Liberal / NDP Coalition Government

[The_Reverend]

You mean doing something that has no precedent in Canadian History, like say...forming a federal coalition govt including the separatists!?

seriously...you're joking right!?

The fact of the matter is no matter what Harper did, the knives were out, the NDP were scheming with the Bloc and Dion was going to be entitled...

He could have come out and said blowjobs for every male and footrubs for every female, and 1 lucky Canadian gets to go to the moon every year on holiday, all expenses paid, and they were going to find a way to thrown him and the CPC out.

Seriously, get your head out of your ass.

Proroguing govt is just as legal, just as dirty, and just as shitty a way to deal with things as this coalition has, but it might buy him enough time to fire Flaherty, consider resigning and deliver an acceptable to all budget and new policy, buying the voters more time on their ballots cast without spending either 300 mill on another election or 30 billion in un-needed economic aid.

My head is no more up my ass than yours is your own... maybe less...

Canada has had a coalition before - during WWI. Admittedly, there weren't any seperatists in it (presumably - maybe they were in cognito). And I don't think this was a take down the government at any costs - obviously all three parties know this could bite them all in the ass - well, probably not Layton, as any NDP voter would keep on voting NDP for the most part over Conservative - but he wouldn't gain anything.

I think if Harper tried to address the economy in some manner more reassuring to the public, especially that large contingent in central Canada, and didn't antagonize the other parties, this would not have happened at all. And Canada does need some action by the government as we will not be able to completely escape WORLDWIDE economic problems, but we shouldn't need the degree of help other nations (US, UK, China) will require to keep things from really going to siht. And if that stimulus comes in a form of delaying corporate and/or income tax cuts and increasing the money going towards MUCH-NEEDED infrastructure projects (ideally, equitibly distributed through Canada), I don't think there is much reason to fear that it will bring us back to the Mulroney (Tory) years of record deficits and debt.

Personally, I was hoping the election would bring in a few Green candidates and enough NDP and Liberal to form a coalition government that wasn't beholden to the Tories or Bloc. Didn't happen. But, as I've stated before, there is no way the BQ will try to put independence on the table while the international economy is in the shitter as they would just become a third world nation that the US wouldn't even bother absorbing as they have no money. So, this is the only way to *attempt* a Canadian government that may work without the partisinship rancor. though if the tories did promise blowjobs and foot rubs, I might have voted for them.

your opinion was that this coalition forming is a bad idea and harper should try to keep power any way his slimy little hands can. fine i accept your opinion but disagree.

my opinion is give the coalition a chance to work (or fail) but Harper shouldn't try to cheat his way of his own mess.

and keep the insults to game reviews... i stuck up for you vs BD but now i'm thinking i shouldn't have....

 

[Regs]

I think JBN is angry.

Well, he is the Pele of East Van you know.

I'd be angry too.

 

[kurgan]

Going way off topic here but...

In my mind, the worse is the problem based learning many med schools use now, instead of memorization - they make groups of students work on a problem to diagnose a condition, rather than have individuals study every problem to memorize symptoms then test them rigorously. Tell me, do you want a doctor that has memorized every disease and symptom in his/her specialty or one that was carried by the research of his group of students? but that is another issue again...

Now there's an example of someone not knowing WTF. Your PhD program is nothing at all like med school/residency and you've no idea about the reality and the rigors of the exams.

Now back on topic. It's all well and good to spout off on why your political beliefs support your views on a coalition. However, what I've yet to see, and, really, don't expect to, is anyone convincing anyone else to change their mind.

Carry on ranting, but there are some people here making real asses of themselves.

Fcuk. In the time it takes me to respond there's 5 more posts. Quality, not quantity please.

 

[johnnybluenose]

The Reverend

my opinion is give the coalition a chance to work (or fail) but Harper shouldn't try to cheat his way of his own mess.

Why should the Canadian People, The people that ELECTED Harper and his boys to GOVERN, give a coalition a chance to work when they were scheming before the election against Harper, not giving him a chance to work!?

Economic Stimulus is garbage. The fact is the American Finance Houses (Due to Greenspan and no govt sanctioned checks and balances ie the CMHC in Canada) and Automobile sector (3 Domestic companies making too many bland and boring products that are unsustainable, poorly engineered, and built by union protected half-wits) is what has caused any issue that could affect us here.

Our economy is tied to theirs, like it or not.

as far as forestry, manufacturing, et all...these are industries that need to die, not need to be saved. It is called Globalization and there are a billion 12 year old kids in Asia that will make Tshirts, trinkets, toys, bluetooth headsets, a lot cheaper than if the plant is in Richmond Hill Ontario, or Windsor Ontario.

so why am I offering up problems but no solutions!? at least for canada?

Well I am no economist, but what I see is a bunch of Manufacturing and Auto Workers hurting in central Canada. i am IN favor of Govt spending to mobilize them to places where they cannot get enough people. Fort Mac AB, High Level AB, Ekati NWT, Dawson City and Whitehorse YT, Northern Sask. Problem here is these guys are the same as the retards in the DTES that think because the drugs exist on the DTES they are entitled to free housing there, and will not accept any alternative. Also, Federal Government is not in favor of spending money on that, which would alleviate more than 1 or 2 problems right now...
-People earning cheques and paying Income tax instead of collecting EI out of the tax pool
-Allowing dead industries to die in peace instead of keeping them on fruitless life support
-Putting more people where more land and wealth are
etc.

Putting money into forestry just means they can produce more wood and paper products of which there is no (profitable) market for

Look at the facts.

Amid the market gloom, there was some cheering news as well, with Toyota Canada announcing a record sale of Toyota and Lexus brand cars, trucks and SUVs in November.

The company said it sold 12,792 vehicles this November, up 1.9 per cent from November 2007.

With a total sale of 214,406 vehicles so far this year, the company said it has already surpassed the record sales of 201,326 vehicles in 2007.

[URL="http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/Global_Markets/BlackBerry_shares_hit_years_low_on_Toronto_Stock_Exchange/articleshow/3788026.cms"]source

all is not doom and gloom.

Our markets are in trouble because they are tied to the US markets, there is no amount of Govt Bailout to save this.
Our people in manufacturing and forestry are in trouble because of bad unions and poorly engineered products produced by poorly run companies

Our financial markets in housing and investment are ok. They are not great, but they are not terrible. Our market (Not just in BC but Canada wide) was in a bubble-boom. It had to end somewhere. yes markets and sales have slowed 70% compared to last year, but prices have been holding recently, they have come down from last year, but have held, and strongly for the last 3-5 months, and seem like they are not going to drop further.

Why do we need govt to pump in 30 Bill!? Because the yanks are?

That sounds like a good idea to me.

Let's also start a massive war on terror with middle eastern countries, why not!? They are....

Let's start a "War on drugs" why not?! They are, and how successfully too

Let's allow folks to have guns with minimal checks and balances, so that they often fall into wrong hands (youth/streets)...why Not? They do it!?

Let's spend over half our GDP on militaristic spending! Great Idea...they do!

Sincerely,

Bitter.

 

[The_Reverend]

Going way off topic here but...
Now there's an example of someone not knowing WTF. Your PhD program is nothing at all like med school/residency and you've no idea about the reality and the rigors of the exams.

And you have no clue what my PhD program requires. I've had PBL sessions which were taken directly from UBC's med school program. And they were a joke. They were also not introductory problems, as the course coordinators believed (likely correctly) that most grad students have much better web search techniques than most med students and so could attempt more difficult problems than first or even second-year med students. As well, I have several friends who went through med school at various institutions and the consensus from them matches my own. I didn't say they were a cake-walk, but I do think that they take the level of the group involved in PBL problems down to level of the lowest common denominator.

I have also had experiences with new doctors coming from some of the first PBL-trained graduating classes and they didn't know their head from a hole in the ground. Not saying all are like that, but the ones I've interacted with were.

my personal experience with pre-med students also gives me a low opinion of them in general (in a stereotypical way, as some were ok) as many of them bitch and whine for tiny bits of marks on assignments and exams (I use to TA alot) to try to bring up there GPA that little bit. And mostly, they didn't get it from me because they were wrong, but I definitely had better things to do with my time.


and i think dude and i convinced each other we were good guys...so we probably won't go too hard in on tackles next time we play against each other.

 

[The_Reverend]

The Reverend

Why should the Canadian People, The people that ELECTED Harper and his boys to GOVERN, give a coalition a chance to work when they were scheming before the election against Harper, not giving him a chance to work!?

The logical fallacy that everyone slamming the coalition is falling for is that "Canada voted for the Tories to lead a minority government". Canada did no such thing. 38% of the people preferred that the Tories form the government. They voted for a Tory majority, and hoped that such a thing came to pass. 62% of the country voted so that some other party could form a government, preferably that their brand of poison (political party) could form majority. All parties campaigned (except Bloc) on forming a majority - even Layton (though he knew that was less than a pipedream). By that token, Canada did not vote for the Tories to form a government. That just happens to be the default when a minority government is the result of an election. However, if 62% of the people voted elsewise, and the members of the parties that they elected could be pragmatic enough to form a functioning (which remains to be seen of course), government, then that, too, is democratic. And, in fact, I would say even more democratic than a minority government, because it is led by a coalition with the support of majority of the voters. It is up to them to see if they can blend idealogies (and the Bloc isn't only about separation, though it is only about Quebec) well enough not to disenfranchise their constituents and voters in general.

 

[termatofylakas]

and i think dude and i convinced each other we were good guys...so we probably won't go too hard in on tackles next time we play against each other.

Riiiiiiiiiight

 

[Dude]

and i think dude and i convinced each other we were good guys...so we probably won't go too hard in on tackles next time we play against each other.

If you are anything like my old buddy Allan on your squad, and jump OUT of the way of a clean tackle, then we won't have any problems.

 

[hammerhead]

Rev

Where I come from, we call pre-med 1st year science, and its something you use at the bar to impress the chicks. It means nothing....much like pre-law

I have to agree with Kurgan on this one. I can see you think taking 5 years to write a book that noone will read is comparable to a 5 year residency program, but you havent a fcuking clue.

 

[johnnybluenose]

The logical fallacy that everyone slamming the coalition is falling for is that "Canada voted for the Tories to lead a minority government". Canada did no such thing. 38% of the people preferred that the Tories form the government. They voted for a Tory majority, and hoped that such a thing came to pass. 62% of the country voted so that some other party could form a government, preferably that their brand of poison (political party) could form majority. All parties campaigned (except Bloc) on forming a majority - even Layton (though he knew that was less than a pipedream). By that token, Canada did not vote for the Tories to form a government. That just happens to be the default when a minority government is the result of an election. However, if 62% of the people voted elsewise, and the members of the parties that they elected could be pragmatic enough to form a functioning (which remains to be seen of course), government, then that, too, is democratic. And, in fact, I would say even more democratic than a minority government, because it is led by a coalition with the support of majority of the voters. It is up to them to see if they can blend idealogies (and the Bloc isn't only about separation, though it is only about Quebec) well enough not to disenfranchise their constituents and voters in general.

How did Canadians not vote for the PM and the CPC to govern, albeit with a minority!? Those are facts. More people voted for them and got more of the CPC elects into seats than any other party, thereby forming govt, albeit minority.

the 60-some odd percent that voted otherwise did NOT vote for a coalition, they voted for, as you called it, their brand of poison.

This is an nonsense answer to my answer to your statement. and you have, as have all the other leftist theorists here, dodged answering questions.

Why should we give the coalition a chance if they weren't willing to give Harper a chance!?

What, specifically, is their plan to cure this massive issue of "economic crisis", their words, not mine...?!

Can the NDP explain their actions in backroom dealing with the Bloc pre-election? And if not, and if they have nothing to hide, why are they endeavoring to suppress the tapes of the call the CPC got their hands on?

Can Dion ethically and morally lay claim to the PM's chair after committing to resign once the Grits have found a new leader, if he is not fit to lead the party, how is he fit to lead our Country!?

There are many many more answers that have yet to be answered by this coalition and their supporters, who seem keen to drink their brand of snake oil, just because they hate Harper.

 

[The_Reverend]

The Reverend
Economic Stimulus is garbage. The fact is the American Finance Houses (Due to Greenspan and no govt sanctioned checks and balances ie the CMHC in Canada) and Automobile sector (3 Domestic companies making too many bland and boring products that are unsustainable, poorly engineered, and built by union protected half-wits) is what has caused any issue that could affect us here.

Our economy is tied to theirs, like it or not.

as far as forestry, manufacturing, et all...these are industries that need to die, not need to be saved. It is called Globalization and there are a billion 12 year old kids in Asia that will make Tshirts, trinkets, toys, bluetooth headsets, a lot cheaper than if the plant is in Richmond Hill Ontario, or Windsor Ontario.

so why am I offering up problems but no solutions!? at least for canada?

Well I am no economist, but what I see is a bunch of Manufacturing and Auto Workers hurting in central Canada. i am IN favor of Govt spending to mobilize them to places where they cannot get enough people. Fort Mac AB, High Level AB, Ekati NWT, Dawson City and Whitehorse YT, Northern Sask. Problem here is these guys are the same as the retards in the DTES that think because the drugs exist on the DTES they are entitled to free housing there, and will not accept any alternative. Also, Federal Government is not in favor of spending money on that, which would alleviate more than 1 or 2 problems right now...
-People earning cheques and paying Income tax instead of collecting EI out of the tax pool
-Allowing dead industries to die in peace instead of keeping them on fruitless life support
-Putting more people where more land and wealth are
etc.

Putting money into forestry just means they can produce more wood and paper products of which there is no (profitable) market for

Look at the facts.
[URL="http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/Global_Markets/BlackBerry_shares_hit_years_low_on_Toronto_Stock_Exchange/articleshow/3788026.cms"]source

all is not doom and gloom.

Our markets are in trouble because they are tied to the US markets, there is no amount of Govt Bailout to save this.
Our people in manufacturing and forestry are in trouble because of bad unions and poorly engineered products produced by poorly run companies

Our financial markets in housing and investment are ok. They are not great, but they are not terrible. Our market (Not just in BC but Canada wide) was in a bubble-boom. It had to end somewhere. yes markets and sales have slowed 70% compared to last year, but prices have been holding recently, they have come down from last year, but have held, and strongly for the last 3-5 months, and seem like they are not going to drop further.

Why do we need govt to pump in 30 Bill!? Because the yanks are?

That sounds like a good idea to me.

Let's also start a massive war on terror with middle eastern countries, why not!? They are....

Let's start a "War on drugs" why not?! They are, and how successfully too

Let's allow folks to have guns with minimal checks and balances, so that they often fall into wrong hands (youth/streets)...why Not? They do it!?

Let's spend over half our GDP on militaristic spending! Great Idea...they do!

Sincerely,

Bitter.

Giving people money to relocate is a bailout or economic stimulus, like it or not.

Some industries should be allowed to die, I agree. But not all manufacturing and what have you. It does not bode well for a country to lose all its tech base to foreign nations. Diversified industries and careers make for a stronger nation. and i'm not sure i wish to buy everything from china or india - i don't trust their manufacturies to produce safe products and i try to buy canadian or even american if i can. Canada first. US second.

A lot of the TSX problems is more tied to worldwide woes. It is heavily tilted to the commodities side and with recessions throughout most of the world, less commodities are being used, so prices drop and profits decrease so shares go down. Oil stocks are a big example.

As for forestry, the issue isn't whether the industry is viable, but rather, why it makes more sense to cut trees and ship the logs to other countries. And a vast amount of lumber is shipped to the US for housing, so if there aren't any housing starts there, the lumber can't be sold here. The industry isn't unviable, but needs a new direction. Changing to a value-added industry would save forestry in Canada and provide more jobs.

Economic stimulus is not garbage and usually helps when a country is moving into a recession (not depression) to shorten how long it lasts. Bailouts are usually what fail to work correctly.

 

[The_Reverend]

How did Canadians not vote for the PM and the CPC to govern, albeit with a minority!? Those are facts. More people voted for them and got more of the CPC elects into seats than any other party, thereby forming govt, albeit minority.

the 60-some odd percent that voted otherwise did NOT vote for a coalition, they voted for, as you called it, their brand of poison.

This is an nonsense answer to my answer to your statement. and you have, as have all the other leftist theorists here, dodged answering questions.

Why should we give the coalition a chance if they weren't willing to give Harper a chance!?

What, specifically, is their plan to cure this massive issue of "economic crisis", their words, not mine...?!

Can the NDP explain their actions in backroom dealing with the Bloc pre-election? And if not, and if they have nothing to hide, why are they endeavoring to suppress the tapes of the call the CPC got their hands on?

Can Dion ethically and morally lay claim to the PM's chair after committing to resign once the Grits have found a new leader, if he is not fit to lead the party, how is he fit to lead our Country!?

There are many many more answers that have yet to be answered by this coalition and their supporters, who seem keen to drink their brand of snake oil, just because they hate Harper.

Harper folded the government 18 months before he promised he would. the others did not take it down. he lost credibility in my mind then. the coalition is an acceptable method of governance. situations change and people (even politicians) are allowed to work with it. if the coalition goes through, and it seems to work, people will decide with their votes later whether they were happy or not. politicians renege on promises all the time. harper did about income trusts. libs under chretian did about gst. it will happen until the end of time. accept it. sometimes change is for the better. we'll see. now i've got to go catch a bus.

 

[johnnybluenose]

Giving Money to people to better your country is not a bailout, it is prudent planning, but it is a red herring. They won't take it if it is offered to them.

Do you honestly think a guy that has worked a cushy Union Blessed job pushing the button at a sheetmetal stamp for Ford Motor Company in Windsor ON is interested in uprooting his family to go work for Suncor at the new Foothills project ramping to go to construction next year!? Hell No, he can collect EI and be done with it, or get a nice buyout cheque from FoMoCo and work as Walmart as a greeter.

In general the manufacturing sector is not hurting Canada wide, it is hurting in Central Canada where the CAW holds too much power.

If you played in the business worl you may be keen to these things.

The TSX is heavily tilted to Resources, which is the chief sector for Canada's Export. Raw Goods, not finished or consumer goods. Fact is the coal from eastern BC goes to China so they can make steel. China is in a recession because they asked for it. Our govt sending money to Tech Coal, Western Canadian Coal, and Peace River Coal is not going to sustainably help out the folks in Tumbler Ridge, Elkford, Sparwood, Cranbrook, and Fernie...It just isn't.

Good businesses make hay when the sun shines, and saves some for when it isn't. The ones that don't need to die or adapt.

 

[johnnybluenose]

The issue, spinoff issues, for guys like Dude and I is that our customers and their CFO's & COO's are very wary of the availability of money, not the lack of money, or drying up of new sources of money...

Many major projects have been shelved recently, and not because they cannot get money, it is because they can build it cheaper if they wait longer. They're hedging a bet that contractors that didn't run their businesses properly will fold and die therefore making the ones remaining hungrier and willing to work for less margin and profit to avoid a similar fate, so they can get more for their money, or the same for less money.

In Mining and Industrial recently:
Ruby Creek Mine
Galore Creek Mine
Foothills, Fort Mac
New Afton, New Gold
Kemess North (Still think the Native mishap is a red herring)

 

[kurgan]

And you have no clue what my PhD program requires. I've had PBL sessions which were taken directly from UBC's med school program. And they were a joke. They were also not introductory problems, as the course coordinators believed (likely correctly) that most grad students have much better web search techniques than most med students and so could attempt more difficult problems than first or even second-year med students. As well, I have several friends who went through med school at various institutions and the consensus from them matches my own. I didn't say they were a cake-walk, but I do think that they take the level of the group involved in PBL problems down to level of the lowest common denominator.

I have also had experiences with new doctors coming from some of the first PBL-trained graduating classes and they didn't know their head from a hole in the ground. Not saying all are like that, but the ones I've interacted with were.

my personal experience with pre-med students also gives me a low opinion of them in general (in a stereotypical way, as some were ok) as many of them bitch and whine for tiny bits of marks on assignments and exams (I use to TA alot) to try to bring up there GPA that little bit. And mostly, they didn't get it from me because they were wrong, but I definitely had better things to do with my time.


and i think dude and i convinced each other we were good guys...so we probably won't go too hard in on tackles next time we play against each other.

First of all, I don't think we're really too far off here and, in fact, I agree with most of what you are saying. But to throw in an off-topic ill informed shot at doctors undermines the legitimacy of your other arguments. It's a red herring, simple as that. FWIW, I'm a molecular biologist and probably know exactly what your program requires but when you state inclusion of a couple PBL courses in a much larger curiculum is serious problem that is 'whittl[ing] away at the standards " of higher education I'm going to call you on it.

 

[johnnybluenose]

However, The Reverend is educated[sic] and that is all good by The Big Dipper, a real professional

 

[Dude]

We've just cancelled an order for New Gold. The cancellation fee is in the 75% range of our gross margin on this order. And since they are in effect buying the drawings off us, this is equipment we will end up building 12-18 months down the road. We'll make out better in the long run.

Plus there is the matter of the stop / go costs associated w/ Amec.

I don't see exactly how that makes good sense, but they must see a greater savings in the contractors they can beat up. Personally, I think it is more a matter of cashflow management right now.

 

[The Big Dipper]

JBN, were you and Italian Stallion neighbours growing up in Whalley by any chance?

Seems like all that neighbourhood crack has gone to your brain!

 

[Rivermouth]

Johnny Bluenose said: "How did Canadians not vote for the PM and the CPC to govern, albeit with a minority!? Those are facts. More people voted for them and got more of the CPC elects into seats than any other party, thereby forming govt, albeit minority.

the 60-some odd percent that voted otherwise did NOT vote for a coalition, they voted for, as you called it, their brand of poison."

Actually, a fundamental tenet of a democracy is that the people give those that they vote in, an absolute mandate to represent their wishes (however those elected in choose to do so...usually by voting for things within the Parliament as they see fit) and vote for individuals to respresent their interests because they don't have the time to do it themselves (and it would be completely impractical and costly for every citizen of voting age to vote on all of the day to day issues that affect a country.) That's why it is so important to figure out what the person running for office believes in BEFORE casting a vote for them: so we can figure out how they might vote in any particular situation that may arise to see if they would vote according to principles that we could support.

In other words, all citizens have individual rights, and by voting for and electing MP's we effectively assign some of our rights to them with particular emphasis on the right to make decisions for us for a period of years until another General Vote occurs to reestablish another Mandate. If a group is elected with less than a Majority, but with greater elected seats than the other groups (individually), that group gets a shot at leading the country, BUT at any time (inclusive of the seconds right after election results are announced) if the balance of the other elected members in the other groups decide to work together in a "coalition", THEY HAVE A GREATER NUMBER OF COMBINED SEATS and they go to the Gov. Gen. and prove that they will work together, then THEY have the right to lead, since they represent a greater number of Citizens who gave them both a greater number of combined seats, AND THE MANDATE TO MAKE DECISIONS FOR THEM, whatever those decisions are (Inclusive of deciding to form a coalition). IT HAPPENS OFTEN IN MANY OTHER DEMOCRACIES THAT WE RESPECT AND ADMIRE AROUND THE WORLD (Italy and Germany come to mind immediately), so what's all the fuss about now??! Harper could have gone to the Libs and formed a Majority coalition with THEM right after the election and it would have been just as legal and morally acceptable, and I'm sure the Conservatives would be singing a different tune than they are right now.

Honestly, just because most members of the Conservative Party are naive to how our Democracy works, or even the principles behind the formation of Democracies (read John Locke) doesn't take away from the fact that not only is a coalition absolutely legal, but it is also morally acceptable based on the idea that they received a greater number of votes cast by Canadian Citizens and, therefore, represent the wishes of a greater proportion of the country's people.

I would hazard the guess that those that voted Liberal and NDP (and frankly, even the Bloc) are pretty happy that this coalition is forming, while the largest screams are coming from those who voted Conservative in the last election. Maybe now we'll look at a proper Proportional Representation Electoral system instead of the shiteshow we have now?

The bottom line is that Harper's bullying and incompetence (in making the Economic "statement" a partisan issue that was an attack on the Opposition parties designed to weaken them and give an advantage to the Conservatives in any future elections, instead of about anything having to do with the economy) has led to this moment. And now instead of focusing on the economy, he's going to spend millions of dollars on P.R. so that he doesn't have to face how incredibly arrogant he was?! What a right stupid twat!

 

[italian_stallion21]

In all the articles I've read (and it's been a lot) it seems that people that voted Conservative seem to dislike the Coalition, whereas people that voted Liberal/NDP, seem to be happy about the Coalition. Weird.