best league (read VMSL)
By properly I mean inform the stakeholders and let them decide whether or not the idea will fly, or if more details are needed.
I am also a proponent of the BCPL, but like Dude i see that more info needs to be passed around, and in my humblest of opinions I don't see the point of creating this league unless BCSA and the leagues FORCE the qualified teams to play in it... otherwise why bother having it if the VMSL Prem is still going to be stronger than it... which will be the case unless all their players defect over, which is unlikely to happen
johnnybluenose
Well-Known Member
No it's not. That is just it...
And yes you can. With all due respect Rich, and you know I respect you, but we'll agree to disagree here, and it's got not to do with teh FVSL, which has been 100% transparent and above board with everything so far on this issue unlike the VMSL...
Right now the BCSA and CSA forces players to only play in one team, for one club, they could easily say you have to play in the BCPL if you qualify... or fold...
The League reserves the right at any time to kick a team out, or bring a new team in... It's a club. The Canadian Charter of Freedoms etc doesn't say that anyone has the "right" to even play soccer, nevermind to dictate the terms of engagement to their hosts... the ones that take out the insurance, make the teams sign waivers etc...
You can't figure out why the VMSL teams don't want this, they can't figure out why you are so gung ho...
it's a classic case of misunderstandings
back to how easy it is to figure out...
teams will have guys that are married, some with kids, three or four weekends away have to be planned for... EXCUSE.
the costs associated will go up, as you thoroughly outlined...EXCUSE.
You're missing the point.
it's not 100% easy, and now even I can figure out the members of the VMSL don't want in almost out of principle... they weren't informed and now they will hit Azzi's legacy with a bat until he makes them feel part of the process, guys having to make arrangements to get an extra shift at work or a sitter for the kids isn't a big deal, being bigtimed by the league prez is.
Say those teams are very into your business plan, and it makes sense and they can get over all of their hurt little feelings about not being part of the process (their fault or azzi's fault or otherwise, whatever) You can't just now say, okay we are a go. You need media, sponsorship, and these things have just been talked about, we have never been told or shown what is the reality... and those don't come easy.
And yes you can. With all due respect Rich, and you know I respect you, but we'll agree to disagree here, and it's got not to do with teh FVSL, which has been 100% transparent and above board with everything so far on this issue unlike the VMSL...
Right now the BCSA and CSA forces players to only play in one team, for one club, they could easily say you have to play in the BCPL if you qualify... or fold...
The League reserves the right at any time to kick a team out, or bring a new team in... It's a club. The Canadian Charter of Freedoms etc doesn't say that anyone has the "right" to even play soccer, nevermind to dictate the terms of engagement to their hosts... the ones that take out the insurance, make the teams sign waivers etc...
You can't figure out why the VMSL teams don't want this, they can't figure out why you are so gung ho...
it's a classic case of misunderstandings
back to how easy it is to figure out...
teams will have guys that are married, some with kids, three or four weekends away have to be planned for... EXCUSE.
the costs associated will go up, as you thoroughly outlined...EXCUSE.
You're missing the point.
it's not 100% easy, and now even I can figure out the members of the VMSL don't want in almost out of principle... they weren't informed and now they will hit Azzi's legacy with a bat until he makes them feel part of the process, guys having to make arrangements to get an extra shift at work or a sitter for the kids isn't a big deal, being bigtimed by the league prez is.
Say those teams are very into your business plan, and it makes sense and they can get over all of their hurt little feelings about not being part of the process (their fault or azzi's fault or otherwise, whatever) You can't just now say, okay we are a go. You need media, sponsorship, and these things have just been talked about, we have never been told or shown what is the reality... and those don't come easy.
- Thread starter
- #26
Well i never new the BCSA could throw you out for not takeing promotion but if what you say is true then i believe you.
I do see the misunderstandings the VMSL has.
That is why I have posted and chatted so much. It should have been Azzi and not me.
I do understand why they are all so pissed and again because I was in the know i did my best to share info. Its just hard to share info in TTP because most members would rather take a piss than be serious so it makes it all the harder.
And I really do agree if anyone had forced any thing like this on me with out proper info I would have been pissed too.
I am not angry with any of the teams for not moveing forward because of not knowing or for not feeling like being pushed into this. I am angry with how the best league handled thier business.
Why...because we just may lose a chance at something very special at a time when we could be moveing into our spotlight.
As the Caps go MLS soccer will be in the forfront. It will be a time that will only come once. A time that if we miss the wave of media, we may never get a second chance for growth at a speed which normally could take a lifetime.
Because of the Best leagues organization and the way things were handled soccer may stay for a while longer at the bottom of the evolutionary table.
Not because everyone doesnt think its a bad Idea but because of how it was handled and forced on them.
So thats why I try so hard and why I am so passionate. To just try and help everyone understand...Get over how it all started and move forward.
And JBN you will get no media unless you pay for it or its a little blurb that could be missed if your not wearing your glasses and you will never get a substantial sponcor, until you start the league first.
I do see the misunderstandings the VMSL has.
That is why I have posted and chatted so much. It should have been Azzi and not me.
I do understand why they are all so pissed and again because I was in the know i did my best to share info. Its just hard to share info in TTP because most members would rather take a piss than be serious so it makes it all the harder.
And I really do agree if anyone had forced any thing like this on me with out proper info I would have been pissed too.
I am not angry with any of the teams for not moveing forward because of not knowing or for not feeling like being pushed into this. I am angry with how the best league handled thier business.
Why...because we just may lose a chance at something very special at a time when we could be moveing into our spotlight.
As the Caps go MLS soccer will be in the forfront. It will be a time that will only come once. A time that if we miss the wave of media, we may never get a second chance for growth at a speed which normally could take a lifetime.
Because of the Best leagues organization and the way things were handled soccer may stay for a while longer at the bottom of the evolutionary table.
Not because everyone doesnt think its a bad Idea but because of how it was handled and forced on them.
So thats why I try so hard and why I am so passionate. To just try and help everyone understand...Get over how it all started and move forward.
And JBN you will get no media unless you pay for it or its a little blurb that could be missed if your not wearing your glasses and you will never get a substantial sponcor, until you start the league first.
housearrest
Well-Known Member
this hurts my head just reading all of this. Good luck to you Ghouse
- Admin
- #28
Ghouse,
You didn't just continue to post info you knew, you insulted those who were left in the dark - even though I and others were trying to tell you the concerns.
You called them nobodies that couldn't make the cut, you said they weren't the leaders of their teams/clubs.
You told everyone here that you had personally talked to all the teams and all of them were a go.
After awhile of you posting the same thing over and over and over, people started to just TTP you because you just weren't listening.
Obviously you have connections to this league executive. Did you ever bring up with them the concerns that you were hearing/reading? Reedie brought them out in the open right here on TTP in August and it swelled up again before Christmas.
RobJ said it best on the BCPL thread:
You didn't just continue to post info you knew, you insulted those who were left in the dark - even though I and others were trying to tell you the concerns.
You called them nobodies that couldn't make the cut, you said they weren't the leaders of their teams/clubs.
You told everyone here that you had personally talked to all the teams and all of them were a go.
After awhile of you posting the same thing over and over and over, people started to just TTP you because you just weren't listening.
Obviously you have connections to this league executive. Did you ever bring up with them the concerns that you were hearing/reading? Reedie brought them out in the open right here on TTP in August and it swelled up again before Christmas.
RobJ said it best on the BCPL thread:
johnnybluenose
Well-Known Member
Ok, the BCPL Thread is somewhere else, this thread is supposed to be a place to discuss any potential new alignment ideas or how the planned alignment, bracing for a bcpl, will happen for the upcoming year(s)...
We all know the idea behind the BCPL, and if not there is a thread dedicated to it, let's leave that talk over there and discuss the impact on the FVSL here.
Sweet.
Any input back on my idea to simply form a pure rec division? Is it a good idea or bad idea?
We all know the idea behind the BCPL, and if not there is a thread dedicated to it, let's leave that talk over there and discuss the impact on the FVSL here.
Sweet.
Any input back on my idea to simply form a pure rec division? Is it a good idea or bad idea?
johnnybluenose
Well-Known Member
I mean streamlining the divisions, like your original post, but creating a lower purely rec division in order to get to the streamlined setup.
italian_stallion21
Well-Known Member
I like it JBN, but you would need to bring that up at the AGM, which no one seems to do.
johnnybluenose
Well-Known Member
So let's assume for now (Since the crap on the other thread states nobody of note from the VMSL is going to participate...) that the BCPL doesn't happen.
The rules are the rules... therefore next season you would have:
14 teams in Premier. (10 existing, 1 drops, 4 new from D1)
17 in Div 1 (18-4 up = 14 -3 releated = 11, add 6 new teams from D2 = 17)
23 in D2 (10 + 10 + 9 = 29, 6 go up = 23 + 6 come in from D3 = 29 minus 6 going to D3 = 23)
29 in D3 ( 29 currently, 6 go up to D2, 6 come down, stays a wash)
Masters - 16 teams (3 of which hardly even competed with 1 win-less and two with 1 win)
U-21 - 9 teams
That is a shocking weird looking alignment...
here's my proposal for an alignment for 2010/11 season, assuming no teams fold or new ones apply...and streamline the league.
Leave Premier at 10 teams, D1 winner goes up (probably WFC Prospects, LUFC Athletics or SFC Rangers)
Cull Div 1 down. Instead of relegating the bottom 3 to Div 2, just leave D1 as the newly relegated Prem team and teams finishing 2-10 for a total of 10 teams.
Then you have teams 11-15 joined up with the D2 pool winners plus 2 additional teams... Div 2B is the relegated 3 teams from D1 and then 7 top teams from 2A-2C...
anyways... so it goes.. here's what it might look like:
Premier: ACBC, Poco, Pomo, LUFC, PAU, Abby, GEU, Aldy, Chili, Caps Prospects
Div 1: ND Lions, LU Athletics, SFC Rangers, PoMo Gunners, TeeDub, Highlanders, LU Dynamo, NDFC, SFC Strikers, Poco Rev/Sentinel
Div 2A: Poco Rev/Sentinel, PAU, Razerbacks, PA Selects, Stolo, Pomo Gunners, GEU Inter, Guildford Utd, ACBC, Red Devils.
Div 2B: Poco Royals, DFC Celtic, LUFC Nomads, Young Guns, WRU, Abby Arsenal, Aldergrove utd, Surrey Coyotes, Whalley Utd, LUFC Athletica/DU Rangers
Div 2C: 19 Teams: Coq MF Titans, GEU Pumas, Bullets, Sikh Utd, Athletica/DU Rangers, Bradner, Poco Pacific, Cloverdale FC, Abby Utd SC, BC United, Mission Athletic, SFC Peg Impact, ND Titans, SFC Caps, Balkan Wolves, Pomo Magpies, GEU Phoenix, Vault FC, LUFC Clones.
Masters: 16 teams
REC: The last 3 teams currently in Master with the rest of the D3 teams form two geographically agreeable zones/pools and play a schedule. Rec, meaning no Promo or relegation, yet players signed here can be called up to teams in the competitive divisions (IE player signed to SFC Chaos could go play for SFC Strikers)
Now obviously the teams in or out of this rec division could be changed or tweaked, and maybe even have a promo/relegation inside the Rec division, but really this is where the teams like Guildford FC and Sundowners (not to pick on you guys specifically) should play. They have no shot at promotion out of D3 and aren't good enough to play Masters ball.
As far as promo relegation... 1 team up and 1 team down.
Prem to D1, D1 to 2A, 2A to 2b, 2b to 2c, and maybe you have a 3 for new teams or teams that don't want to play Rec...
For Cup play: The Pak Cup is Premier and Div 1, and the Div 2A teams can apply to play in it if they choose, The Knights/Presidents cup is competed for by all the Div 2 teams, D3 (if one exists) and any teams from the Rec that apply.
Whichever...
The goal here should be to streamline the upper end of the league to two pools of 10 teams based on a round home/away schedule for 18 weeks plus cup... then a 3 tiered div 2 setup on B forms with a lot of parity and the need for consistency for a home for players not good enough to play at the highest levels, guys that cannot commit to A form teams for work/family/training purposes etc...
All this will do is encourage better cleaner and highly competitive play. This is the total opposite of watering down any of the divisions. we are seeing some teams in Division 2 winning by a touchdown or more... there are teams in all 3 of the Div 2 pools that will not get relegated, but wouldn't be good enough to get promoted out of D3 if they were there, IE Bradner Redshirts (again not to pick on anyone in particular)wouldn't be able to overcome most of the top 5 teams in 3b, and would probably struggle to beat the top 2 teams in the other Div 3 groups...
Just a quick look at it, on a slow day at the office after a nice gentleman at one of my customers bailed on our beers appointment this afternoon.
*edited for spelling errors...
The rules are the rules... therefore next season you would have:
14 teams in Premier. (10 existing, 1 drops, 4 new from D1)
17 in Div 1 (18-4 up = 14 -3 releated = 11, add 6 new teams from D2 = 17)
23 in D2 (10 + 10 + 9 = 29, 6 go up = 23 + 6 come in from D3 = 29 minus 6 going to D3 = 23)
29 in D3 ( 29 currently, 6 go up to D2, 6 come down, stays a wash)
Masters - 16 teams (3 of which hardly even competed with 1 win-less and two with 1 win)
U-21 - 9 teams
That is a shocking weird looking alignment...
here's my proposal for an alignment for 2010/11 season, assuming no teams fold or new ones apply...and streamline the league.
Leave Premier at 10 teams, D1 winner goes up (probably WFC Prospects, LUFC Athletics or SFC Rangers)
Cull Div 1 down. Instead of relegating the bottom 3 to Div 2, just leave D1 as the newly relegated Prem team and teams finishing 2-10 for a total of 10 teams.
Then you have teams 11-15 joined up with the D2 pool winners plus 2 additional teams... Div 2B is the relegated 3 teams from D1 and then 7 top teams from 2A-2C...
anyways... so it goes.. here's what it might look like:
Premier: ACBC, Poco, Pomo, LUFC, PAU, Abby, GEU, Aldy, Chili, Caps Prospects
Div 1: ND Lions, LU Athletics, SFC Rangers, PoMo Gunners, TeeDub, Highlanders, LU Dynamo, NDFC, SFC Strikers, Poco Rev/Sentinel
Div 2A: Poco Rev/Sentinel, PAU, Razerbacks, PA Selects, Stolo, Pomo Gunners, GEU Inter, Guildford Utd, ACBC, Red Devils.
Div 2B: Poco Royals, DFC Celtic, LUFC Nomads, Young Guns, WRU, Abby Arsenal, Aldergrove utd, Surrey Coyotes, Whalley Utd, LUFC Athletica/DU Rangers
Div 2C: 19 Teams: Coq MF Titans, GEU Pumas, Bullets, Sikh Utd, Athletica/DU Rangers, Bradner, Poco Pacific, Cloverdale FC, Abby Utd SC, BC United, Mission Athletic, SFC Peg Impact, ND Titans, SFC Caps, Balkan Wolves, Pomo Magpies, GEU Phoenix, Vault FC, LUFC Clones.
Masters: 16 teams
REC: The last 3 teams currently in Master with the rest of the D3 teams form two geographically agreeable zones/pools and play a schedule. Rec, meaning no Promo or relegation, yet players signed here can be called up to teams in the competitive divisions (IE player signed to SFC Chaos could go play for SFC Strikers)
Now obviously the teams in or out of this rec division could be changed or tweaked, and maybe even have a promo/relegation inside the Rec division, but really this is where the teams like Guildford FC and Sundowners (not to pick on you guys specifically) should play. They have no shot at promotion out of D3 and aren't good enough to play Masters ball.
As far as promo relegation... 1 team up and 1 team down.
Prem to D1, D1 to 2A, 2A to 2b, 2b to 2c, and maybe you have a 3 for new teams or teams that don't want to play Rec...
For Cup play: The Pak Cup is Premier and Div 1, and the Div 2A teams can apply to play in it if they choose, The Knights/Presidents cup is competed for by all the Div 2 teams, D3 (if one exists) and any teams from the Rec that apply.
Whichever...
The goal here should be to streamline the upper end of the league to two pools of 10 teams based on a round home/away schedule for 18 weeks plus cup... then a 3 tiered div 2 setup on B forms with a lot of parity and the need for consistency for a home for players not good enough to play at the highest levels, guys that cannot commit to A form teams for work/family/training purposes etc...
All this will do is encourage better cleaner and highly competitive play. This is the total opposite of watering down any of the divisions. we are seeing some teams in Division 2 winning by a touchdown or more... there are teams in all 3 of the Div 2 pools that will not get relegated, but wouldn't be good enough to get promoted out of D3 if they were there, IE Bradner Redshirts (again not to pick on anyone in particular)wouldn't be able to overcome most of the top 5 teams in 3b, and would probably struggle to beat the top 2 teams in the other Div 3 groups...
Just a quick look at it, on a slow day at the office after a nice gentleman at one of my customers bailed on our beers appointment this afternoon.
*edited for spelling errors...
italian_stallion21
Well-Known Member
Now send that in an e-mail for discussion with the FVSL board and see what you get back.
johnnybluenose
Well-Known Member
I'm not going to stir up a hornets nest now, not with all this impending doom with the fallout of the BCPL fiasco.
I will pass it along to my club hierarchy, as they are the ones that represent our club officially, not me. They can do with it what they please come AGM time...
It's just a thought, but anything is better than what we have currently.
Half of the Prem teams are on cruise control and don't appear to "work" with their club... Half of the D1 teams could be topped by some of the D2 teams, and there are some mighty bad D2 teams that would be beat by decent D3 teams...
If I put my Nomads hat on I would say I'd rather play in a division of consistency than one where we play a team like Westcoast then Guildford the next week... I'd much rather the teams be closer in quality in each grouping, and that can only be achieved by smaller divisions.
We all called it at the beginning of they year when Sentinel, Stolo, and Coyotes were "write-in's" to Div 1. Sentinel is the only team that has appeared to acquit themselves at all..
I will pass it along to my club hierarchy, as they are the ones that represent our club officially, not me. They can do with it what they please come AGM time...
It's just a thought, but anything is better than what we have currently.
Half of the Prem teams are on cruise control and don't appear to "work" with their club... Half of the D1 teams could be topped by some of the D2 teams, and there are some mighty bad D2 teams that would be beat by decent D3 teams...
If I put my Nomads hat on I would say I'd rather play in a division of consistency than one where we play a team like Westcoast then Guildford the next week... I'd much rather the teams be closer in quality in each grouping, and that can only be achieved by smaller divisions.
We all called it at the beginning of they year when Sentinel, Stolo, and Coyotes were "write-in's" to Div 1. Sentinel is the only team that has appeared to acquit themselves at all..
Rich I agree all you say but. The way I look at it this is the time for Thomas to aline the Valley League. To me ABC is just waste of work. Div one should have 16 teams Div two 16 teams div three 16 teams and div four sixteen teams. Div five should be where U21 sides come in. This would make it a hard league and younger kids would push older sides to do better. t would also aline the league to the rest of the world. In each group two sides move up or down. Forget the two or three first place teams having a playoff to see who moves up. Team can have a shity weekend and the hole year depended on that. It is much better to make it smple. more good sides will come over for that reason.
16 teams, we better get more then 15 games if all other leagues are getting 18. My suggestion is after each team has played everyone once(15 games) the top 4 are seperated and play each other again in the final 3 games to decide 1st-4th, points carrying over of course. continue this down with 5-8, 9-12 etc. This way the end of the season is very competitve to decide placement abd everyone gets good final compeition, even the bottom feeders. Obviously you can't finish above your grouping despite points, as you will be playing lesser competition in the final 3 games.
Team Canada
Member
Maybe I'm alone here, but I actually don't mind the way things are aligned now. Speaking from a Div 2 perspective, it's kind of nice to not have to go out to Chilliwack or somewhere way out in the valley from Delta for a friday night game. However, having to travel every once in a while was a nice change of pace, and playing basically the same 9 teams year after year can get old.
If there were to be a re-alignment, I do like something along the lines of what jbn suggested though. I just don't know if I'm just not a fan of the whole rec division idea.
If there were to be a re-alignment, I do like something along the lines of what jbn suggested though. I just don't know if I'm just not a fan of the whole rec division idea.
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