Liberal / NDP Coalition Government

[Dude]

I've been in meetings all morning, now glued to the radio to try and catch up.

I've been thinking about this. What I've heard on talk shows, and in speaking w/ friends...

Concervative votes deffinitely seem accross the board NOT in favor of coalition. Same w/ NDP. But w/ Liberal true voters there seems to be a very mixed bag, and quite a bit more of a "wait and see" approach. That's why I think that- if we go back to the polls w/ one less party, and a new "Coalition" party in place of the Libs / NDP, you'll see a lot of those votes swing to the concervative side.

More and more I'm liking the idea of Harper stepping down in favor of Peter McKay taking over leadership. JBN may be right...this may indeed be a brilliant end run set-up for McKay and a strong Majority.

 

[The_Reverend]

Rev

Where I come from, we call pre-med 1st year science, and its something you use at the bar to impress the chicks. It means nothing....much like pre-law

I have to agree with Kurgan on this one. I can see you think taking 5 years to write a book that noone will read is comparable to a 5 year residency program, but you havent a fcuking clue.

fyi, i wasn't talking about residency programs - those are different. that is the doctor equivalent of journeyman specialization. med school finishes before residencies start. and i understand how difficult residencies are. my buddy sometimes works 36 hours straight. no way i ever do than in the lab (though I have hit 20hrs). and no way i ever do it as often. however he chose a med school that minimizes pbl learning based on some of it's inherent weaknesses, weaknesses that my (albeit limited) experiences concur with.

also, i never TA'd/taught first year science - only 3rd and 4th year courses, and the students I'm calling pre-med were all ready applying to med schools and writing mcats, etc.

that, though, is only one aspect of the watering down of higher education. I can rant about the whole subject for quite some time. but it essentially boils down to that many (if not most) students (undergrad and some grad) feel entitled to earning their degrees simply because they have been paying for them. not because they are qualified based on examination of the skills and knowledge that they have been taught. and I see this on a number of levels throughout society, with more and more people, especially young people, feeling that the world owes them something. Not sure what, not sure why. and i include my own generation in that to some extent, though to a smaller percentage, or more of us have grown out of it. and the main casualty in all of this is that people are losing the ability to think critically. i only used the pbl training of doctors as a particular pet peeve.

 

[The_Reverend]

Giving Money to people to better your country is not a bailout, it is prudent planning, but it is a red herring. They won't take it if it is offered to them.

Do you honestly think a guy that has worked a cushy Union Blessed job pushing the button at a sheetmetal stamp for Ford Motor Company in Windsor ON is interested in uprooting his family to go work for Suncor at the new Foothills project ramping to go to construction next year!? Hell No, he can collect EI and be done with it, or get a nice buyout cheque from FoMoCo and work as Walmart as a greeter.

In general the manufacturing sector is not hurting Canada wide, it is hurting in Central Canada where the CAW holds too much power.

If you played in the business worl you may be keen to these things.

The TSX is heavily tilted to Resources, which is the chief sector for Canada's Export. Raw Goods, not finished or consumer goods. Fact is the coal from eastern BC goes to China so they can make steel. China is in a recession because they asked for it. Our govt sending money to Tech Coal, Western Canadian Coal, and Peace River Coal is not going to sustainably help out the folks in Tumbler Ridge, Elkford, Sparwood, Cranbrook, and Fernie...It just isn't.

Good businesses make hay when the sun shines, and saves some for when it isn't. The ones that don't need to die or adapt.

A few clarification comments then:

1) i never stated that industries should be bailed out whole hog, and perhaps i should have mentioned, but i believe that what should have happen is that the government put in place various loan guarantees to affected (and some non-affected) industries in order for them to upgrade facilities and increase productivities - this is more of a hand-up approach vs a hand-out approach. and it can be win-win. company gets money to improve its business and efficiencies. government gets continued employment of voters who pay tax and, eventually, return on their investment.

2) I mostly believe economic stimulus should be in the way of PUBLIC infrastructure building. Roads, bridges, tunnels. Sewer systems, watermains, transit projects. Windfarms, tidal power farms, solar farms. Projects that are either needed now (and have been needed for a long time) or that would improve Canadian economics and environmental footprint into the future (alternative energy projects). These projects could employ many people, pump money into a number of supply chains, result in a lot of secondary stimulus and come back to the government in the form of income and sales taxes, corporate taxes and the like.

I'll just throw out some imaginary numbers here (because I really have no clue as to a cost analysis on these sort of things). if the stimulus was $30B (over 5 years) - and it all went to infrastructure projects, let's assume companies winning the bids want 20% profit - so $6B. and let's split the rest between people and materials - $12B each. if average salary was $60K (probably high, but who knows) - that would be enough to fund 40000 salaries over 5 years - which would return ~ 3B back to the government in the form of income tax. nevermind the salaries and profits that would be taxed on the suppliers' and the suppliers' suppliers' sides... maybe one of you business types could take this example and make it more realistic - i don't have much in the way of knowledge from this end (I do know from experience that in retail, supplies and staff are probably ~1.5:1 or so... but no profit, hence we're out of it).

3.) your comments on how companies are holding onto projects until enough contractors fail is interesting and not something much reported on, so unless you are "in the know", well, you wouldn't (and I didn't). though I would have (perhaps, naively) thought that more contractors would have meant more competition and cheaper quotes. I can understand playing the waiting game with the resource pricing though - gamble that commodities will fall some more, though one has to think that oil is probably close to bottoming out, and that the metals will too in the next quarter or two.

I do know that Canada is much better off economically than most countries, mostly due to our financial industry not being allowed to make the same mistakes as in the other countries (speaking well of the regulations put in place by liberals mostly). however, i still think we are going to be hit with a short, light recession. which only feels short and light if you are not the one to lose your job, house, etc.

4.) I have no solution to people who won't make the sacrifices to better there own life. it's symptomatic of the same sense of entitlement i was discussing with regards to undergrad students and youth in general. my experience in unions demonstrated that many (not all, maybe even not most, but close) union members feel that same sense of entitlement.

 

[The_Reverend]

If you are anything like my old buddy Allan on your squad, and jump OUT of the way of a clean tackle, then we won't have any problems.

I usually just take it - kind of like them hitting an oak tree...

 

[The_Reverend]

First of all, I don't think we're really too far off here and, in fact, I agree with most of what you are saying. But to throw in an off-topic ill informed shot at doctors undermines the legitimacy of your other arguments. It's a red herring, simple as that. FWIW, I'm a molecular biologist and probably know exactly what your program requires but when you state inclusion of a couple PBL courses in a much larger curiculum is serious problem that is 'whittl[ing] away at the standards " of higher education I'm going to call you on it.

perhaps my post wasn't completely clear and as i mentioned pbl is a particular pet peeve of mine. i've never dealt well working in groups with people of much less ability than me. perhaps a bit egotistical (and I can/do have that fault) but I find it irritating when I can finish an entire project on my own more successfully and quicker than when in a group. i've always hated getting brought down due to no fault of my own. and there is only so much you can do to help someone without a clue in a GROUP project. but i digress... again...

btw, are you in grad school or working? where?

 

[The_Reverend]

Actually, a fundamental tenet of a democracy is that the people give those that they vote in, an absolute mandate to represent their wishes (however those elected in choose to do so...usually by voting for things within the Parliament as they see fit) and vote for individuals to respresent their interests because they don't have the time to do it themselves (and it would be completely impractical and costly for every citizen of voting age to vote on all of the day to day issues that affect a country.) That's why it is so important to figure out what the person running for office believes in BEFORE casting a vote for them: so we can figure out how they might vote in any particular situation that may arise to see if they would vote according to principles that we could support.

I totally agree with your post. Part of the problem is that people only learn enough from their candidates as they can get from soundbites and video clips. And that pragmatism my have to reign it's head for some governance to work as priorities shift and change.

On another note, I had an interesting conversation about this with my wife and she believes the entire ordeal was a set-up by Harper - a big gamble on his part, but a shrewd one. It is likely that the Libs/NDP/BQ were planning a coalition for later (say after the lib leader convention) and harper got wind of it and decided to egg them into it early so they would have to use a lame-duck PM (dion) to lead the coalition. If it resulted in an election, he could blame the coalition and keep his fingers crossed that the voters forgot that he instigated the ordeal. If the coalition started to lead, he would sit back and watch it destroy itself (assuming it does) and then he'd be there to pick up the pieces at the next election and win his majority - blaming all problems on the coalition. And, best case scenario, have GG end the session and sitback and watch as the coalition struggled to stay together and maintain rhetoric while not doing anything. I really hate Harper, but if this really was all part of his plan, I would say he's really shrewd. Evil, but shrewd.

 

[knvb]

Geez-us, 5 on the bounce. You've got more conversations going on than a Britney Speers chat room. Isn't there a coffee shop couch you should have monopolized with books and a lap top by now? Since we're speaking of pet peeves...

Let the other kids play.

 

[The_Reverend]

Geez-us, 5 on the bounce. You've got more conversations going on than a Britney Speers chat room. Isn't there a coffee shop couch you should have monopolized with books and a lap top by now? Since we're speaking of pet peeves...

Let the other kids play.

so i can multi-task - don't get jealous

and i am one of those rare beasts - a grad student that doesn't drink coffee - makes me an outcast

 

[Tuna]

Reverend, maybe you should trade in your lab coat for a future in politics? You certainly have the necessary pre-requ. of diarrhea of the mouth. I'd almost prefer reading Mr. Base's posts...

 

[The_Reverend]

Reverend, maybe you should trade in your lab coat for a future in politics? You certainly have the necessary pre-requ. of diarrhea of the mouth. I'd almost prefer reading Mr. Base's posts...

not my fault you cannot make logical arguments using supporting data to back your premise... a lot of jealousy on this site....

 

[Rivermouth]

In all the articles I've read (and it's been a lot) it seems that people that voted Conservative seem to dislike the Coalition, whereas people that voted Liberal/NDP, seem to be happy about the Coalition. Weird.

Yes...funny how that is?

 

[Rivermouth]

Reverend:

Interesting theory (and I wouldn't put anything past Harper...he's quite crafty). However, the desperation in his eyes, his focus on "P.R." as a tool to overcome this challenge (instead of "work") strongly indicates to me that he wasn't prepared for this. The problem with Harper is what I percieve as his sense of entitlement with respect to his position as P.M.: it's almost as if he believes it's his right to be there and that he is somehow owed the position. He bullies the opposition, his caucus, the bureaucracy, the press, and his Cabinet. Like the U.S. army: he's a "force of one". Unfortunately, he's not quite as smart as he thinks he is, and it was only a matter of time that those he was bullying began to fight back. I predict that if the coalition can present a fiscal program that is in keeping with the type of work that Paul Martin did as Finance Minister, with well thought out targeted economic stimulus', they will quickly be forgiven for having the audacity to do what was within their rights to do. If they present a namby pamby "throw money at the problem" type of fiscal policy...they will be destroyed in the next federal election (or at least be confined to the same places the NDP has been residing these past 30 years...in the corner with a lolly in their mouths, ranting and raving). It's a gamble for all, but I think that reality will keep the coalition working for the best interest of the country as a whole, without venturing into the fringes of public policy (i.e. Dion's poorly articulated green shift plan, or most of the fiscal policies of the NDP).

Today's results are disappointing, but now we'll see what Harper will do (or not do) and the same for the coalition group.

Game on!

 

[WaterBreak]

they talk of ressesion, and yet canada's GDP, was flatlined for the first quarters of the fiscal year, and yet in the last quarter, it has risen 0.3 %. modest, but growth. now, harper maybe a robot, and he has the charisma of a dead stump, but the man gets the job done. this coalition of the retarded is hinged apon the separtists. that is a scary thought. i appologize if this has been written before, i tried to read all the posts, but my eyes went blurry. so the proproe is on and now we will have a spring election instead of a winter election. and sometimes, i wonder why i don't vote. this is a good reminder.

 

[SofaKingGood]

I wonder what Mr. Base thinks of this?

 

[trece verde]

I wonder what Mr. Base thinks of this?

Actually, as evidenced by his posted meanderings, he tries his hardest not to think at all...

What WaterBreak was trying to say is Prorogue. We get a spring election to look forward to. Parliament is prorogued until January; Tories will try to pass their budget the day after the next sitting starts. With the current polarization of our MPs, there is no way the budget will pass, and it will be treated as a non-confidence vote. As a result we will get an election writ, and will be back in the silly season all over again.

Merry Christmas,

Trece

 

[Sliver]

YouTube - The Harper Dictatorship

 

[The_Reverend]

Actually, as evidenced by his posted meanderings, he tries his hardest not to think at all...

What WaterBreak was trying to say is Prorogue. We get a spring election to look forward to. Parliament is prorogued until January; Tories will try to pass their budget the day after the next sitting starts. With the current polarization of our MPs, there is no way the budget will pass, and it will be treated as a non-confidence vote. As a result we will get an election writ, and will be back in the silly season all over again.

Merry Christmas,

Trece

or we'll get the coalition at that time... hopefully they are preparing a budget simultaneously to present immediately.

remember, though, other than being official that the bq won't topple the ndp/lib coalition, they've propped the tories a number of times, and if the coalition fails, but it isn't in quebec's interest for an election, they will prop the tories a few more times. any party in a minority/coalition interest will use the separatists to keep governing.

and for the record, i don't think we are the only country with a separatist party elected to federal office - i believe Spain and maybe France have one - the basque separatists. at least ours aren't also terrorists.

 

[kurgan]

i believe Spain and maybe France have one - the basque separatists. at least ours aren't also terrorists.

Or they haven't been lately. Here ya go young'un.

The false part of Harper's whole argument is that the NDP/Liberal coalition will be any more beholden to the BQ than the Conservatives are.

 

[johnnybluenose]

YASS! (sorry, delayed reaction, I was up on Northern Vancouver Island eysterday mostly out of cell and internet connectivity)

Harper extended the olive branch for the idiots (Dion and Layton) to join him in preparing a can't miss Budget.

In fact I believe some of the above comments are wrong.

Yesterday I heard of at least 4 Liberal MP's saying now is the time to work with Harper to go forward, and the coalition is dead. Chief among these folks was Ignatieff, who kept his distance most of the debacle.

Bob Rae, Jack Layton, Gilles Duceppe, and bumbling Stephane Dion look like total arses and I think, looking back at it all now, this was the chance, the ONLY chance Rae, Dion, and Layton ever had at a shot in Power, and it is gone now, and they are PISSED!

I, as a Conservative, am thrilled to bits that Ignatieff looks well positioned to take over from Dion in May. Rae is done, his comments yesterday make him look just like his old Ontario-destroying NDP days, hardline this hardline that. Liberals are mostly centrist. Sucks to be him. I am happy Ignatieff has kept his distance and is now a slam dunk for the Liberals as the future opposition will need a good leader, and if Harper doesn't win a majority next, or step down, the Liberals will need a good PM canditidate. Rae and Dion need not apply.

 

[kurgan]

I, as a Conservative...

Whoa, you had us fooled there.