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Canada MNT: Road to 2018

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Jigsaw

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Love his passion for Canada & the National Team Program.
This is a true reflection of where we are, here in Canada with regards to the game we all love.
With all due respect, if it was a National Team in Europe not qualifying, we would be hearing a rant from: Alan Shearer, Thierry Henry, Micheal Ballack, etc.
People who have been involved at the highest level, in their Countries.
Here in Canada, we have to hear it from an "Armchair Coach", who makes some valid points, but the reality of it is, he's no more than a fan on a soapbox.
The point I'm trying to make here, is that we don't have a lot of depth, when it comes to experienced people, who have the background & knowledge to be able to rant about the program, that might have an influence on the decision makers at CSA.
The ones who still might have something to offer, through their experiences in CONCACAF, are cast aside & never asked for input.
That's a shame.
Before you all get you knickers in a twist, I'm not including myself in that list.
I do give my opinions, whether they ask for it, or not.
Sometimes, getting in trouble for it.
Hopefully not this time.
 

djones

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If grassroots soccer is responsible for the failure in this round of World Cup qualifying, I'd like to point out that those players who played for Canada were grassroots level 15+ years ago.

Although our grassroots soccer is far from perfect, it is drastically different from 15+ years ago when these players were going thru. Can and should it get better? Absolutely but let's be more accurate when we play the blame game.
 

bulljive

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Honestly I've noticed a drastic difference in the level of players from when I came up versus now at the grass roots level. it's improving all the time in my opinion. I just wonder if we are improving enough as obviously a lot of other nations have made massive strides as well.

At the top level we still seem to be very canadian. No real special talents and creative inventive players. A lot of hard work but nobody that can pick a team apart. If we think missing Will Johnson is a big loss, imagine we had a player of even a Landy Cakes ability in his prime. We don't have dangerous players.
 

trece verde

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Was previously trying to stay out of this, but some things need to be said.
  1. Jigsaw knows a hell of a lot more than he's trying to let on. Yes, I do know who he is. Soccer Coach may not.
  2. There are things right with Canadian soccer, but there are still a lot of things wrong. Let's say that we have hit a number of developmental plateaus with players. Unfortunately, a lot of them have been the same plateau hit multiple times. This is NOT the fault of grassroots level coaches; it's a lack of adequate structure at different levels of the developmental system.
  3. We have something that used to be part of the game that has gone missing. It's called free play. This is what kids used to do when I was substantially younger, and a playing career in professional footy was a viable option in Canada. It's not something that belongs specifically to any cultural group other than the soccer cultural group. In Canada, it has been largely replaced by structured practice time. Again, this is not the fault of grassroots level coaches. We can't force this to be a thing at all or structure it; it's spontaneous. A very small number of our kids still have it, but for the most part, it's gone. I can't count the number of times where I have told kids to go home and practice their foot skills with a tennis ball until they drive their mums nuts and they just haven't done so. This is where the creativity and spontaneity with the ball come from that we are all bemoaning is lacking in our players at the international level - years of turning experimenting with crazy touches on the ball into second nature, and the confidence that comes with it to do this kind of stuff successfully under pressure. I can set (and do) regular training sessions with a goal of 6-700 touches per player on a ball, but it still won't equate. That lack of confidence (and the missing structure to support it) are continuing to contribute toward producing the lack of finish/creativity/competitiveness that we are frustratingly seeing in our erstwhile-best players, and that manifests itself in that frustrating hoof and hope style of play.
  4. Things at the grassroots level aren't as bad as we think. More certified coaches = better coaching methodologies = eventually producing better coaches and better-trained players. Better trained coaches also = better identification of talent at a younger age. Better identification should lead to better nurturing of that talent, but that's getting ahead of myself. Right now, my mission consists primarily of trying to train these coaches to identify and bring the best out of their players, and nurture that creativity. We still have a ways to go with this, because there are still people who don't get it. Thankfully, they are an extremely small part of the audience here.
  5. Where the system breaks down: we have one of the worst systems for identifying and supporting talent going. Despite the number of private academies, and finally now professional club academies, we're just not doing it effectively. We still have a system that identifies players more on the basis of the thickness of their parents' wallets than on their merit or potential as players. This is changing at a glacial pace.
  6. Is the current level of play better than it was when I was at that age? Yes and no. Players are definitely in better shape; they have the benefit of much better science and nutrition than we had; they theoretically have better training methodologies; they should be more capable of playing an effective formation; and they should have better ball skills. So what's wrong? Again, it's the missing confidence to try the adventurous or even the audacious; it's the missing anticipation defensively or offensively that comes with playing at a higher level of play, and the missing exposure to that level.
  7. Context is important, too. Going back 30 years, think of the style of play, and how that has changed since. We definitely don't still all play that old 4/4/2 any more, and the players have changed with that.
All of this being equal, yeah, I was upset that Canada didn't make better use of a numerical advantage, and even more upset to watch the low-percentage route one ball and accompanying lack of creativity. There were a LOT of times when they really didn't look like a team with an extra man, and were chasing shadows again. That does read as naivety, right or wrong. Atiba's talent is definitely wasted on the majority of his team mates, who aren't even close. End of the world? Not even close yet.

More later...
 

Dude

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The whole "free play" issue keeps coming up. I 100% agree that it is missing, and it is what we had in youth. The tennis ball thing? I was that kid in the house playing with the ball. More than one of mum's vases were victim to that.

We played every day at school; before, lunch, after.

In the summer, I went everywhere w/ the ball in the net-bag, provided by Brad Higgs soccer school. I was always on a ball up to about 15 / Grade 10, when cycling started to distract me. And, let's be honest, at the local Premier levels, I wasn't on the pitch for my foot-skills. If I couldn't run all day, be position sound, and play a "tough" traditional Canadian style of football, I'd have never made that level. Other guys around here...yeah, let's just say the broken pathway failed them. It didn't fail me, I went as high as I could (College / Prem), but other guys...you could just see that if there was another level, they'd be there. A plateau is a great analogy. The plateau occurs when there simply isn't a higher level to move on to. Pretty simple to understand.

Culterally, I don't know where we are going, but I do know @LION made a fantastic point several pages back: we need to create our own culture. Part of that is professionalizing the local Premier leagues, getting fans out. How you do that, I don't know. Another part is having that Domestic league. A must have. From there, the culture has to develop generically, and nobody can force that.

We had a we bit of that growing up; I remember singing "White is the Color" in Kindergarten, and visits to class by the local Whitecaps. Carl Valentine became my favorite, I wanted to play like him. We need to have that level of enthusiasm for our local pros.

I don't know where I'm going w/ this, all I know is that our footballing culture got lost when the NASL folded, and losing the CSL shortly after made it worse. That's just on the cultural side, never mind the development / pathway side.
 

bandcamp

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I can tell you that the 13 year olds on my son's team are WAY more technically advanced than we were at that age. The other huge coaching point they receive is to play free and not be afraid to make mistakes. Game plan, structure, fitness, nutrition etc is all there but #1 is to play free.

So I do not agree that the kids today are not better than 30 years ago. I've also seen how they compete in Europe against other kids their age and they do extremely well. Outside of a couple noticeable players on one or two teams in Europe our kids look just like those kids...and win more than they lose. Clearly at this age we seem to be ok. What comes next is the problem.

Lastly, the size of my wallet has never once come up.
 

Regs

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Where the system breaks down: we have one of the worst systems for identifying and supporting talent going
Bingo. I have been saying this for decades.

It is something that I have NEVER seen discussed in any serious manner, especially by the twitter warriors out there with all the answers :rolleyes:
 

Jigsaw

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Bingo. I have been saying this for decades.

It is something that I have NEVER seen discussed in any serious manner, especially by the twitter warriors out there with all the answers :rolleyes:

When I was coaching the National Training Centre players, many years ago, I used to get at least 2 calls a week from coaches, recommending players they either coached, or had seen play. They were always invited to come to training, after assessing them for a few sessions, they would either be kept on, or released. Some players, who had been there a while would also be released, if better players came in, that way, we kept the best "current players" in the training sessions & no-one got a "free pass". All of this at no cost. They also still played for their respective clubs.
I also used to call every coach in the leagues of U16-18 and ask who they thought should be looked at, not from their team, but from any of the other teams. When I looked at all of their lists, it was clear that some players were on every list.
Those players were invited into the camp.
I also went out regularly to watch games & sometimes would spot "A diamond in the rough".
During those days, it was normal for 12 out of an 18 man Canadian squad, came from BC.
That has drastically changed over the years.
We are lucky if we get 1, or 2 players selected now & on occasions, they are not even from BC, just training here.
With all of the paid coaches now & academies with "Professional Coaches" coaching full time, it seems we have less success in getting BC players to the next level than we did before.
 

Soccer Coach

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I have promised myself I wouldn’t do this, but here we go…

I have posted multiple times, and wrote to you in private, I agree with 90% of what you say. 90%! There are some areas where you and I disagree, and those areas are:

  1. You feel that our grassroots system is completely backwards, I disagree. Our results up to a certain age level prove, year after year, that the best of our youth compete with the best of the rest of the world on the world scale.

  2. I have tied my wagon to the fact we have a broken pathway system, meaning, once our best boys hit the age of 16, there is nowhere to go, because the Canadian passport kills their chances.

  3. I and others have tried to explain point 2 above to you several times. It’s the business of football and world politics that stop our boys in their tracks. Import restrictions, and foreign work permit restrictions prevent all but our very best from making a career overseas. This, more than any other reason, is the main factor in our best going overseas then coming home w/ their tail between their legs, only to play university, or the local men’s leagues.

  4. Point 3 above and your absolute inability to understand this factor lead me to believe you are in fact, an idiot. Point 3 above and your absolute inability to understand this factor lead me to believe you are in fact, an idiot. Point 3 above and your absolute inability to understand this factor lead me to believe you are in fact, an idiot.

  5. Repeat point 4 above three times. That will now be a total of 9 times repeated, I hope it sinks in.

  6. Canada needs to address our issues on both ends: on the grassroots level, I do believe we need a higher focus on technical development, and the overall education of football. Not just CONCACAF style, but all styles. The more education, the better. We also need a greater focus on bringing players back to coach. Difficult, when, the volunteer system and bureaucracy only serves to discourage former players from returning to coach.

  7. On the other end, we need our own domestic professional league, complete w/ our own import restrictions, complete w/ a pay grade that is high enough to encourage young footballers to make footballing as a career choice when they are young.

  8. We need a tail to nose pathway system. Right now, we are missing the nose. How you fail to see this as a major problem is beyond me, and thus, I feel you are both completely stubborn, and / or dumb as a bag of hammers.

  9. I 100% agree with your assessment of our overall training at grassroots. Overall, it’s lacking. Overall, we have a huge problem there. That doesn’t mean there aren’t still good coaches and good people within.

  10. I also agree that, in order to qualify for the WC through CONCACAF, we need to expose our kids and National team to more CONCACAF matches, including travel for tourneys. This needs to be a staple, and start early, so as to build the educational base on how to compete at that level. I thought this was a very good point, credit due. You are still an idiot. You are still an idiot. You are still an idiot.

  11. Your point: “It is so simple, yet there is no political or institutional desire to do it.” Again, you obviously don’t take the time to read what has been stated here. This is BY FAR the #1 beef we as coaches have with the current system! By far! On this I 100% agree with you, and I’m sure most experienced, qualified coaches would too! We are infinitely frustrated with the political system holding us back.

  12. Another point you made: “Now you have better soccer (relative) from USA, Mexico, Panama, Costa Rica, Honduras, Jamaica, Trinidad, Guatemala, and Cuba and a couple of two more little islands, . This leaves Canada ranked about 10th. This is what YOU guys do not see. The rest of the region has improved a lot.” This was, obviously, written by the other 1/3 of your persona, not the actual soccer coach, probably the spoiled brat who pays his div. 2 players to play for you. Anyhow…how is it that you think we don’t understand this? Most of us have watched the degradation of our National team over a 35 year spell! We’ve grown up as footballers while we watched the National programs fall apart around us, and our only domestic league disintegrate. The truth is, it’s very frustrating being a footballer in this country, because we are constantly swimming upstream. My generation has had to do the most swimming upstream. Guys like Geoff Aunger. Carlo Corrazin, Alex Bunburry, Dom Mobilio (RIP), John Catliff, Paul Dolan, by all rights and by the level they played and competed at, deserved to have fulfilling careers overseas! Wrong passport. But for the most part, they made a go of it, making a career of it in the lower European and English divisions while also serving their country for international play, on a team that would cheap out, fly them coach, put them up in shitty hotels, etc. The guys you now see at the top level deserve every bit and more praise because they’ve had to make careers of it swimming upstream. If you can’t see how much more difficult it is for Canadians to make a career out of this game, you are truly blind.
Here’s where you fall off the rails with me: I 100% disagree with your assertion that there aren’t ANY good people at the grassroots level. You couldn’t be any more incorrect on that front; we have some very good coaches doing very good things with players that never get recognized. Meanwhile, we have both an uneducated public that is critical of a system they have no clue about, and could never fathom the challenges, and people like you- foreigners from footballing first cultures that show up here, and treat us like country bumpkins that have never seen a football. You fixate on one very small aspect of my coaching- the fact I rewarded little, house level playing girls with ice cream for being able to complete technical moves in games. When they were 6, 7, and 8 years old. Again, playing house. You fixate on this as a MAJOR PROBLEM with the whole system! I have to ask, are you mad?

So, of ALL the issues we’ve “discussed” on this forum, you and I slightly disagree on a couple of things, if we can look at this completely analytically. With anyone else, I could sit down with a person who disagrees with me on a philosophical issue, and be open to discussion, so far as opening my mind and eyes to their point of view. Not you. The real problem here in this discussion isn’t us, it’s you and your condescending nature, and absolute refusal to believe and understand there are some pretty fcuking smart and good coaches on this forum where you too could actually learn something. You seem to think we haven’t been around the game our whole lives, and haven’t picked up a few things along the way. And, you have no idea the absolute high level of quality there is here (not me, others), and how truly insulting you are to them. These are people that could actually help you on your path, but you’ve come here and burned bridges. You asked me to come out and burry the hatchet…do you think I’d ever have a coffee with you? After what you’ve written? The reality is, I would never be able to look you in the eye with any respect. Thus, I could never have a cordial conversation w/ you.

The real humor in this, and truth is, I know this for a fact that the actual soccer coach 1/3 of the “Soccer Coach” persona can’t actually play worth a damn. Never mind playing at the highest levels locally, you’d be run off the pitch in a div. 2 masters league game. You would never survive either on the pitch, or in the change room. You would never have the respect of your teammates, and the reality is, you don’t have the respect of the adults you “coach”, because you can’t play yourself, and your top players are paid to play by the benevolent other 1/3 of your “Persona”. Truth hurts.

Seriously @Dude, I appreciate that you take the time to write these long posts. I can see that you care about the game and you get a bit emotional with my posts.

A couple of things that I would encourage you to think about it and reconsider.
1) There is no need to use insulting language. Concentrate on the ideas that I put forward and not the person or personal attacks.

2) You really can not eat your cake and have it at the same time.
The results are obvious:
The eliminations from World Cup; the lack of production of players at every level (yes, once in a while we get a few good players), the lack of production of good coaches (yes once in a while we get a good coach in a competitive league).

However, having said this, when people who have seen things work in other parts of the Americas and try to share with you where things are going wrong; you get all defensive, insulting, and get in denial mode.

For starters, to qualify for the World Cup you need a coach who has taken teams to the HEX and qualified them to the World Cup. This means that it can not be a Canadian born coach. It has to be someone who know how teams play in each country (La Volpe, Milotinovic, Arenas, Bradley, Herrera, etc). It is really not the same to play in the Azteca than in San Jose than in San Pedro than in Mateo Flores. Teams play different formations, different styles, and different climates make it for totally different games.

The same goes for youth players and coaches. Our youth clubs could send every year players to tournaments in the Caribe or Mexico and Central America and have exchanges with coaches from there. Until you experience how the play there and how the "see" the game there you are simply not going to beat them.

This is the biggest problem with Canadian soccer. Canadians are playing with themselves. Thinking that they are in Europe (either England, Italy, Germany, Netherlands, etc). They are not. Look at the evidence. Italy and England got humbled by tiny Costa Rica in the World Cup when those countries had superb soccer stars. It is really hard to play in tropical lands or high altitude no matter how good you are. You have to understand how to play there (i.e. no rushed way, fast transitions, etc. you will be dead in 20 minutes).

I will repeat myself and add a bit of evidence. The problem STARTS at the grassroots level. You are kidding yourselves and doing a disservice by thinking that the lack of a professional league is the problem. Please try to think logically:

If we would be producing good soccer players from an early age, then they would be finding spots in the Whitecaps, Toronto FC, or Montreal. Many players from the rest of the world leave to play overseas and never see one minute of playing time in their respective leagues. Look at Messi. He left when he was 12. Maradona was formed already by 15.

The formative years are crucial and are a complete disaster in Canadian soccer circles. I know that you do not see and other people here as well. In part because you have not seen it enough or are looking for other things (i.e. athleticism, maturity, decision making, etc). All those things are almost irrelevant in the early ages because they change so much later on. It is much more important to assess their relationship with the ball, their opponents and teammates.

This is what Messi displayed so well. He was little and would tire easily (could not play more than 20 minutes without fatigue).

With the exception of a handful kids, I have not seen kids here to display an adequate control of the ball (vis a vis Brazilian, Argentinean, Mexican, and other kids in the Americas). This is the truth.

If Messi would have been born in Vancouver, he would been slotted in Bronze or Silver and then told to stop dribbling with the ball and then probably would have quit as bigger kids would have pushed him around and fouled them.

I happened to walk by the practices of two clubs this week U12 and below. One of them the club of @trece verde, I can tell you with a straight face, that as much as I like trece, and appreciate what he is doing; none of those kids will ever make it past a low recreational level (i.e Division 3 of the VMSL at best). The way those parent coaches are teaching and guiding the kids is not the way to do it if you want the kids to develop to higher levels of competition.
I also happened to be in the "township" of Langley a few weeks ago and saw how they were teaching some little boys and girls. It was shocking. I thought of @Dude.

It really takes years of a positive and nurturing setting to develop players under an "appropriate" vision of the game.



The "appropriate" vision of the game is what Canadian youth coaches are lacking.
If you do not concentrate on proper body movement individually and with the ball; then it really does not matter at all your athleticism or decision making or quickness of reaction. This is what most people do not get.
If you think that we are fine below U12; then how come we are not competing even at this level even with bigger and more athletic kids. You can see that the U13 Whitecaps and Montreal did not do well and they are supposed to be the best in our country.
http://www.scotiabank.com.mx/es-mx/u-13/default.aspx

A professional league certainly would help, but it is not the crux of the problem. See the example of El Salvador in Concacaf, Peru in Commebol, and Norway in UEFA. They all have professional leagues but their national teams have gone backwards because they neglect their youth and grassroots development.
To have an analogy, if the root of the apple tree is rotten; then the apple would not taste well even if it looks good.

The problem starts with the grasroot level. If it is not fixed, it does not matter if we have a professional league.

I hope that people like you, trece, and Jigzaw think about this and reconsider because you could do a lot to fix the problem.
You might not see it, but you really could.

Essentially you guys are trying to solve the problem backwards. Yes, it might help and be a tricle down effect where the professional league might force to change the grasroot issues, but why not go straight to the problem from the beginning.
 

Stringer

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@Soccer Coach is TTP the only place u get insulted? I think you are insulted in other aspects of your life as well. Maybe the boss treats you like shite, wife wears the pants in your relationship, etc. I feel you may be one of the new crop of people who always get "offended" or "insulted"
 

Dude

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Seriously @Dude

However, having said this, when people who have seen things work in other parts of the Americas and try to share with you where things are going wrong; you get all defensive, insulting, and get in denial mode.


Did you miss the part when I wrote this:


I agree with 90% of what you say. 90%!

And this:

The real problem here in this discussion isn’t us, it’s you and your condescending nature, and absolute refusal to believe and understand there are some pretty fcuking smart and good coaches on this forum where you too could actually learn something. You seem to think we haven’t been around the game our whole lives, and haven’t picked up a few things along the way. And, you have no idea the absolute high level of quality there is here (not me, others), and how truly insulting you are to them. These are people that could actually help you on your path, but you’ve come here and burned bridges. You asked me to come out and burry the hatchet…do you think I’d ever have a coffee with you? After what you’ve written? The reality is, I would never be able to look you in the eye with any respect. Thus, I could never have a cordial conversation w/ you.

?

You are implying that because you are South American I have a problem with you. That couldn’t be further from the truth. I love South America, and can see myself living there one day, and the reason why is because, by and large, I love the people and the culture. I also LOVE the South American brand of football, and see some very valid reasons why our kids should be studying it and implementing it more here (while also stating, we have some uniquely Canadian traits that we damn well should use against that style of play and player, give me another John Catlif, please). No, I have a problem with you because you’re a cnut. Full stop.

Also, when did I say the lack of a DPL was the only problem? I actually stated it was ONE of the BIG problems, I also stated we have a big problem at the grassroots level.

Seriously, do you never read? You seem to completely fail to actually understand what is written, and I'm wondering if it is an ESL issue. I mean, you seem to be well weitten, I am assuming you can understand what you are reading. Am I wrong? Tell me I'm wrong, because then it would all make sense to me. Well, some of it...

I’ll repeat this for the very last time: I agree with the vast majority of what you write, but I have a huge bone of contention with the issues we disagree on. Simply put, you’re pretty exposed here; you aren’t nearly as well educated in this game, and the local environment / history, as you seem to think.

Once again:

You’re an idiot.
You’re an idiot.
You’re an idiot.
 

Soccer Coach

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Did you miss the part when I wrote this:




And this:



?

You are implying that because you are South American I have a problem with you. That couldn’t be further from the truth. I love South America, and can see myself living there one day, and the reason why is because, by and large, I love the people and the culture. I also LOVE the South American brand of football, and see some very valid reasons why our kids should be studying it and implementing it more here (while also stating, we have some uniquely Canadian traits that we damn well should use against that style of play and player, give me another John Catlif, please). No, I have a problem with you because you’re a cnut. Full stop.

Also, when did I say the lack of a DPL was the only problem? I actually stated it was ONE of the BIG problems, I also stated we have a big problem at the grassroots level.

Seriously, do you never read? You seem to completely fail to actually understand what is written, and I'm wondering if it is an ESL issue. I mean, you seem to be well weitten, I am assuming you can understand what you are reading. Am I wrong? Tell me I'm wrong, because then it would all make sense to me. Well, some of it...

I’ll repeat this for the very last time: I agree with the vast majority of what you write, but I have a huge bone of contention with the issues we disagree on. Simply put, you’re pretty exposed here; you aren’t nearly as well educated in this game, and the local environment / history, as you seem to think.

Once again:

You’re an idiot.
You’re an idiot.
You’re an idiot.

a) @Dude, is there any chance that you will stop the insults and concentrate on the ideas?
b) I am glad that you agree with 90% of the opinions. I am also glad that you disagree with 10%. Otherwise, no point in thinking and discussing about the issue.

"I have posted multiple times, and wrote to you in private, I agree with 90% of what you say. 90%! There are some areas where you and I disagree, and those areas are:

  1. You feel that our grassroots system is completely backwards, I disagree. Our results up to a certain age level prove, year after year, that the best of our youth compete with the best of the rest of the world on the world scale."
Yes, our grassroots system is inadequate and the crux of the problem. If you provide one concrete piece of evidence where you can show that Canadian kids at U10; U11; U12 are at par with Argentinean, Brazilian, Mexican and other countries in the Americas; then I a reconsider.

The evidence that I have seen so far from watching those kids to play there and here as well (either personally or through videos) is that there is already a significant difference in skill and ball control.

I showed you stats of the last U13 Concacaf Tournament even though, I know that Canadian kids at this age would have an advantage; they did not come even close to the top.
Just be open minded to the fact that the rest of the world might not see the game in the way that you see it.

The grassroots soccer in Canada is the crux of the problem. I know that this is not a pleasant idea to hear, because I reflects badly in almost everyone that is involved in the game at the youth level. This is the reality. We are already behind by U12.
 
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